Unable To Attend, I Have A Severe Allergy Relating To The False Teachings Of John N. Darby And Adulterer C.I. Scofield, Better Known As Dispensationalism 
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The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:
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...and avoid verses that clearly point to the pretrib rapture...through some obsession with dead men
[one "key" I mentioned earlier in the thread: grasping what the "Day of the Lord" entails, and how Paul describes its ARRIVAL ('birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]"<--SAME thing Jesus spoke on IN His phrase "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" at the START of, not at the END of [such-and-such a TIME-PERIOD unfolding upon the earth, leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth ])]
])]
[quoting]
Harry Ironside - Not Wrath But Rapture -
[I'll insert my comments in brackets to clarify what I believe he is intending to say; bold and underline to emphasize some things] -
"... And it is in this way that the church will be kept from that hour of trial [Rev3:10]. Before the judgements fall the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, the dead in Christ will be raised, and the living saints changed, and we shall be snatched away, caught up to be with Him before the indignation is poured out on this guilty scene.
"Turn now to 2 Thessalonians 2. As we read it carefully, let us bear in mind what has already been before us. In order to see the viewpoint both of the apostle himself and of those to whom he was writing at that particular time, it will be well to consider certain facts that may be clearly deduced from a careful study of the entire letter. It is evident that the coming of the Lord had a large place in the hearts and minds of these particular saints. Some among them had become unbalanced on the subject, and were teaching that they were already entering into the time of great tribulation [that is, the tribulation period]. They believed that the day of the Lord was practically [that is, actually] upon them [that is, that they were IN IT and EXPERIENCING IT]. They were endeavoring to substantiate this teaching by the use of a forged letter purporting to come from the apostle Paul, and the advocates of this system declared that the Spirit had revealed these things to them. Therefore the saints were becoming unsettled, losing the blessedness of the hope of the Lord’s return [/coming] for His own. They feared they were already entering the great tribulation [/the tribulation period], and that the next event would be the coming of the Son of man.
"Notice carefully verses 1 and 2:
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.” The Revised Standard Version reads, “To the effect that the day of the Lord is just at hand.” The best manuscript authority authenticates this. The day of Christ is not the same thing as the day of the Lord. The day of Christ refers to the time when believers will stand in their glorified bodies at Christ’s judgement seat. But the day of the Lord is the time when His judgements will be poured out on the earth, and He will descend and take the kingdom. The apostle reminded these believers of what he had already written in his previous epistle. They were not to look for the day of the Lord but for the return [/coming] of our Saviour to deliver them from [ek] the coming wrath [1Th1:10]. So he pleaded with them in view of these facts, that “by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him,” we are not to be troubled or distressed, no matter what assertions others might make in regard to the day of trouble being already on us. The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him must take place before that time of distress can begin. This is exactly what we insist on today, we who do not believe that the church will go through the great tribulation [/through the tribulation period]. Our daily expectation is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him. This must precede the judgements. The day of the Lord cannot begin until after it [/our gathering-together UNTO HIM] takes place."
--Harry Ironside
[end quoting; bold and underline mine; inserted brackets mine]
____________
[again, "the DOTL" time-period ARRIVES with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" equal to what Jesus had ALREADY STATED about "birth PANGS [PLURAL]," and which are EQUIVALENT the "SEALS" (Rev6) IN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks of (i.e. the "future" aspects of that Book) which items KICK-OFF the tribulation period at its START; [2Th2] Paul informs, "that day [which v.2 referred to] will NOT be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [which v.1 referred to]..." (ONE THING must take place *FIRST*! Yes. Our EXIT / "our episynagoges UNTO HIM" / "to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR")]
Rev. 1:7 is synonymous with the following:
Matthew 24:30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory
You say that you have quoted many verses, but they have been misquoted, in that you, as well as others, are not recognizing the appearing of the Lord and the gathering of the church, as being a different event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which what both Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 is in reference to. The following scriptures belong together which are in reference to the gathering of the church and the Lord's returns to the earth to end the age:
The appearing of the Lord in the air to gather His church = 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Rev.3:10
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21
Once again, the error here is that you are confusing the event of the Lord's appearing to gather the church, with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. As long as you and others continue to not discern these as two separate events, your understanding of end-time events will be in error.
How is it that you quote some scriptures to prove your point, while ignoring others? What I mean is, you are ignoring a basic truth which is that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. And since God's wrath, in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then the church must be removed from the earth prior to God's wrath. Regarding God's wrath, this is what the scripture says:
"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of every believer. This is why we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did. However, you and others disregard this very important truth. It is a basic principle, a legal precedent.
This is something else that you and others misunderstand, which is that there is a difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would suffer because of our faith vs. God's coming unprecedented wrath. The former comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. While the latter will be God's direct wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will be causing. Again, believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
When the Lord came with the two angels to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, Abraham was concerned for Lot, who was living in Sodom, to which Abraham said the following:
"Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's wrath will be upon the entire world, then there will be no place to hide, no ark to get on and no small city to flee to. Shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out the Lord will return to the earth to end the age, with His church and His angels. At that time, the majority of the population on the earth will have been decimated and all human government will be dismantled.
You are consistent in misapplying scripture! The scripture above is in regards to "the children of your people" which would be referring to Israel and not the church. And again when it says "thy people shall be delivered" it is referring to the resurrection of the OT saints of Israel, not the church.
We are delivered/gathered before the storm, because the storm is God's coming wrath.
There are two groups mentioned in Revelation 7:
Rev.7:1-8 - The 144,000, the first fruits who come out of Israel
Rev.7:9-17 - The saints who come out of the great tribulation, which are from every nation, people, tribe and language, which makes them all Gentiles.
That said, it is the Gentile saints who come out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. The information regarding the 144,000 who come out of Israel ends at verse 8. Then verse 9 introduces a new group, which is the great tribulation saints.
Again, the 'elect' is referring to the nation Israel and the great tribulation saints who will have made it through the entire wrath of God alive.
First of all, the plagues of Egypt were not world-wide. And second, it was not God's intention to remove Israel from the earth, for then how could He keep His promise to give them the land He had promised them? The wrath that is coming via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, will affect the entire earth and there will be no where to hide. Furthermore, the word ekklesia/church is last used at the end of chapter 3 and is then never used again. It is never used within the narrative of God's wrath. That's because Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is changed and called up.
Again, you are correct, believers have and will suffer persecution, but not the wrath of God. You continue to make the common trials and tribulation equal with God's coming wrath and they are not the same. And you are correct in that, Jesus prayed that the Father would not take the disciples out of the world. For if He did, who would there have been to preach the gospel? Also, this saying does not mean that He will not take them out of the world, period. You see, we also have Jesus saying the following:
"Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?”
Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”
The meaning of this is that, they and all believers would follow Jesus in being resurrected and would go to the Father's house, so that where He is, we may be also.
The opening of the first seal is what initiates God's wrath and therefore, the church will be removed prior to that first seal being opened. You need to make a discernment between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have vs. God's coming wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.
Matthew 24:30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory
You say that you have quoted many verses, but they have been misquoted, in that you, as well as others, are not recognizing the appearing of the Lord and the gathering of the church, as being a different event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which what both Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 is in reference to. The following scriptures belong together which are in reference to the gathering of the church and the Lord's returns to the earth to end the age:
The appearing of the Lord in the air to gather His church = 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Rev.3:10
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21
Once again, the error here is that you are confusing the event of the Lord's appearing to gather the church, with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. As long as you and others continue to not discern these as two separate events, your understanding of end-time events will be in error.
How is it that you quote some scriptures to prove your point, while ignoring others? What I mean is, you are ignoring a basic truth which is that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. And since God's wrath, in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then the church must be removed from the earth prior to God's wrath. Regarding God's wrath, this is what the scripture says:
"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of every believer. This is why we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did. However, you and others disregard this very important truth. It is a basic principle, a legal precedent.
This is something else that you and others misunderstand, which is that there is a difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would suffer because of our faith vs. God's coming unprecedented wrath. The former comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. While the latter will be God's direct wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will be causing. Again, believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
When the Lord came with the two angels to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, Abraham was concerned for Lot, who was living in Sodom, to which Abraham said the following:
"Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's wrath will be upon the entire world, then there will be no place to hide, no ark to get on and no small city to flee to. Shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out the Lord will return to the earth to end the age, with His church and His angels. At that time, the majority of the population on the earth will have been decimated and all human government will be dismantled.
You are consistent in misapplying scripture! The scripture above is in regards to "the children of your people" which would be referring to Israel and not the church. And again when it says "thy people shall be delivered" it is referring to the resurrection of the OT saints of Israel, not the church.
We are delivered/gathered before the storm, because the storm is God's coming wrath.
There are two groups mentioned in Revelation 7:
Rev.7:1-8 - The 144,000, the first fruits who come out of Israel
Rev.7:9-17 - The saints who come out of the great tribulation, which are from every nation, people, tribe and language, which makes them all Gentiles.
That said, it is the Gentile saints who come out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. The information regarding the 144,000 who come out of Israel ends at verse 8. Then verse 9 introduces a new group, which is the great tribulation saints.
Again, the 'elect' is referring to the nation Israel and the great tribulation saints who will have made it through the entire wrath of God alive.
First of all, the plagues of Egypt were not world-wide. And second, it was not God's intention to remove Israel from the earth, for then how could He keep His promise to give them the land He had promised them? The wrath that is coming via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, will affect the entire earth and there will be no where to hide. Furthermore, the word ekklesia/church is last used at the end of chapter 3 and is then never used again. It is never used within the narrative of God's wrath. That's because Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is changed and called up.
Again, you are correct, believers have and will suffer persecution, but not the wrath of God. You continue to make the common trials and tribulation equal with God's coming wrath and they are not the same. And you are correct in that, Jesus prayed that the Father would not take the disciples out of the world. For if He did, who would there have been to preach the gospel? Also, this saying does not mean that He will not take them out of the world, period. You see, we also have Jesus saying the following:
"Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?”
Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”
The meaning of this is that, they and all believers would follow Jesus in being resurrected and would go to the Father's house, so that where He is, we may be also.
The opening of the first seal is what initiates God's wrath and therefore, the church will be removed prior to that first seal being opened. You need to make a discernment between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have vs. God's coming wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.
Correct. It is very revealing when people attack other Christians without reason. It shows that they have nothing to support their false beliefs.
I believe it is the devil himself who desperately wants people to believe (1) that born-again believers can lose their salvation and (2) that the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture promised by Christ in John 14 is not a fundamental Bible doctrine. Satan hates the finished work of Christ and the fact that salvation is by grace through faith plus nothing.
The Resurrection/Rapture is the culmination of salvation, when all the saints are perfected and glorified, while the Lake of Fire awaits the devil and his angels.
I believe it is the devil himself who desperately wants people to believe (1) that born-again believers can lose their salvation and (2) that the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture promised by Christ in John 14 is not a fundamental Bible doctrine. Satan hates the finished work of Christ and the fact that salvation is by grace through faith plus nothing.
The Resurrection/Rapture is the culmination of salvation, when all the saints are perfected and glorified, while the Lake of Fire awaits the devil and his angels.
And yet, even those of us who are "pre-tribbers" grasp that there WILL BE "believers" existing on the earth DURING the trib years (who will be "coming to faith" FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and who will exist on the earth during the Seals, Trumpets, Vials... and some will even make it clear through to the end of the trib years ['still-living'] and enter the MK age in their mortal bodies; Dan12:12 for example, among many other passages speaking of this).
You seem to be expressing that there will be NO BELIEVERS WHATSOEVER existing on the earth during the trib years.
You seem to be expressing that there will be NO BELIEVERS WHATSOEVER existing on the earth during the trib years.
Good day!
I am not expressing that at all and never have in any of my posts. I have always taught that there will be those great tribulation saints, introduced in chapter 7, who will make it through the entire tribulation keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. These are those, who along with the remnant of Israel, will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.
What gave you the idea that I was expressing that there would be no believers whatsoever? Just curious, because I would never say that.
I am not expressing that at all and never have in any of my posts. I have always taught that there will be those great tribulation saints, introduced in chapter 7, who will make it through the entire tribulation keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. These are those, who along with the remnant of Israel, will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.
What gave you the idea that I was expressing that there would be no believers whatsoever? Just curious, because I would never say that.
@Absolutely , no I wasn't thinking of *your* viewpoint (which has all believers who will be existing in the trib years as DYING / MARTYRED, all)...
When I said (to Ahwatukee):
... I was referring to his [relatively clear] statement saying:
"God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of every believer. This is why we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did."
... where he is making the point as to WHY *we* will NOT be existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs [i.e. the Wrath] (which I agree we will not be); but this does not explain why there WILL BE "saints [/ believers]" existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, as we all agree there WILL BE (though each view explains just "who" said "saints / believers" will be, distinctly).
I think "post-tribbers" perceive that [what he is saying] as merely someone "talking out of both sides of their mouth" or contradicting themselves (without "explanation"), and they think to themselves: "there's NO WAY I'm going to be persuaded by that 'non-sensical' explanation, ever."
Since "God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of EVERY BELIEVER," then (post-tribbers ask) WHY are there indeed "saints / believers" being shown to exist IN / DURING / WITHIN those very "wrath" years we say make up the ENTIRE tribulation period (Seals, Trumpets, Vials<--which IS correct, they do). Why are THOSE "saints / believers" not included in his phrase "[on behalf of] EVERY BELIEVER... [because JESUS ALREADY DID]" when explaining "why WE will NOT be present in the trib yrs". This is a "non-sensical" explanation to the "post-tribbers" (etc) reading this.
That's what I was referring to... though I ALSO disagree with you (Abs) that EVERY "saint / believer" who will be existing in the trib will BE KILLED in the trib years (Dan12:12 is just one verse showing otherwise, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days"<--corresponding to about 7-8 other "BLESSED" verses speaking to the SAME issue and time-slot).
Oh well, anyway... carry on! = )
When I said (to Ahwatukee):
... I was referring to his [relatively clear] statement saying:
"God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of every believer. This is why we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did."
... where he is making the point as to WHY *we* will NOT be existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs [i.e. the Wrath] (which I agree we will not be); but this does not explain why there WILL BE "saints [/ believers]" existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, as we all agree there WILL BE (though each view explains just "who" said "saints / believers" will be, distinctly).
I think "post-tribbers" perceive that [what he is saying] as merely someone "talking out of both sides of their mouth" or contradicting themselves (without "explanation"), and they think to themselves: "there's NO WAY I'm going to be persuaded by that 'non-sensical' explanation, ever."
Since "God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of EVERY BELIEVER," then (post-tribbers ask) WHY are there indeed "saints / believers" being shown to exist IN / DURING / WITHIN those very "wrath" years we say make up the ENTIRE tribulation period (Seals, Trumpets, Vials<--which IS correct, they do). Why are THOSE "saints / believers" not included in his phrase "[on behalf of] EVERY BELIEVER... [because JESUS ALREADY DID]" when explaining "why WE will NOT be present in the trib yrs". This is a "non-sensical" explanation to the "post-tribbers" (etc) reading this.
That's what I was referring to... though I ALSO disagree with you (Abs) that EVERY "saint / believer" who will be existing in the trib will BE KILLED in the trib years (Dan12:12 is just one verse showing otherwise, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days"<--corresponding to about 7-8 other "BLESSED" verses speaking to the SAME issue and time-slot).Oh well, anyway... carry on! = )
@Absolutely , no I wasn't thinking of *your* viewpoint (which has all believers who will be existing in the trib years as DYING / MARTYRED, all)...
When I said (to Ahwatukee):
... I was referring to his [relatively clear] statement saying:
"God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of every believer. This is why we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did."
... where he is making the point as to WHY *we* will NOT be existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs [i.e. the Wrath] (which I agree we will not be); but this does not explain why there WILL BE "saints [/ believers]" existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, as we all agree there WILL BE (though each view explains just "who" said "saints / believers" will be, distinctly).
I think "post-tribbers" perceive that [what he is saying] as merely someone "talking out of both sides of their mouth" or contradicting themselves (without "explanation"), and they think to themselves: "there's NO WAY I'm going to be persuaded by that 'non-sensical' explanation, ever."
Since "God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of EVERY BELIEVER," then (post-tribbers ask) WHY are there indeed "saints / believers" being shown to exist IN / DURING / WITHIN those very "wrath" years we say make up the ENTIRE tribulation period (Seals, Trumpets, Vials<--which IS correct, they do). Why are THOSE "saints / believers" not included in his phrase "[on behalf of] EVERY BELIEVER... [because JESUS ALREADY DID]" when explaining "why WE will NOT be present in the trib yrs". This is a "non-sensical" explanation to the "post-tribbers" (etc) reading this.
That's what I was referring to... though I ALSO disagree with you (Abs) that EVERY "saint / believer" who will be existing in the trib will BE KILLED in the trib years (Dan12:12 is just one verse showing otherwise, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days"<--corresponding to about 7-8 other "BLESSED" verses speaking to the SAME issue and time-slot).
Oh well, anyway... carry on! = )
When I said (to Ahwatukee):
... I was referring to his [relatively clear] statement saying:
"God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of every believer. This is why we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did."
... where he is making the point as to WHY *we* will NOT be existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs [i.e. the Wrath] (which I agree we will not be); but this does not explain why there WILL BE "saints [/ believers]" existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, as we all agree there WILL BE (though each view explains just "who" said "saints / believers" will be, distinctly).
I think "post-tribbers" perceive that [what he is saying] as merely someone "talking out of both sides of their mouth" or contradicting themselves (without "explanation"), and they think to themselves: "there's NO WAY I'm going to be persuaded by that 'non-sensical' explanation, ever."
Since "God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of EVERY BELIEVER," then (post-tribbers ask) WHY are there indeed "saints / believers" being shown to exist IN / DURING / WITHIN those very "wrath" years we say make up the ENTIRE tribulation period (Seals, Trumpets, Vials<--which IS correct, they do). Why are THOSE "saints / believers" not included in his phrase "[on behalf of] EVERY BELIEVER... [because JESUS ALREADY DID]" when explaining "why WE will NOT be present in the trib yrs". This is a "non-sensical" explanation to the "post-tribbers" (etc) reading this.
That's what I was referring to... though I ALSO disagree with you (Abs) that EVERY "saint / believer" who will be existing in the trib will BE KILLED in the trib years (Dan12:12 is just one verse showing otherwise, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days"<--corresponding to about 7-8 other "BLESSED" verses speaking to the SAME issue and time-slot).Oh well, anyway... carry on! = )
Ok, somehow I end up responding to 'Absolutely,' which I still can't figure out how that happened. So, I am reposting this:
Good day!
I am not expressing that at all and never have in any of my posts. I have always taught that there will be those great tribulation saints, introduced in chapter 7, who will make it through the entire tribulation keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. These are those, who along with the remnant of Israel, will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.
What gave you the idea that I was expressing that there would be no believers whatsoever? Just curious, because I would never say that.
Good day!
I am not expressing that at all and never have in any of my posts. I have always taught that there will be those great tribulation saints, introduced in chapter 7, who will make it through the entire tribulation keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. These are those, who along with the remnant of Israel, will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.
What gave you the idea that I was expressing that there would be no believers whatsoever? Just curious, because I would never say that.
But since you brought it up, how could you make the claim that everyone of the great tribulation saints are killed during the tribulation?
If that were to happen, then there would be no Gentiles left in their immortal bodies to enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth. However, we have plenty of scripture that reveals that the righteous who make it through the tribulation alive, will indeed enter into the millennial kingdom.
"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."
'Nations' would be referring to Gentiles, i.e. other than Israel. The scripture above will take place after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
It is true that in the middle of the seven years until the end, the beast will be given power to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. However, this will not happen to each and every one of them. For some will make it through the entire tribulation, alive.
============================================================
"If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed.
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints."
============================================================
Therefore though the beast will kill many of them, he doesn't kill all of them, else there would be none to go into captivity.
It's like saying 'the punishment for speeding is a hefty fine.' However, not everyone is caught speeding.
If that were to happen, then there would be no Gentiles left in their immortal bodies to enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth. However, we have plenty of scripture that reveals that the righteous who make it through the tribulation alive, will indeed enter into the millennial kingdom.
"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."
'Nations' would be referring to Gentiles, i.e. other than Israel. The scripture above will take place after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
It is true that in the middle of the seven years until the end, the beast will be given power to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. However, this will not happen to each and every one of them. For some will make it through the entire tribulation, alive.
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"If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed.
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints."
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Therefore though the beast will kill many of them, he doesn't kill all of them, else there would be none to go into captivity.
It's like saying 'the punishment for speeding is a hefty fine.' However, not everyone is caught speeding.
you said i was mixing up two events. The coming of Jesus in great glory. and the secret rapture.
i find no evidence for the secret rapture. it is a fairy tale invented by people in the past.
But the reason why you think they are a separate thing is because the wrath of God is not poured out on the saved.
The final judgements are different to the everyday trials in that men create these for each other, but the example of Israel in Egypt is not that different and the flood is not that different. We have examples from the past where God poured out His wrath on mankind and saved His people through the trials. Jesus is my ark to come through the trials.
Can God save His people through the trials? Can Gods people be protected from Gods wrath? The blood above the door (the pass over)....
As Christians that are confident in Jesus and confident in His salvation they are not fearful of the coming trials. No fear in Gods perfect love.
You are contradicting yourself in that Gods people can not be here for the final wrath and yet people will be saved in that final wrath.
i find no evidence for the secret rapture. it is a fairy tale invented by people in the past.
But the reason why you think they are a separate thing is because the wrath of God is not poured out on the saved.
The final judgements are different to the everyday trials in that men create these for each other, but the example of Israel in Egypt is not that different and the flood is not that different. We have examples from the past where God poured out His wrath on mankind and saved His people through the trials. Jesus is my ark to come through the trials.
Can God save His people through the trials? Can Gods people be protected from Gods wrath? The blood above the door (the pass over)....
As Christians that are confident in Jesus and confident in His salvation they are not fearful of the coming trials. No fear in Gods perfect love.
You are contradicting yourself in that Gods people can not be here for the final wrath and yet people will be saved in that final wrath.
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The gathering of the church or rapture as you call it, is not a fairy tale, but a promise from the Lord. It is simply the Lord coming to remove His church prior to the pouring out of His world-wide wrath. People usually use the word 'secret' to discredit the Lord's gathering, i.e. to make it sound silly. The fact is that, because Jesus already suffered God's wrath, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer.
It is not that I think that they are separate events, but scripture demonstrates that they are. The examples of Noah and the flood and Israel in Egypt are not comparable to the world-wide wrath that is coming. The gathering of the church is a blessed event which the Lord told every believer to be always watching for. You and other however, are not looking for the Lord's appearing to gather His church, but are first looking for God's wrath.
In John 14:1-3, Jesus said that He was going to prepare places for us in the Father's house, which is none other than heaven. Then He said that he would come back to get us to take us there, so that we could be where He is. But before the Lord made this promise He said, "Don't let your hearts be troubled." If believers were to first go through the Lord's wrath, it would definitely be reason for our hearts to be troubled.
When Paul gave his detailed account of the Lord's gathering of the church in I Thess.4:13-17, in verse 18 he says regarding this event "therefore, comfort each other with these words." Likewise, when writing to Titus, he referred to the Lord's appearing and our being gathered as "the blessed hope." By your claim that the church remains on the earth during the time of God's wrath, there would be no reason to comfort each other and it would be no blessed hope. You and others have the church going through the same wrath as the wicked.
Those who believe in the Lord's promise are looking for the Lord's imminent appearing to gather His church and prior to His wrath, because scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. While those who believe that the church is going to be gathered when the Lord returns to end the age, are looking not for the Lord's imminent return, but for His wrath first. Consider the following:
At the sounding of the first trumpet, a third of the earth and trees are burned up. If the church were upon the earth, they would certainly be exposed to this plague.
At the sounding of the 5th trumpet, an angel having the key to the Abyss unlocks it and releases demonic beings resembling locusts upon the earth, having tails and stings like that of a scorpion. They are commanded to only torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. The only group that is excluded from this plague of wrath, are those who have the seal of God on their foreheads, which is referring to those 144,000 Israelites who will have been sealed in Revelation 7:1-8. Every other person on the planet will be exposed to this plague of wrath, which would include the church if it was on the earth during that time. Now, just in cast you are going to use the existing false apologetic stating that it is talking about the church being sealed with the Holy Spirit, it is not. But is specifically referring to those 144,000 who are sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads at the beginning of that first 3 1/2 years. The church of course, is nowhere mentioned anywhere in the narrative of God's wrath.
Another example would be when the 4th bowl is poured out on the sun, which gives it power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with fire and sears them with intense heat. If the church were on the earth, they would definitely be exposed to that plague of wrath as well.
With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet (a fourth and a third respectively), over half the earths population will have been killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not counting the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the seven bowl judgments. By the time the Lord returns to the earth, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled. This is supported by when the Lord said(and I paraphrase), 'If those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one one the earth would survive. And you and others believe and teach that the Lord is going to put His church through this?
It is easier for the Lord to fulfill His promise by removing His church so that He can pour out His wrath, rather than work around them on the earth while He is pouring it out.
But regardless of these example, you fail to recognize the Lord's fulfillment of God's wrath on behalf of every believer. As Isaiah says, "the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him."
Your belief that the Lord is going to put His bride through His wrath, is just a matter of not understanding what Christ did for us and who we are in Christ. As well as not understanding the difference between common trials and tribulations vs. God's coming wrath.
The righteous who will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, will be those who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time period of God's wrath. This will take place because they will have not been believers in Christ prior to the church being gathered. It will also include believers who will have wandered away from the truth and will have gone back into the world and willfully living according to the sinful nature. This group is introduced in Revelation 7:9-17 as those which no man can count, which the elder refers to as the saints who come out of the great tribulation. This group is never referred to as the church. it is these who will be exposed to God's wrath and that because they will have not been believers prior to the church being gathered.
I would suggest to you an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and then ask yourself the question of whether or not the Lord will put His church through all of that.
For you and others, the wrath of God must come first, with the gathering of the church taking place afterwards. But for those who believe in the Lord's promise and know His nature, we look for His imminent appearing to gather us prior to the outpouring of His wrath.
It is not that I think that they are separate events, but scripture demonstrates that they are. The examples of Noah and the flood and Israel in Egypt are not comparable to the world-wide wrath that is coming. The gathering of the church is a blessed event which the Lord told every believer to be always watching for. You and other however, are not looking for the Lord's appearing to gather His church, but are first looking for God's wrath.
In John 14:1-3, Jesus said that He was going to prepare places for us in the Father's house, which is none other than heaven. Then He said that he would come back to get us to take us there, so that we could be where He is. But before the Lord made this promise He said, "Don't let your hearts be troubled." If believers were to first go through the Lord's wrath, it would definitely be reason for our hearts to be troubled.
When Paul gave his detailed account of the Lord's gathering of the church in I Thess.4:13-17, in verse 18 he says regarding this event "therefore, comfort each other with these words." Likewise, when writing to Titus, he referred to the Lord's appearing and our being gathered as "the blessed hope." By your claim that the church remains on the earth during the time of God's wrath, there would be no reason to comfort each other and it would be no blessed hope. You and others have the church going through the same wrath as the wicked.
Those who believe in the Lord's promise are looking for the Lord's imminent appearing to gather His church and prior to His wrath, because scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. While those who believe that the church is going to be gathered when the Lord returns to end the age, are looking not for the Lord's imminent return, but for His wrath first. Consider the following:
At the sounding of the first trumpet, a third of the earth and trees are burned up. If the church were upon the earth, they would certainly be exposed to this plague.
At the sounding of the 5th trumpet, an angel having the key to the Abyss unlocks it and releases demonic beings resembling locusts upon the earth, having tails and stings like that of a scorpion. They are commanded to only torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. The only group that is excluded from this plague of wrath, are those who have the seal of God on their foreheads, which is referring to those 144,000 Israelites who will have been sealed in Revelation 7:1-8. Every other person on the planet will be exposed to this plague of wrath, which would include the church if it was on the earth during that time. Now, just in cast you are going to use the existing false apologetic stating that it is talking about the church being sealed with the Holy Spirit, it is not. But is specifically referring to those 144,000 who are sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads at the beginning of that first 3 1/2 years. The church of course, is nowhere mentioned anywhere in the narrative of God's wrath.
Another example would be when the 4th bowl is poured out on the sun, which gives it power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with fire and sears them with intense heat. If the church were on the earth, they would definitely be exposed to that plague of wrath as well.
With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet (a fourth and a third respectively), over half the earths population will have been killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not counting the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the seven bowl judgments. By the time the Lord returns to the earth, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled. This is supported by when the Lord said(and I paraphrase), 'If those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one one the earth would survive. And you and others believe and teach that the Lord is going to put His church through this?
It is easier for the Lord to fulfill His promise by removing His church so that He can pour out His wrath, rather than work around them on the earth while He is pouring it out.
But regardless of these example, you fail to recognize the Lord's fulfillment of God's wrath on behalf of every believer. As Isaiah says, "the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him."
Your belief that the Lord is going to put His bride through His wrath, is just a matter of not understanding what Christ did for us and who we are in Christ. As well as not understanding the difference between common trials and tribulations vs. God's coming wrath.
The righteous who will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, will be those who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time period of God's wrath. This will take place because they will have not been believers in Christ prior to the church being gathered. It will also include believers who will have wandered away from the truth and will have gone back into the world and willfully living according to the sinful nature. This group is introduced in Revelation 7:9-17 as those which no man can count, which the elder refers to as the saints who come out of the great tribulation. This group is never referred to as the church. it is these who will be exposed to God's wrath and that because they will have not been believers prior to the church being gathered.
I would suggest to you an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and then ask yourself the question of whether or not the Lord will put His church through all of that.
For you and others, the wrath of God must come first, with the gathering of the church taking place afterwards. But for those who believe in the Lord's promise and know His nature, we look for His imminent appearing to gather us prior to the outpouring of His wrath.