50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

Christ returns at an unappointed hour - indeed when he is not expected.
So having him return at the end (or middle) of a 7 year Tribulation is a total
red flag. Totally false teaching i am afraid.

the only way you can marry the 7 year tribulation with an unexpected coming is to
graft the Coming on at the start.

But you've somewhat deflated that idea by incorporating your great tribulation into the Time Of The Gentiles. as the last 7 years, so this is fails, because once you know the time of the Gentiles, you know the Time of Christ's return (TOG - 7 years).

But as the whole Great Trib concept is a total misconception, none of the above arguments need take place.
(Without the 'trib' there is no prefix. )

As has been demonstrated - the Great Tribulation is the time of Israel's destruction and diaspora, which began in AD67.

Anything can be demonstrated. Context and impossibilities are the challenge.

Flying scorpions
The ac
The mark
Buying/selling
Earth destroyed
Hailstones of fire

...and more are grand canyon leaps that destroy historicist.

Again rev 14......two groups gathered to heaven DURING THE TRIB.

None of it is history or plausable no matter how creative the answers get

 

[Runningman]

Hi Runningman

Maybe it is really easy to understand. but I really doubt it.
I am sure in a random sample of Christians, there will be loads of different views, and multiple discrepancies within
individual camps of thought.

Just reading through Thessalonians, it is not at all clear to me whether Paul is referring to one or
separate comings of the Lord.
I think there are separate events he is referring to.
For instance his description of a false state of 'peace and safety' before the Lord's return
does not harmonize with Luke 21

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

So it is entirely possible that he is talking about 2 different comings throughout Thessalonians.
The final coming of the Lord with his saints versus the coming of the Lord in judgment against Jerusalem

E.G.

1 Thessalonians
5 But (in contrast to the Final coming) of the times and the seasons (regarding appointed times), brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord (in the sense of judgment) so cometh as a thief in the night.(unexpectedly)3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; (Jerusalem is safe) then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

This passage would have to be read in a counter-intuitive way, in the sense that Paul applies the principle of the thief in the night, unexpected judgment, to Jerusalem, and by extension, not to the Church, as they have been filled in on this coming judgment.

Obviously Paul cannot blurt it out, as that would give it away to the Jerusalem contingent.
So he is saying:
"I don't need to write to you about judgment coming on Jerusalem, because you know when it is coming"
Hence
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Thess. 2:1 Paul says the Lord comes. I cannot assume that means three or four times, but I can surely know that the Lord will come at least once more unless stated otherwise.

I believe the Bible should be read in a way that is most consistent. For example, never is it explicitly stated that Jesus returns a third time, but there is solid foundation to conclude there is at least one more return of Christ, bringing the total number of advents to two.

I think to assume there is a third appearance, where none is specifically stated, is to add to the scope of what is revealed by the scripture.

Therefore, all mentions of the return of Christ, whether it be Matthew 24:29-32, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 2 Thess. 1:7-8, and many more are the second advent.

What you need to remove all doubt, in my opinion, is a verse that gets very specific about the number of times Jesus returns.

There is at least one verse in all of scripture that attaches a number to the times that Christ appears and it is in Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:28
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[cv5]

Anything can be demonstrated. Context and impossibilities are the challenge.

Flying scorpions
The ac
The mark
Buying/selling
Earth destroyed
Hailstones of fire

...and more are grand canyon leaps that destroy historicist.

Again rev 14......two groups gathered to heaven DURING THE TRIB.

None of it is history or plausable no matter how creative the answers get

I agree that the harvest of the Son of Man in Rev 14 must be tribulation saints....
Verses 12 through 16 make it clear.

vv. 12 "saints", their faith and deeds
vv. 13 "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord"
vv. 15 is a grain harvest (overripe because of the terrible stresses of the tribulation)

This group is not harpazo-ed......as verse 13 makes clear. They die the death of martyrs.

However the grape harvest of verses 17-20 are unquestionably the damned. This harvest is accomplished by "another angel".

 

[Runningman]

Why are people unable to distinguish what is for salvation ("the last trump") and what is for damnation (the 7th trumpet)? The trouble is that when sound doctrine is presented, it is rejected out of hand by those who have no clue. It is about time that some said "I am clueless. I need to be a learner".

People have different schools of thought in Christianity. It's great that you're confident, but I assure you that others are confident, too. It's to each person's advantage to be fully convinced in their own mind about what they believe while also striving for the truth of the scriptures.

Each of us, no matter how sure of our Biblical interpretation, should have the humility admit we can be wrong about a doctrine so firmly held. It is only right to pursue truth and unity of faith regardless of disagreements.

Romans 14:1-12 is a beautiful passage about this. Verse 5 says, "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

That being said, most people, certainly not all apparently, can be persuaded by compelling Biblical arguments. Every single last word and punctuation mark matters. If you have a verse that says "Jesus returns before the tribulation" then by all means share it. If you can prove the "last trump" is not the "7th trump" then feel free to do so.

 

[VCO]

What I posted proves the 7th trump is when the second coming happens. Even most pre-tribbers know that.

You cannot PROVE a myth that you have conjured up.

 

[OldSage]

2 Thess. 2:1 Paul says the Lord comes. I cannot assume that means three or four times, but I can surely know that the Lord will come at least once more unless stated otherwise.

I believe the Bible should be read in a way that is most consistent. For example, never is it explicitly stated that Jesus returns a third time, but there is solid foundation to conclude there is at least one more return of Christ, bringing the total number of advents to two.

I think to assume there is a third appearance, where none is specifically stated, is to add to the scope of what is revealed by the scripture.

Therefore, all mentions of the return of Christ, whether it be Matthew 24:29-32, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 2 Thess. 1:7-8, and many more are the second advent.

What you need to remove all doubt, in my opinion, is a verse that gets very specific about the number of times Jesus returns.

There is at least one verse in all of scripture that attaches a number to the times that Christ appears and it is in Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:28
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It's not something I've studied - but taking Hebrews.
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

Jesus fulfilled the role of sacrificial lamb and he then immediately entered heaven.
He then returned to his disciples and told them that he would go away but quickly reappear.
Jhn 16:16 - A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

So already he has reappeared to the Disciples as the Holy Spirit.

Writing circa AD60 Paul tells the Hebrews that Jesus will appear a second time without sin to those looking for him, unto salvation. Well the first time was as the Holy Spirit.

But Jesus can also make other appearances not necessarily unto salvation - e.g. in wrath.
And not necessarily to 'those looking for him' (the church collective) e.g. to John as an individual.

 

[Runningman]

It's not something I've studied - but taking Hebrews.
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

Jesus fulfilled the role of sacrificial lamb and he then immediately entered heaven.
He then returned to his disciples and told them that he would go away but quickly reappear.
Jhn 16:16 - A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

So already he has reappeared to the Disciples as the Holy Spirit.

Writing circa AD60 Paul tells the Hebrews that Jesus will appear a second time without sin to those looking for him, unto salvation. Well the first time was as the Holy Spirit.

But Jesus can also make other appearances not necessarily unto salvation - e.g. in wrath.
And not necessarily to 'those looking for him' (the church collective) e.g. to John as an individual.

Exactly. I think when Jesus appears it will be for salvation for those looking for Himz such as you and me, but for swirft destruction for those who did not obey the gospel.

 

[cv5]

What I posted proves the 7th trump is when the second coming happens. Even most pre-tribbers know that.

Your 7th trumpet theory has been destroyed. It's up to you to face the facts.

 

[VCO]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

How can an Apostasy happen before the "revealing" of the man of sin? Shouldn't he appear first, then cause the Apostasy to happen?

You had better learn how to connect scripture to scripture, instead of assuming you already know.

2 Thes. was written 51-52 A.D.
2 John was written 85-95 A.D.

So look what it says in 2 John:

2 John 1:7 (HCSB)
7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.


It looks like, you may have already been deceived to believe false doctrine by some deceiver.

Now do I believe there is a future ANTICHRIST? YES, and it could be, he may have already been revealed and is a member of European Union, and probably cause a great split in the E.U. as he takes over as a single dictator. No matter how he does it, HE WILL BE RULER of the 10 nation Confederacy, thus the revival of the ROMAN EMPIRE.

 

[Absolutely]

I agree that the harvest of the Son of Man in Rev 14 must be tribulation saints....
Verses 12 through 16 make it clear.

vv. 12 "saints", their faith and deeds
vv. 13 "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord"
vv. 15 is a grain harvest (overripe because of the terrible stresses of the tribulation)

This group is not harpazo-ed......as verse 13 makes clear. They die the death of martyrs.

However the grape harvest of verses 17-20 are unquestionably the damned. This harvest is accomplished by "another angel".

And remember, the firstfruit jews are harvested first as firstfruits,( the 144k in heaven rev14) then main harvest by Jesus sitting on a cloud.
I believe that main harvest is Jews. They are the last or next to last seated at the marriage supper.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus fulfilled the role of sacrificial lamb and he then immediately entered heaven.

While I agree ^ with you on that point ^ ...

He then returned to his disciples and told them that he would go away but quickly reappear.
Jhn 16:16 - A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

... He actually stated these words ^ before He was even arrested (see chpt 18 after this chpt 16 point in time)

So already he has reappeared to the Disciples as the Holy Spirit.

Writing circa AD60 Paul tells the Hebrews that Jesus will appear a second time without sin to those looking for him, unto salvation. Well the first time was as the Holy Spirit.

So the first time was "as Himself" (resurrected--on His Resurrection Day / on Firstfruit [Lev23:10-12]),
...He saw them (they saw Him) that very day, late in the evening (after He had done the "I ascend" thing [you reference at top ^], and after He had already been seen of MM ['first'] and then the 2 Emmaus road walkers... so in Luke 24:36-41 (where verse 41 speaks of that very "joy" He'd mentioned prior to the Cross [back in Jn16, said before His death (ABOUT His Resurrection Day), not said after His resurrection])

 

[cv5]

And remember, the firstfruit jews are harvested first as firstfruits,( the 144k in heaven rev14) then main harvest by Jesus sitting on a cloud.
I believe that main harvest is Jews. They are the last or next to last seated at the marriage supper.

That is definitely a very interesting topic. I am not quite settled on the matter. God willing and a light bulb is going to go on and I will understand it fully.......

 

[OldSage]

While I agree ^ with you on that point ^ ...



... He actually stated these words ^ before He was even arrested (see chpt 18 after this chpt 16 point in time)



So the first time was "as Himself" (resurrected--on His Resurrection Day / on Firstfruit [Lev23:10-12]),
...He saw them (they saw Him) that very day, late in the evening (after He had done the "I ascend" thing [you reference at top ^], and after He had already been seen of MM ['first'] and then the 2 Emmaus road walkers... so in Luke 24:36-41 (where verse 41 speaks of that very "joy" He'd mentioned prior to the Cross [back in Jn16, said before His death (ABOUT His Resurrection Day), not said after His resurrection])

What is your point about John 18?

 

[cv5]

The old english the KJV uses is always causing issues:

"in the days" simply means the "time of"...the moment when the 7th trump starts to sound then the mystery of God will be finished.

This is simply what it is saying:

Revelation 10:7


(CEV) God told his secret plans to his servants the prophets, and it will all happen by the time the seventh angel sounds his trumpet."

(GNB) But when the seventh angel blows his trumpet, then God will accomplish his secret plan, as he announced to his servants, the prophets."

(ISV) When the time approaches for the seventh angel to blow his trumpet, God's secret plan will be fulfilled, as he had announced to his servants, the prophets."

The 7th trump isn't going to sound for days and days like the KJV makes it seem.

Luk_17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Here again is the same issue making it seem that the second coming is several days when it's a moment of a day.

There is no instantaneous action of the first six trumpets either. It is a process, a long drawn out affair. All of it wrath and judgment.

 

[OldSage]

While I agree ^ with you on that point ^ ...



... He actually stated these words ^ before He was even arrested (see chpt 18 after this chpt 16 point in time)



So the first time was "as Himself" (resurrected--on His Resurrection Day / on Firstfruit [Lev23:10-12]),
...He saw them (they saw Him) that very day, late in the evening (after He had done the "I ascend" thing [you reference at top ^], and after He had already been seen of MM ['first'] and then the 2 Emmaus road walkers... so in Luke 24:36-41 (where verse 41 speaks of that very "joy" He'd mentioned prior to the Cross [back in Jn16, said before His death (ABOUT His Resurrection Day), not said after His resurrection])

You're not making any sense

You need to understand John 14 before attacking 16 and 18

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

 

[cv5]

It may be that Hymenaeus and Philetus are at least some of the culprits of 2Thes 2:2.....

2 Tim 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

After some checking I would think that this is unlikely. Evidently 2Thes and 2Timothy are 15 years distant in time. Not impossible but unlikely........could be the same guys or new batch of heretics.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You're not making any sense
You need to understand John 14 before attacking 16 and 18
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

It gets somewhat tedious for me to type / explain... but let me start with this much...

In John 14:28, where He says, "You heard me say, 'I am going away [G5217] and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going [G4198 - 'journeying' (same word in Acts 1:10)] to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"... He is here talking about what He'd said in vv.1-4 about the "longer" spans of time.

Same for in John 16:7[10] (same 'longer spans'), where He says, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away [/am going away - G565]: for if I go not away [/unless I go away - G565], the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart [/I go / I journey - G4198, I will send him unto you... ; [10]... because I go away [G5217] to the Father and you see me no more."






In some versions, in Jn16:16, the latter phrase is not in the verse, so like this:
Berean Literal Bible
"A little while and you behold Me no longer; and again a little while and you will see Me." [the part about "go away [G5217]" not being in some versions - https://biblehub.com/parallel/john/16-16.htm (LISTING of versions) ; https://biblehub.com/text/john/16-16.htm (verse 16)] ...
...which verse Jesus explains further in vv.19-22 (which I believe He is referring to the "shorter spans of time," referring to "from His death, until His Resurrection Day"... when their "sorrow" would be turned to "JOY" vv.19,20... and Lk24:41 "for joy")






[side note: Jesus seemingly uses three different words for "go" in these passages - G565; G5217; G4198...]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ...

So where you'd said:

He then returned to his disciples and told them that he would go away but quickly reappear.
Jhn 16:16 - A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

...I'm pointing out that He'd said this before His death (not after His FF ascension on Resurrection Day); and referring to "from the time of His death, until they saw Him on His Resurrection Day" (late that same evening)

 

[OldSage]

It gets somewhat tedious for me to type / explain... but let me start with this much...

In John 14:28, where He says, "You heard me say, 'I am going away [G5217] and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going [G4198 - 'journeying' (same word in Acts 1:10)] to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"... He is here talking about what He'd said in vv.1-4 about the "longer" spans of time.

Same for in John 16:7[10] (same 'longer spans'), where He says, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away [/am going away - G565]: for if I go not away [/unless I go away - G565], the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart [/I go / I journey - G4198, I will send him unto you... ; [10]... because I go away [G5217] to the Father and you see me no more."

In some versions, in Jn16:16, the latter phrase is not in the verse, so like this:
Berean Literal Bible
"A little while and you behold Me no longer; and again a little while and you will see Me." [the part about "go away [G5217]" not being in some versions - https://biblehub.com/parallel/john/16-16.htm (LISTING of versions) ; https://biblehub.com/text/john/16-16.htm (verse 16)] ...
...which verse Jesus explains further in vv.19-22 (which I believe He is referring to the "shorter spans of time," referring to "from His death, until His Resurrection Day"... when their "sorrow" would be turned to "JOY" vv.19,20... and Lk24:41 "for joy")
[side note: Jesus seemingly uses three different words for "go" in these passages - G565; G5217; G4198...]

Trust me TDW - it can hardly be more tedious than dealing with your dreadful inability to present your arguments legibly, your complete inability to answer a question directly, and the arrogance that makes you think we should trawl back through several layers of your posts to get an explanation.

And besides all that, you talk rubbish my dear.

 

[OldSage]

It gets somewhat tedious for me to type / explain... but let me start with this much...

In John 14:28, where He says, "You heard me say, 'I am going away [G5217] and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going [G4198 - 'journeying' (same word in Acts 1:10)] to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"... He is here talking about what He'd said in vv.1-4 about the "longer" spans of time.

Same for in John 16:7[10] (same 'longer spans'), where He says, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away [/am going away - G565]: for if I go not away [/unless I go away - G565], the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart [/I go / I journey - G4198, I will send him unto you... ; [10]... because I go away [G5217] to the Father and you see me no more."






In some versions, in Jn16:16, the latter phrase is not in the verse, so like this:
Berean Literal Bible
"A little while and you behold Me no longer; and again a little while and you will see Me." [the part about "go away [G5217]" not being in some versions - https://biblehub.com/parallel/john/16-16.htm (LISTING of versions) ; https://biblehub.com/text/john/16-16.htm (verse 16)] ...
...which verse Jesus explains further in vv.19-22 (which I believe He is referring to the "shorter spans of time," referring to "from His death, until His Resurrection Day"... when their "sorrow" would be turned to "JOY" vv.19,20... and Lk24:41 "for joy")






[side note: Jesus seemingly uses three different words for "go" in these passages - G565; G5217; G4198...]

You just make absolutely no sense. What are you trying to say?

Oh btw -- you said you knew when Jesus will return -

TIME AND DATE PLZ...............