Worse than an infidel

Lanolin · Feb 24, 2021

Is an infidel the WORST kind of person you can be in the Bible?
Cos there is someone even worse than an infidel in 1 Timothy 5:8

I just wonder about how those men who choose NOT to provide for their family can ever live it down. (Not just those who cant afford to, but stay even if they are struggling, but those that WONT even bother)
Like knowing that you've left your own children to possibly starve and your wife destitute and heartbroken. What does God do about these men? Aside from eternal punishment, does He do anything with them while they get off scot free on this earth

What do we call these men??

TheIndianGirl · Feb 24, 2021

In some cases, if the woman is making money, the husband thinks the woman should pay for the kids' expenses and that it is her responsibility. The husband feels he is exempt from contributing if the woman is working and especially if she is earning a decent income. The phenomena is common among divorced couples, and among more traditional men.

Dino246 · Feb 24, 2021

Lanolin said:

Well, rather than throwing just one gender under the bus, let's look at the context: not caring for your own family. In that culture, there was no welfare or social security, so widows were very vulnerable economically. Believers were to care for their own rather than allowing their needs to be the responsibility of the wider church.

Personally, I think Paul's comment, "worse than an unbeliever" is idiomatic, and is intended to show that such behaviour is completely inappropriate for a believer in Christ.

Runningman · Feb 24, 2021

Lanolin said:

I think you just used the Bible to vent your contempt for men. I've been surfing these boards for a while and this isn't your first time taking shots at men thinly veiled behind Bible discussion.

As far as I can tell, 1 Timothy 5:8 is addressed to believers in general, meaning that if you are a real Christian you'll provide material support like food clothing, and shelter for members of your family, especially widows.

In their culture if you were a widow then it spelled doom. There needed to be a man of the house to support a family. Many Biblical examples of this and even Jesus appointed one of His disciples to look after Mary shortly before He completed His sin offering on the cross.

Today, a single mother doesn't necessarily need a man to provide, at least in modern countries with welfare. Actually, Uncle Sam has more or less replaced the need for men. Single mothers usually get child support and a bonus tax stipend for having a child. Men, on the other hand, do not receive generosity and leniency with the same frequency that women do.

TheIndianGirl · Feb 24, 2021

I've seen quite a few Maury shows (primarily a paternity test show). It seems the women (many of whom are quite poor) are struggling and need a man to help with child care costs through child support; I presume they are already getting some state benefits. It seems state benefits alone are not enough (I doubt it covers toys, diapers, clothes, later on a bicycle, etc.).

RomanticRevolutionary · Feb 24, 2021

An infidel is one whom has no loyalty, literally one without fidelity. So indeed to be worse than an infidel is no good. These men are called the Sons of Worthlessness.

Though the men of these generations be very worthless men, consider also the women and their caliber, for it is written that the nature of the wicked kingdom is worthless men leading silly women laden with sins into diverse lusts together...... deceivers deceiving eachother.

kaylagrl · Feb 24, 2021

Runningman said:

I think you just used the Bible to vent your contempt for men. I've been surfing these boards for a while and this isn't your first time taking shots at men thinly veiled behind Bible discussion.

As far as I can tell, 1 Timothy 5:8 is addressed to believers in general, meaning that if you are a real Christian you'll provide material support like food clothing, and shelter for members of your family, especially widows.

In their culture if you were a widow then it spelled doom. There needed to be a man of the house to support a family. Many Biblical examples of this and even Jesus appointed one of His disciples to look after Mary shortly before He completed His sin offering on the cross.

Today, a single mother doesn't necessarily need a man to provide, at least in modern countries with welfare. Actually, Uncle Sam has more or less replaced the need for men. Single mothers usually get child support and a bonus tax stipend for having a child. Men, on the other hand, do not receive generosity and leniency with the same frequency that women do.

You'd agree that whether the gov't provides or not that a man needs to take care of his children financially.That is still his responsibility till the child is of age.

tourist · Feb 24, 2021

Lanolin said:

No one truly gets off scot free on this earth. A man's primary purpose, especially one with a family is to do their very best to provide for them. Such men that chose not to provide for their family probably don't sleep well at night. Those that do sleep well at night are the ones that are truly pathetic. What to call these men? Worthless comes to mind.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 24, 2021

Lanolin said:

You seem to have missed the point. "Infidel" means unbeliever, and Paul is addressing believers. So what he is saying is that if a believer neglects to provide for his family he is worse than an unbeliever who does provide for his family, even though he does not profess Christ. Which means that Christians are always held to a higher standard than non-Christians. Evidently some people were neglecting their duty to their families, and Paul had to insist that this was a sin. This has nothing to do with eternal punishment, since Paul was addressing those who had been saved by grace.

Blackpowderduelist · Feb 24, 2021

This also is not about the man who guts it out and stays and works and tries but never escapes financial poverty. This is about putting yourself first and abandoning the family even if you don't physically leave. There are many men and women for that matter who use up family resources on themselves, keeping their spouse and children in dire straights when they live it up. There are also lazy so and so's who live off their wife and family, and welfare, and charity rather support their family.
Paul's point is how shameful this is, and how we should regard them as shameful. It may even be grounds for sending them out from the congregation.

Edify · Feb 24, 2021

Runningman said:

You don't know her. You know nothing of what she may have been through. AAMOF, I could say you're venting on her doing this.

Runningman said:

Have you ever lived in the projects? You sound like you haven't. I have & I couldn't wait to get out. Some are spiritual strongholds, evil places.
You sound to me like a modern man who thinks women aren't doing their part in the marriage.

Don't rush to judgment so fast; it might come back & bite you.

Runningman · Feb 24, 2021

Edify said:

Just calling it like I see it.

Yes, I was born and raised in poverty. What's your point? You don't sound like you really have a point here.

Yeah? You mean like how you just rushed to judging me?

Blik · Feb 24, 2021

I don't think this scripture is limited to financial support, but to the meaning of the word "caring". God is love, and if we have God within us we reflect that love. Many people simply can't be bothered with their family when their age makes them too slow to keep up. It also speaks to those people who carry a grudge against their family because of slights they received as a child.

In the book "Prayer can Change You Life, Experiments and Techniques" by Parker, it tells of several healings brought about through giving up grudges so that sin does not interfere with communication with the Lord.

TheIndianGirl · Feb 25, 2021

Yes, I believe we should make sure our family is not homeless or starving, and we should be ready to help financially. Whether or not we allow the family (including the elderly) to stay in our home is another matter, sometime they can be a bad influence or have bad habits (porn addiction, alcoholism, etc.) or cause strife. I think some of these bad habits invite demonic presence into the home. Any thoughts on this?

Lanolin · Feb 25, 2021

TheIndianGirl said:

I think in those instance you dont kick them out but send them to a dedicated rehab facility. Some of the places cost a bit to run and often paid for by contributions but they do provide a bed and a roof over their head and food and proper care. You dont just leave them on the street to become even MORE addicted.

a lot of rehab places can deal with the issues by keeping people away from temptation, and providing alternative work so that they can deal with their issues. it takes time though, not a quick fix. Also many rehabs are places where they can hear the gospel.

Lanolin · Feb 25, 2021

sorry I dont mean to say the verse was specifically talking about husbands abandoning wives, but it seems to be about honoring widows...so is it the sons of widowed mothers not providing for their household?

It also mentions refusing younger widows. But the younger widows might actually have children or sons that arent old enough to work or provide yet? The rule seems to be only take those in who are over 60.

when it says widows are widows indeed, was it pointing towards women whos husbands actually DIED and didnt just leave them.

ok now am a bit confused. single mothers could be single because their husband died, making them widows or their husband had left them which meant they were not really widows.

1ofthem · Feb 25, 2021

Runningman said:

I agree with all of this except for maybe the last part. Seems there are many taking advantage of the system nowadays. Not just single. mothers, but also single fathers and even married families. Some people are lazy and just don't want to work and take care of their families so they would rather rely on handouts. While this is not always the case, some people are in actual need of assistance for various reasons, disabilities, no job opportunities, etc.

1ofthem · Feb 25, 2021

The Bible is against able bodied people laying around and taking handouts and living off others i.e. if you don't work then you don't eat, and if you don't provide for your family you are worse than an infidel, etc.

However, it is for helping those who can't help themselves. I think this includes children, elderly, disabled, or anyone who cannot provide for themselves. The responsibility first falls on the family, though. I have worked in the social service field all of my adult life. The state will first try to find family members who are able and willing to care for individuals. If they are unable to do so, then the state will step in. Most if not all of the time, the state will have to provide assistance because families are not willing to do so.

So I guess, that would make many people who are able to provide for their family members and don't worse than infidels especially those that have parents or other family members in nursing homes and care homes that are paid for by the state. I also don't think this scripture just applies to widows. This applies to anyone not taking care of their own families.

JaumeJ · Feb 25, 2021

There is mention of the culture of the time, and I see the culture of the times of the epistles as being blindfolds to the Godpel on many occasions.

Here for instance, why should there be a question of going to the aid of anyone when the occasion calls for it. Does not Love dictate we do our best given us to help family, friends or even strangers?

The times are bad, and frankly, they will only get worse if mankind has his way, so we should all buckle up and buckle down when ever possible. It is going to be a bit rough, but the outcome will be glorious.

Runningman · Feb 25, 2021

1ofthem said:

I agree with that

1ofthem said:

I said that last part just based off of what I have witnessed in the dating arena. Lots of single mothers who basically used men as a sperm donor with the intent of pivoting directly to the government and legal system to get monetary support. Maybe being a social worker you are well-acquainted with this.

That's why I think Uncle Sam has replaced men and I think it's intentionally designed to weaken the family unit.

Our family unity on a societal level is part of our strength. Among many other factors, government welfare divides and conquers families.

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