50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Okay, then let me just ask you about the first one (of what I listed):
--where Jesus said (Matt24:21,15) "the abomination [SINGULAR] of desolation [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet"... was ONLY "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" IN THE "SINGULAR" in TWO places... one place referring to Antiochus Epiphanes, and the other (the only other place, in the SINGULAR) being in Dan12:11... in a context surrounded by a number of clues... like Daniel being told he will "rest [that is, in death] and stand in thy lot [i.e. be resurrected (defined as 'to stand again' on the earth)] at the END of the days" [at the END of the "days" mentioned IN THAT CONTEXT]... which doesn't fit either the time-period of A4E nor the events of 70ad... but which, when considering the entire CONTEXT *does* correlate (at many points) with "yet FUTURE" events (like how Dan12:1-4,10 parallels Ezek37:12-14,20-23 and Hos5:14-6:3 and Isa26:14-21 and Rom11:15[25-29], etc etc... ALL regarding Israel's "future" [future yet, even to us], and ALL passages which LIKEN this [re: Israel] UNTO "a resurrection" [not speaking of a "physical/bodily resurrection from being previously physically dead," but rather "Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where SCATTERED" ("sow [/sown]... UNTO THE EARTH")])...
...In view of the above: my question to you is, why do you NOT connect Jesus' very specific words here in Matt24:21,15 back to the ONLY reference to "abomination / desolation [SINGULAR]" in Daniel (of only 2 choices) that "fits" [namely, Dan12:11]? (since the one regarding A4E clearly does NOT "fit," being "past history")
--where Jesus said (Matt24:21,15) "the abomination [SINGULAR] of desolation [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet"... was ONLY "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" IN THE "SINGULAR" in TWO places... one place referring to Antiochus Epiphanes, and the other (the only other place, in the SINGULAR) being in Dan12:11... in a context surrounded by a number of clues... like Daniel being told he will "rest [that is, in death] and stand in thy lot [i.e. be resurrected (defined as 'to stand again' on the earth)] at the END of the days" [at the END of the "days" mentioned IN THAT CONTEXT]... which doesn't fit either the time-period of A4E nor the events of 70ad... but which, when considering the entire CONTEXT *does* correlate (at many points) with "yet FUTURE" events (like how Dan12:1-4,10 parallels Ezek37:12-14,20-23 and Hos5:14-6:3 and Isa26:14-21 and Rom11:15[25-29], etc etc... ALL regarding Israel's "future" [future yet, even to us], and ALL passages which LIKEN this [re: Israel] UNTO "a resurrection" [not speaking of a "physical/bodily resurrection from being previously physically dead," but rather "Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where SCATTERED" ("sow [/sown]... UNTO THE EARTH")])...
...In view of the above: my question to you is, why do you NOT connect Jesus' very specific words here in Matt24:21,15 back to the ONLY reference to "abomination / desolation [SINGULAR]" in Daniel (of only 2 choices) that "fits" [namely, Dan12:11]? (since the one regarding A4E clearly does NOT "fit," being "past history")
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You still just don't get it - do you????? 
The GT includes everything ("trouble") from the ~70 A.D. events at Jerusalem until the end of the GT - which is future...
(And --- the worst is yet to come.)
The GT includes everything ("trouble") from the ~70 A.D. events at Jerusalem until the end of the GT - which is future...
(And --- the worst is yet to come.)
When you have given a satisfactory answer to my questions in post #122, I will think about it...
GaryA: Unanswered In Diversion
Question: Gary openly admit to the forum, you dont believe in a future (Little Horn) (Man Of Sin) or (The Beast) please correct me if I'm wrong?
I agree that Daniel 11:31;12:11 refer directly to the AoD - and that - Daniel 9:27 does not.
Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are making an indirect reference to the AoD.
What these verses are not saying:
"When you see the AoD - that Daniel spoke of - take-place-before-your-eyes - then ..."
They had already seen it take place back in 167 B.C.
What took place in 167 B.C. is described in direct terms in Luke 21:20 - 'Jerusalem compassed with armies' and 'the desolation of Jerusalem'.
What the Matthew and Mark verses are saying is more like:
"When you see what took place at the event that Daniel spoke of [about to take place again], then..."
The Olivet Discourse verses are not referring to a future not-yet-occurred event; rather, they are making reference to a past event that the Jews knew very well...
Hence, the parenthetical statements in Matthew and Mark.
What was being said 'encoded' in Matthew and Mark was said 'decoded' in Luke.
Luke 21:20-23 is saying exactly the same thing as Matthew 24:15-19 and Mark 13:14-17.
Three accounts of the same discourse.
No part of Luke's account is any different from that of Matthew and Mark.
Three accounts of the same discourse.
What is described in these verses occurred circa 70 A.D.
Hence - the start of the GT.
Luke 21:24 is a major clue concerning the scope of the span of time of the GT - and, corresponds to/with Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20.
The shortening of the days is at the end of the GT - in our future.
Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are making an indirect reference to the AoD.
What these verses are not saying:
"When you see the AoD - that Daniel spoke of - take-place-before-your-eyes - then ..."
They had already seen it take place back in 167 B.C.
What took place in 167 B.C. is described in direct terms in Luke 21:20 - 'Jerusalem compassed with armies' and 'the desolation of Jerusalem'.
What the Matthew and Mark verses are saying is more like:
"When you see what took place at the event that Daniel spoke of [about to take place again], then..."
The Olivet Discourse verses are not referring to a future not-yet-occurred event; rather, they are making reference to a past event that the Jews knew very well...
Hence, the parenthetical statements in Matthew and Mark.
What was being said 'encoded' in Matthew and Mark was said 'decoded' in Luke.
Luke 21:20-23 is saying exactly the same thing as Matthew 24:15-19 and Mark 13:14-17.
Three accounts of the same discourse.
No part of Luke's account is any different from that of Matthew and Mark.
Three accounts of the same discourse.
What is described in these verses occurred circa 70 A.D.
Hence - the start of the GT.
Luke 21:24 is a major clue concerning the scope of the span of time of the GT - and, corresponds to/with Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20.
The shortening of the days is at the end of the GT - in our future.
Your claim is false, Luke adds to the discourse, thanks for the highlight in fear of your teaching being exposed.
Luke openly states the church will be present on earth to witness the future great tribulation and second coming, a (Fact)
Historicism in Preterism, a false teaching, let the shiny object go.
Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke openly states the church will be present on earth to witness the future great tribulation and second coming, a (Fact)
Historicism in Preterism, a false teaching, let the shiny object go.
Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Your claim is false, Luke adds to the discourse, thanks for the highlight in fear of your teaching being exposed.
Luke openly states the church will be present on earth to witness the future great tribulation and second coming, a (Fact)
Historicism in Preterism, a false teaching, let the shiny object go.
Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke openly states the church will be present on earth to witness the future great tribulation and second coming, a (Fact)
Historicism in Preterism, a false teaching, let the shiny object go.
Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Okay, let me see if I "get" your viewpoint:
--you do believe Jesus was speaking of something "future" to the time He spoke it (and thus "future" to when the disciples heard Him say it), namely, the events surrounding 70ad;
--you believe Jesus' words saying "[see] the abomination of desolation STANDING in the holy place" speaks of "[see] Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh" (70ad events)... and that this speaks to the SAME item that Dan12:11's "abomination that maketh desolate SET UP [H5414 - 'give, put, set,... appoint, assign'] [shall be such-and-such day amounts... which you believe specifically refers to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, and nothing later than that point in history/future... only that the (then-future) 70ad events will be a kind of repeat of the events surrounding A4E in (approx) 167bc]";
--you believe that Daniel's being told he will "stand in thy lot at the END of the DAYS" has no real relation to the "days" referred to in that context (Dan12), which "days" (12:6-7, and other verses) you see referring solely to the "days" that A4E existed on the earth (approx 167bc)... IOW, that the "DAYS" mentioned in 12:13 have NO RELATION TO the day-amounts (in the "how long?" question-and-answer) of vv.6-7;
--you believe that v.12's "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" speaks only of the events surrounding 167bc / A4E? (nothing "future" to the time of Jesus' earthly ministry)
--you do believe that "the beginning of birth PANGS" in all three Olivet Discourse passages speak of the SAME TIME / EVENTS (as do I)--Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 = 'the beginning of birth PANGS';
--you believe the idea being expressed JUST FOLLOWING that ^ , in Luke 21:12, "But BEFORE ALL THESE [meaning, "But BEFORE ALL THESE 'BEGINNING OF BIRTH PANGS' just listed in vv.8-11 of Lk21"]... (you believe) that same idea ("But BEFORE ALL THESE") is expressed in ALL THREE of these Olivet Discourse passages (which I do NOT believe... Instead, I see Matt and Mark starting out of the gate AT "the beginning of birth pangs" and then GOING ON to tell what FOLLOWS ON from THOSE [i.e. which would be MANY MORE "birth PANGS" if THOSE were just "THE BEGINNING OF" them]);
--either you see NO relation to Jesus' phrase "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" to Paul's use of the term "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" regarding the manner in which "the DOTL" will ARRIVE; or else you do see the relation between their both using these terms, but believe they were both speaking of the "near-future" events of 70ad (so that, "the DOTL" time-period ARRIVED back in the events surrounding 70ad, and thus also "the man of sin" / "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" 2Th2:9a [at that time, meaning, in the 70ad events])?
--you believe that the "man of sin" is in no way related to the passage about "the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [future tense]" in Rev17:8b (at the time Rev was written)?... or that you do see some relation / connection?
--you see no connection whatsoever (in a literal sense) between the Daniel 7:20-25[27],11 passage and that of Rev13:5-7[1], but perhaps only as a type (for the future, from past history)? IOW, the phrase "Daniel the prophet" refers only to the fact that he was able to record/write down what God wanted to be written, but that nothing he wrote actually referred to anything "far-future" to him (basically only the events surrounding A4E / approx 167bc and other "past-history" events, from the perspective of the time of Jesus and His disciples in the first century)... and that "seal up... even to the the time of the end" (re: the writings of that "book") just meant, "so that others can later read about these events as you have recorded them"? "seal up... even to..." and then "knowledge shall be increased" (v.4) seems to imply that "knowledge" about what is written within this "book" will come to be "understood" at some point (v.10 "the WISE WILL understand")... what [point in time] are you thinking this referred to?
--well... I had more thoughts, but I've run outta gas (for typing) atm , and will have to take this up at another time... just trying to understand your take on some of these issues, a little better
Thanks for the discussion. = )
--you do believe Jesus was speaking of something "future" to the time He spoke it (and thus "future" to when the disciples heard Him say it), namely, the events surrounding 70ad;
--you believe Jesus' words saying "[see] the abomination of desolation STANDING in the holy place" speaks of "[see] Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh" (70ad events)... and that this speaks to the SAME item that Dan12:11's "abomination that maketh desolate SET UP [H5414 - 'give, put, set,... appoint, assign'] [shall be such-and-such day amounts... which you believe specifically refers to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, and nothing later than that point in history/future... only that the (then-future) 70ad events will be a kind of repeat of the events surrounding A4E in (approx) 167bc]";
--you believe that Daniel's being told he will "stand in thy lot at the END of the DAYS" has no real relation to the "days" referred to in that context (Dan12), which "days" (12:6-7, and other verses) you see referring solely to the "days" that A4E existed on the earth (approx 167bc)... IOW, that the "DAYS" mentioned in 12:13 have NO RELATION TO the day-amounts (in the "how long?" question-and-answer) of vv.6-7;
--you believe that v.12's "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" speaks only of the events surrounding 167bc / A4E? (nothing "future" to the time of Jesus' earthly ministry)
--you do believe that "the beginning of birth PANGS" in all three Olivet Discourse passages speak of the SAME TIME / EVENTS (as do I)--Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 = 'the beginning of birth PANGS';
--you believe the idea being expressed JUST FOLLOWING that ^ , in Luke 21:12, "But BEFORE ALL THESE [meaning, "But BEFORE ALL THESE 'BEGINNING OF BIRTH PANGS' just listed in vv.8-11 of Lk21"]... (you believe) that same idea ("But BEFORE ALL THESE") is expressed in ALL THREE of these Olivet Discourse passages (which I do NOT believe... Instead, I see Matt and Mark starting out of the gate AT "the beginning of birth pangs" and then GOING ON to tell what FOLLOWS ON from THOSE [i.e. which would be MANY MORE "birth PANGS" if THOSE were just "THE BEGINNING OF" them]);
--either you see NO relation to Jesus' phrase "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" to Paul's use of the term "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" regarding the manner in which "the DOTL" will ARRIVE; or else you do see the relation between their both using these terms, but believe they were both speaking of the "near-future" events of 70ad (so that, "the DOTL" time-period ARRIVED back in the events surrounding 70ad, and thus also "the man of sin" / "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" 2Th2:9a [at that time, meaning, in the 70ad events])?
--you believe that the "man of sin" is in no way related to the passage about "the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [future tense]" in Rev17:8b (at the time Rev was written)?... or that you do see some relation / connection?
--you see no connection whatsoever (in a literal sense) between the Daniel 7:20-25[27],11 passage and that of Rev13:5-7[1], but perhaps only as a type (for the future, from past history)? IOW, the phrase "Daniel the prophet" refers only to the fact that he was able to record/write down what God wanted to be written, but that nothing he wrote actually referred to anything "far-future" to him (basically only the events surrounding A4E / approx 167bc and other "past-history" events, from the perspective of the time of Jesus and His disciples in the first century)... and that "seal up... even to the the time of the end" (re: the writings of that "book") just meant, "so that others can later read about these events as you have recorded them"? "seal up... even to..." and then "knowledge shall be increased" (v.4) seems to imply that "knowledge" about what is written within this "book" will come to be "understood" at some point (v.10 "the WISE WILL understand")... what [point in time] are you thinking this referred to?
--well... I had more thoughts, but I've run outta gas (for typing) atm
, and will have to take this up at another time... just trying to understand your take on some of these issues, a little betterThanks for the discussion. = )
^ Oh... and one more thing...
the 10th item ^ (of my listing, above) has come to me (finally, lol)...
...the issue regarding the various "TILL / UNTIL" passages:
[how do you see these, generally speaking?]
--the "UNTIL / TILL" issues, pertaining to "ISRAEL" (i.e. Israel's "future"):
1) Acts3:21 (Peter, speaking to "ye men of Israel" [as yet "unsaved" ones] about the One "[re: Moses's saying, shall] "God raise up UNTO YOU of your brethren, like unto me [/Moses]" ["raise" / to a position of prominence in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death]) -
"whom heaven must receive UNTIL the timeS of restoration OF ALL THINGS GOD OF WHICH GOD SPAKE BY the mouths of all the holy prophets from the age"
(referring to OT prophets and their OT prophecies, the aspects that have not yet been fulfilled--For example, things concerning the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [Jesus Himself referred to this, abundantly, almost exclusively, in His earthly ministry during His first advent (again, parallel to Joseph's FIRST dream--whereas Joseph's SECOND dream parallels what WILL take place surrounding Christ's SECOND advent)])
2) Olivet Discourse SEQUENCE issues... noting esp. (in Lk21) the placement of v.32's
"TILL ALL be fulfilled" coming just a few verses after v.24's TWO ['of-lengthy-duration'] ITEMS which necessarily MUST be included in v.32's "ALL"
3) Hosea 5:14b,15-6:3 (re: Israel), where it says, "after two days" and "IN the THIRD DAY"; where v.15 had just said (re: Israel), "I will go and return unto My place UNTIL" and "in their affliction, they will seek Me earnestly/early"
4) Rom11:15,25-29 "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL" (see also Rom9:26 / Hos1:9,10-11... "said UNTO THEM" [/Israel])
5) Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2 which is about Jesus' birth) -
"Therefore will he give them up UNTIL the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: THEN shall the remnant of his brethren return unto the children of Israel"
(which verse I see corresponding to "the woman" in Rev12... which, in v.13 says, "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena / arren]"--and relating, in some measure, with the ideas expressed in Isa26:12,13,14-18[19-21] and context re: birth pangs [and how this relates to "the nations [plural (esp. ones which had *"dominated over Israel"]" and "the nation [singular; i.e. Israel]"])
*whereas "prophecies" re: Israel's "future" speak in more glowing/glorious terms, about them/Israel
the 10th item ^ (of my listing, above) has come to me (finally, lol)...
...the issue regarding the various "TILL / UNTIL" passages:
[how do you see these, generally speaking?]
--the "UNTIL / TILL" issues, pertaining to "ISRAEL" (i.e. Israel's "future"):
1) Acts3:21 (Peter, speaking to "ye men of Israel" [as yet "unsaved" ones] about the One "[re: Moses's saying, shall] "God raise up UNTO YOU of your brethren, like unto me [/Moses]" ["raise" / to a position of prominence in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death]) -
"whom heaven must receive UNTIL the timeS of restoration OF ALL THINGS GOD OF WHICH GOD SPAKE BY the mouths of all the holy prophets from the age"
(referring to OT prophets and their OT prophecies, the aspects that have not yet been fulfilled--For example, things concerning the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [Jesus Himself referred to this, abundantly, almost exclusively, in His earthly ministry during His first advent (again, parallel to Joseph's FIRST dream--whereas Joseph's SECOND dream parallels what WILL take place surrounding Christ's SECOND advent)])
2) Olivet Discourse SEQUENCE issues... noting esp. (in Lk21) the placement of v.32's
"TILL ALL be fulfilled" coming just a few verses after v.24's TWO ['of-lengthy-duration'] ITEMS which necessarily MUST be included in v.32's "ALL"
3) Hosea 5:14b,15-6:3 (re: Israel), where it says, "after two days" and "IN the THIRD DAY"; where v.15 had just said (re: Israel), "I will go and return unto My place UNTIL" and "in their affliction, they will seek Me earnestly/early"
4) Rom11:15,25-29 "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL" (see also Rom9:26 / Hos1:9,10-11... "said UNTO THEM" [/Israel])
5) Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2 which is about Jesus' birth) -
"Therefore will he give them up UNTIL the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: THEN shall the remnant of his brethren return unto the children of Israel"
(which verse I see corresponding to "the woman" in Rev12... which, in v.13 says, "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena / arren]"--and relating, in some measure, with the ideas expressed in Isa26:12,13,14-18[19-21] and context re: birth pangs [and how this relates to "the nations [plural (esp. ones which had *"dominated over Israel"]" and "the nation [singular; i.e. Israel]"])
*whereas "prophecies" re: Israel's "future" speak in more glowing/glorious terms, about them/Israel
2/3 in the land dying is glowing and glorious "future"?
Zechariah 13:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
Zechariah 13:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
