50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Mar 4, 2020
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Again, how do they fall away before the man of sin even presents himself as a false god? My point is perhaps the verse has been misread for all this time and the "revealing" is when he is revealed to be a false god like when a masked bank robber is caught and then the mask is taken off and his true identity is "revealed".
That seems plausible since the context shows that the man of sin will be in the temple proclaiming himself to be God, albeit falsely of course. People are probably going to think Jesus has returned because he'll be doing miracles as well.

Like the whole thing would be a forgery of the return of Christ and all of those "unbelievers", who are actually real Christians, would be branded as the ultimate heretics and martyred for refusing to take his mark on their right hand or forehead.

That sounds like that's probably what the strong delusion is. The more I think of what you're trying to say the more brilliant I think it is.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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I should ask for the qift of translation mebbe... sheesh
It's not good is it?
I was a bit too generous in the beginning as I thought TDW was a benign old lady
with communication disorders.
LOL
Anyhow, she told us that she knows the exact time of Jesus's final coming -

see post 4vc5x in which #I# refer to posts 54KHS and 6987H ++_)

so I am still waiting for that.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Precious friend, how can a weak and Severely DIVIDED {GRACE} church
"overcome the son of Perdition"? {see next answer about this Confusion}

Well said, and if you have Confusion about The MEAT of end-times eschatology,
think about the MANY who are still Confused about The MILK Of God's Word!:

Severe DIVISION Of GRACE Through faith salvation vs faith+works salvation,
TWO baptisms {water/WITH The Holy Ghost} vs Paul's ONE BAPTISM BY The
ONE Spirit, walking BY faith VS
"sight" seekers of signs, healings, miracles,
tongues, snake handling, etc...

Ok, I can do that: I believe the "date and time" Of The Opening Of This Current
"Age Of PURE GRACE," Was "The TRUMP {Voice} Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST, To

Saul/Paul in Acts 9: "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou ME!"

However, The CLOSING "Date" would be UNknown, When God's TRUMP Calls:
"My church, Come UP Hither," in Great GRACE Departure To Heaven!
Amen?

Thus, ONLY WHEN "PURE GRACE" Is Ended, can God's JUDGMENT Begin!

More MEAT here, IF you wish:
Great GRACE {MYSTERY} Departure @ the 2nd coming {prophecy}?

Be Blessed!
I read that Grace but it is very complex and I disagree with quite a few things...........
 
Oct 23, 2020
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2 Thess. 2:1 Paul says the Lord comes. I cannot assume that means three or four times, but I can surely know that the Lord will come at least once more unless stated otherwise.

I believe the Bible should be read in a way that is most consistent. For example, never is it explicitly stated that Jesus returns a third time, but there is solid foundation to conclude there is at least one more return of Christ, bringing the total number of advents to two.

I think to assume there is a third appearance, where none is specifically stated, is to add to the scope of what is revealed by the scripture.

Therefore, all mentions of the return of Christ, whether it be Matthew 24:29-32, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 2 Thess. 1:7-8, and many more are the second advent.

What you need to remove all doubt, in my opinion, is a verse that gets very specific about the number of times Jesus returns.

There is at least one verse in all of scripture that attaches a number to the times that Christ appears and it is in Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:28
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
In Hebrews there Paul uses the verb 'optanomai' (to allow oneself to be seen, to appear).
The first appearance was after his resurrection (Acts 1:3)

I suppose the question in my mind is whether an appearance and a coming are the same or different things.

E.G. Matthew 16
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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That seems plausible since the context shows that the man of sin will be in the temple proclaiming himself to be God, albeit falsely of course. People are probably going to think Jesus has returned because he'll be doing miracles as well.

Like the whole thing would be a forgery of the return of Christ and all of those "unbelievers", who are actually real Christians, would be branded as the ultimate heretics and martyred for refusing to take his mark on their right hand or forehead.

That sounds like that's probably what the strong delusion is. The more I think of what you're trying to say the more brilliant I think it is.

Appreciated. I have been teaching this for decades but only a few have grasped it.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,986
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That seems plausible since the context shows that the man of sin will be in the temple proclaiming himself to be God, albeit falsely of course. People are probably going to think Jesus has returned because he'll be doing miracles as well.

Like the whole thing would be a forgery of the return of Christ and all of those "unbelievers", who are actually real Christians, would be branded as the ultimate heretics and martyred for refusing to take his mark on their right hand or forehead.

That sounds like that's probably what the strong delusion is. The more I think of what you're trying to say the more brilliant I think it is.
Here is more that I have prepared on this:

I see the man of sin being revealed as not a first appearance but Christ unmasking and revealing that he was a false God, a false Christ. So the falling away is when he first appears and lies about who he is and many fall away to accept him, then the second part of what happens when Christ returns and "reveals" the man of sin as being the man of sin and not a Messiah.

So, the mention of the falling away is the start of the Gt, and then speaking of the revealing of the man of sin is actually the end of the Gt....in one sentence Paul covers the who thing, explaining what must happen before the return of Christ happens. In this I see Paul listing the two events as very chronologically ordered.


**************


Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The "revealing" is tied directly to the return of Christ.

G601
apokalupto¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

The man of sin is the Antichrist and will claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.



Matthew Henry

II. A revelation of that man of sin, that is (2Th_2:3), antichrist would take his rise from this general apostasy. The apostle afterwards speaks of the revelation of that wicked one (2Th_2:8), intimating the discovery which should be made of his wickedness, in order to his ruin
***************************




The antichrist is not "revealed" as in his first appearance until the beginning of the tribulation but was that what Paul was speaking of?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Paul says the Apostasy comes FIRST and after that is the man of sin is "revealed".

646

646 apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}

feminine of the same as 647; TDNT - 1:513,88; n f

AV - to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy





But the Apostasy cannot take place unless people stop worshipping Christ and begin to worship the false christ so this "revealing" after the Apostasy isnt what we might think it is. We normally think of a "revealing" as the initial appearance of the AC but it can also mean a complete and full reveal of satan ie: the man of sin, not a revealing of the false christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man
of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

See, it is not the antichrist that is revealed, but WHO the AC truly is that is revealed! When does that happen? When the true Christ returns. Just go back to the subject.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The subject is Christ's return, NOT the first initial appearance of the antichrist. What is revealed at Christ's return is WHO the antichrist actually was, satan himself, the man of sin as Paul clearly says. And this is why Paul spoke of the Apostasy happening first, and then at Christ's return (which was the subject) the AC will be revealed to the world as having been satan, the man of sin.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man
of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

601

601 apokalupto {ap-ok-al-oop'-to}

from 575 and 2572; TDNT - 3:563,405; v

AV - reveal 26; 26

1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown

For Synonyms see entry 5812

disclose v 1: make known to the public information that was previously known only to a few
people or that was meant to be kept a secret

The truth is known only to a small group of the elect now, but when satan is truly revealed, all will know who he is.

To lay bare simply means to make naked, to remove anything preventing one from seeing what is truely there.

Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

This is the same word. To "reveal" the man of sin is to "make known" who he is and that happens at the 7th trump.


Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Even when this happens, satan is as much hidden to the world as he ever has been. This is not the same as to be revealed, or unveiled, or to make known the truth or expose or make bare. That depth of revealing doesn't happen until Christ's return.


It is not a mere presenting or announcing or "showing" of satan in that false christ role to the world, but to fully reveal the truth of that false role, to show all that he isnt Christ.

When satan is revealed the entire world shall see that he was the false christ because that deception shall be removed making the truth unveiled before their eyes.



Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.



This is the same word. To "reveal" the man of sin is to "make known" who he is and that happens at the 7th trump.




2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that
is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in
the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I
told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be
revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy
with the brightness of his coming:

"And then" also means "and at that time". What time is the subject? The start of the tribulation and the appearance of the antichrist? No! The subject, the time being spoken of is Christ's return. The revealing is done "at that time" and that is why that revealing is the FULL revealing of who the AC was, the man of sin.

Christ will "destroy" the role of the antichrist with the "spirit of his mouth" and with the "brightness of his coming".
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Here is more that I have prepared on this:

I see the man of sin being revealed as not a first appearance but Christ unmasking and revealing that he was a false God, a false Christ. So the falling away is when he first appears and lies about who he is and many fall away to accept him, then the second part of what happens when Christ returns and "reveals" the man of sin as being the man of sin and not a Messiah.

So, the mention of the falling away is the start of the Gt, and then speaking of the revealing of the man of sin is actually the end of the Gt....in one sentence Paul covers the who thing, explaining what must happen before the return of Christ happens. In this I see Paul listing the two events as very chronologically ordered.


**************


Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The "revealing" is tied directly to the return of Christ.

G601
apokalupto¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

The man of sin is the Antichrist and will claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.



Matthew Henry



***************************




The antichrist is not "revealed" as in his first appearance until the beginning of the tribulation but was that what Paul was speaking of?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Paul says the Apostasy comes FIRST and after that is the man of sin is "revealed".

646

646 apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}

feminine of the same as 647; TDNT - 1:513,88; n f

AV - to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy





But the Apostasy cannot take place unless people stop worshipping Christ and begin to worship the false christ so this "revealing" after the Apostasy isnt what we might think it is. We normally think of a "revealing" as the initial appearance of the AC but it can also mean a complete and full reveal of satan ie: the man of sin, not a revealing of the false christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man
of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

See, it is not the antichrist that is revealed, but WHO the AC truly is that is revealed! When does that happen? When the true Christ returns. Just go back to the subject.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The subject is Christ's return, NOT the first initial appearance of the antichrist. What is revealed at Christ's return is WHO the antichrist actually was, satan himself, the man of sin as Paul clearly says. And this is why Paul spoke of the Apostasy happening first, and then at Christ's return (which was the subject) the AC will be revealed to the world as having been satan, the man of sin.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man
of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

601

601 apokalupto {ap-ok-al-oop'-to}

from 575 and 2572; TDNT - 3:563,405; v

AV - reveal 26; 26

1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown

For Synonyms see entry 5812

disclose v 1: make known to the public information that was previously known only to a few
people or that was meant to be kept a secret

The truth is known only to a small group of the elect now, but when satan is truly revealed, all will know who he is.

To lay bare simply means to make naked, to remove anything preventing one from seeing what is truely there.

Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

This is the same word. To "reveal" the man of sin is to "make known" who he is and that happens at the 7th trump.


Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Even when this happens, satan is as much hidden to the world as he ever has been. This is not the same as to be revealed, or unveiled, or to make known the truth or expose or make bare. That depth of revealing doesn't happen until Christ's return.


It is not a mere presenting or announcing or "showing" of satan in that false christ role to the world, but to fully reveal the truth of that false role, to show all that he isnt Christ.

When satan is revealed the entire world shall see that he was the false christ because that deception shall be removed making the truth unveiled before their eyes.



Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.



This is the same word. To "reveal" the man of sin is to "make known" who he is and that happens at the 7th trump.




2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that
is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in
the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I
told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be
revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy
with the brightness of his coming:

"And then" also means "and at that time". What time is the subject? The start of the tribulation and the appearance of the antichrist? No! The subject, the time being spoken of is Christ's return. The revealing is done "at that time" and that is why that revealing is the FULL revealing of who the AC was, the man of sin.

Christ will "destroy" the role of the antichrist with the "spirit of his mouth" and with the "brightness of his coming".
You say a 'small group of the elect' understand who the AC is.
Why not simply 'the Elect?'
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,880
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Oh btw -- you said you knew when Jesus will return -

TIME AND DATE PLZ...............
TDW - stop wriggling.

You said you knew the time of Christ's return.
Answer or be proven once and for all a total fraud
And seeing you dodge the simple question about Christ's return, I see now that
your behaviour is not accidental.
Anyhow, she told us that she knows the exact time of Jesus's final coming -

see post 4vc5x in which #I# refer to posts 54KHS and 6987H ++_)

so I am still waiting for that.
Hmm... "Answer or be proven once and for all a total fraud"...


One either believes Scripture is saying Jesus STILL does not know, or one can view the "PERFECT indicative" of the word "knows" (Matt24:36, et al) combined with what I'd pointed out about Rev1:1 and come to a very different conclusion, meaning, that He NOW "knows"... and further, chose at that time (at the writing of Rev in 95ad) to disclose "further information" on that very Subject, which is what I believe and had explained in my post about the numerous time-stamps and timing-indicators throughout that Book (which can then be plotted out on a "calendar" as I mentioned).

Now, either you agree with me that Scripture is NOT saying "no one CAN EVER know," nor "no one WILL EVER KNOW," nor "it is FORBIDDEN to know," nor "it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever know," or you disagree with me.

Which is it?? Do you agree or do you disagree?

I don't mind if you want to somehow conclude I am a "fraud".

I'm still interested in knowing whether or not you agree with that point ^ , thus far. It's perfectly fine with me if you do not agree.






As to your request, I'll just put here what I'd written in the last paragraph (not in the tag-line) of the following post:

Post #7 (Jan 2020)... last two full sentences of the last paragraph - https://christianchat.com/threads/c...and-time-of-christ-return.189557/post-4125340





Think of me what you will. It matters not to me.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,880
2,112
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^ For the readers' consideration:

Q: "It is NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER possible for ANYONE EVER to *know* the timing of Christ's "RETURN" to the earth in Rev 19, prior to that RETURN point in time"

- True or False?




[first step in questioning... :) ]
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,104
2,141
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It's not good is it?
I was a bit too generous in the beginning as I thought TDW was a benign old lady
with communication disorders.
LOL
Anyhow, she told us that she knows the exact time of Jesus's final coming -

see post 4vc5x in which #I# refer to posts 54KHS and 6987H ++_)

so I am still waiting for that.
Ok, I went back to the referred posts and also back through the referred posts in the referred post and, I think, paraphrasing her answer, it's "after the rapture, in the night."
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,986
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You say a 'small group of the elect' understand who the AC is.
Why not simply 'the Elect?'
That's basically the same thing. All I meant is that the elect are a small group not that only part of the elect understand it.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,880
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and, I think, paraphrasing her answer, it's "after the rapture, in the night."
That's when "the DOTL" time period *arrives* to unfold upon the earth (aka the commencing of the 7 Trib yrs), not His "RETURN" to the earth that OldSage and I are discussing presently. Just so you know. = )
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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That's when "the DOTL" time period *arrives* to unfold upon the earth (aka the commencing of the 7 Trib yrs), not His "RETURN" to the earth that OldSage and I are discussing presently. Just so you know. = )
I missed my window to edit again as I was adding... "so, I assume, after the event of the rapture becomes a known, one can begin the count to the DOTL?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Again, how do they fall away before the man of sin even presents himself as a false god? My point is perhaps the verse has been misread for all this time and the "revealing" is when he is revealed to be a false god like when a masked bank robber is caught and then the mask is taken off and his true identity is "revealed".

You have the WRONG idea about what it means to Fall Away.


Psalm 101:3 (NASB)
3 I will set no worthless thing before my eyes; I hate the work of those who fall away; It shall not fasten its grip on me.

Matthew 26:31 (ESV)
31 Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’

Matthew 26:33 (ESV)
33 Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.

Hebrews 3:12 (ESV)
12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Luke 8:13 (KJV)
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.


It is not because of the Antichrist, they will FALL AWAY, it is because they are NOT GENUINELY BORN AGAIN, they settled for something less than genuine SALVATION.


Ephesians 4:14-15 (NASB)
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

2 Timothy 3:5-8 (HCSB)
5 holding to the form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid these people!
6 For among them are those who worm their way into households and capture idle women burdened down with sins, led along by a variety of passions,
7 always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men who are corrupt in mind, worthless in regard to the faith.

2 Timothy 4:14-15 (NKJV)
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works.
15 You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words.

1 Timothy 1:18-20 (HCSB)
18 Timothy, my son, I am giving you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies previously made about you, so that by them you may strongly engage in battle,
19 having faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and have suffered the shipwreck of their faith.
20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.


Something like certain people do on this site.

Now in these days, many have not understood what the True Gospel IS, or have settled for something less than what the True GOSPEL is. You see, I used to believe that my infant baptism and the fact I was sitting on a pew most Sundays, meant I was SAVED. I found out after three attempts at suicide the last week of 1977, two months before my 29th Birthday, that I never was SAVED. So I actually know what believing in a FALSE GOSPEL is all about. I attended church all of my life, and when I had a pistol against my temple, with the trigger half pulled, I KNEW FOR CERTAIN I WAS STANDING IN THE GATES OF HADES/HELL, ready to walk in, if I finished pulling that trigger.

A NON-BORN AGAIN, Sinful mankind, does not NEED HELP from the Antichrist, to FALL AWAY.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Here is more that I have prepared on this:

I see the man of sin being revealed as not a first appearance but Christ unmasking and revealing that he was a false God, a false Christ. So the falling away is when he first appears and lies about who he is and many fall away to accept him, then the second part of what happens when Christ returns and "reveals" the man of sin as being the man of sin and not a Messiah.

So, the mention of the falling away is the start of the Gt, and then speaking of the revealing of the man of sin is actually the end of the Gt....in one sentence Paul covers the who thing, explaining what must happen before the return of Christ happens. In this I see Paul listing the two events as very chronologically ordered.


**************


Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The "revealing" is tied directly to the return of Christ.

G601
apokalupto¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

The man of sin is the Antichrist and will claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.



Matthew Henry



***************************




The antichrist is not "revealed" as in his first appearance until the beginning of the tribulation but was that what Paul was speaking of?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Paul says the Apostasy comes FIRST and after that is the man of sin is "revealed".

646

646 apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}

feminine of the same as 647; TDNT - 1:513,88; n f

AV - to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy





But the Apostasy cannot take place unless people stop worshipping Christ and begin to worship the false christ so this "revealing" after the Apostasy isnt what we might think it is. We normally think of a "revealing" as the initial appearance of the AC but it can also mean a complete and full reveal of satan ie: the man of sin, not a revealing of the false christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man
of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

See, it is not the antichrist that is revealed, but WHO the AC truly is that is revealed! When does that happen? When the true Christ returns. Just go back to the subject.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The subject is Christ's return, NOT the first initial appearance of the antichrist. What is revealed at Christ's return is WHO the antichrist actually was, satan himself, the man of sin as Paul clearly says. And this is why Paul spoke of the Apostasy happening first, and then at Christ's return (which was the subject) the AC will be revealed to the world as having been satan, the man of sin.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man
of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

601

601 apokalupto {ap-ok-al-oop'-to}

from 575 and 2572; TDNT - 3:563,405; v

AV - reveal 26; 26

1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown

For Synonyms see entry 5812

disclose v 1: make known to the public information that was previously known only to a few
people or that was meant to be kept a secret

The truth is known only to a small group of the elect now, but when satan is truly revealed, all will know who he is.

To lay bare simply means to make naked, to remove anything preventing one from seeing what is truely there.

Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

This is the same word. To "reveal" the man of sin is to "make known" who he is and that happens at the 7th trump.


Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Even when this happens, satan is as much hidden to the world as he ever has been. This is not the same as to be revealed, or unveiled, or to make known the truth or expose or make bare. That depth of revealing doesn't happen until Christ's return.


It is not a mere presenting or announcing or "showing" of satan in that false christ role to the world, but to fully reveal the truth of that false role, to show all that he isnt Christ.

When satan is revealed the entire world shall see that he was the false christ because that deception shall be removed making the truth unveiled before their eyes.



Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.



This is the same word. To "reveal" the man of sin is to "make known" who he is and that happens at the 7th trump.




2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that
is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in
the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I
told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be
revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy
with the brightness of his coming:

"And then" also means "and at that time". What time is the subject? The start of the tribulation and the appearance of the antichrist? No! The subject, the time being spoken of is Christ's return. The revealing is done "at that time" and that is why that revealing is the FULL revealing of who the AC was, the man of sin.

Christ will "destroy" the role of the antichrist with the "spirit of his mouth" and with the "brightness of his coming".
Wow very informative and enlightening. I think I'm seeing this chapter in a whole new light and it actually makes sense. The way you put it really makes me realize they everything the devil is up to is a counterfeit. The devil actually wants to be God and in a lesser sense is identified as the god of this world. I think knowing and understanding this is important.

What is the image of the beast that speaks as mentioned in Revelation 13:15?

15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
Here is more that I have prepared on this:

I see the man of sin being revealed as not a first appearance but Christ unmasking and revealing that he was a false God, a false Christ. So the falling away is when he first appears and lies about who he is and many fall away to accept him, then the second part of what happens when Christ returns and "reveals" the man of sin as being the man of sin and not a Messiah.

So, the mention of the falling away is the start of the Gt, and then speaking of the revealing of the man of sin is actually the end of the Gt....in one sentence Paul covers the who thing, explaining what must happen before the return of Christ happens. In this I see Paul listing the two events as very chronologically ordered.


**************


Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The "revealing" is tied directly to the return of Christ.

G601
apokalupto¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

The man of sin is the Antichrist and will claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.



Matthew Henry



***************************




The antichrist is not "revealed" as in his first appearance until the beginning of the tribulation but was that what Paul was speaking of?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Paul says the Apostasy comes FIRST and after that is the man of sin is "revealed".

646

646 apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}

feminine of the same as 647; TDNT - 1:513,88; n f

AV - to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy





But the Apostasy cannot take place unless people stop worshipping Christ and begin to worship the false christ so this "revealing" after the Apostasy isnt what we might think it is. We normally think of a "revealing" as the initial appearance of the AC but it can also mean a complete and full reveal of satan ie: the man of sin, not a revealing of the false christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man
of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

See, it is not the antichrist that is revealed, but WHO the AC truly is that is revealed! When does that happen? When the true Christ returns. Just go back to the subject.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The subject is Christ's return, NOT the first initial appearance of the antichrist. What is revealed at Christ's return is WHO the antichrist actually was, satan himself, the man of sin as Paul clearly says. And this is why Paul spoke of the Apostasy happening first, and then at Christ's return (which was the subject) the AC will be revealed to the world as having been satan, the man of sin.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man
of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

601

601 apokalupto {ap-ok-al-oop'-to}

from 575 and 2572; TDNT - 3:563,405; v

AV - reveal 26; 26

1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown

For Synonyms see entry 5812

disclose v 1: make known to the public information that was previously known only to a few
people or that was meant to be kept a secret

The truth is known only to a small group of the elect now, but when satan is truly revealed, all will know who he is.

To lay bare simply means to make naked, to remove anything preventing one from seeing what is truely there.

Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

This is the same word. To "reveal" the man of sin is to "make known" who he is and that happens at the 7th trump.


Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Even when this happens, satan is as much hidden to the world as he ever has been. This is not the same as to be revealed, or unveiled, or to make known the truth or expose or make bare. That depth of revealing doesn't happen until Christ's return.


It is not a mere presenting or announcing or "showing" of satan in that false christ role to the world, but to fully reveal the truth of that false role, to show all that he isnt Christ.

When satan is revealed the entire world shall see that he was the false christ because that deception shall be removed making the truth unveiled before their eyes.



Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.



This is the same word. To "reveal" the man of sin is to "make known" who he is and that happens at the 7th trump.




2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that
is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in
the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I
told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be
revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy
with the brightness of his coming:

"And then" also means "and at that time". What time is the subject? The start of the tribulation and the appearance of the antichrist? No! The subject, the time being spoken of is Christ's return. The revealing is done "at that time" and that is why that revealing is the FULL revealing of who the AC was, the man of sin.

Christ will "destroy" the role of the antichrist with the "spirit of his mouth" and with the "brightness of his coming".
So Jesus has returned, and he is enacting judgment
12 That they all might be damned (judged?) who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And he reveals the true nature of the AC to those being judged.
Is that what you are saying?