Here's the second part of my response to Ahw:
The scripture gives the details of His returning for us stating the the dead believers would rise first (all at the same time). And immediately after that, the living would be transformed and caught up with those dead who will have just resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. At that point, the entire church from beginning to end will be in the same place at the same time and be taken back to the Father's house.
It is precisely this idea that you have NO EVIDENCE FOR. Only pure speculation. Your "math" is off. By a lot.
Both Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 show that all believers are resurrected at the same time. From this paragraph, you forgot all about the trib martyrs. They have believed in Jesus Christ and will reign with Him for 1,000 yrs. So why do you exclude them?
They are no less church age believers than anyone else from Christ's resurrection to the trib.
According to your claim above for believers who die, Jesus would be making thousands of daily trips to gather each believer every time one died, which is not supported by the context.
I guess you're really having a hard time with the "math". I have explained what v.3 means. You're going to have to explain what you think "come back" means. If He meant after His death, burial and resurrection, He would have taken the 11 with Him to heaven in Acts 1, which He clearly didn't do.
It cannot refer to any kind of pretrib rapture, because by that time all of the 11 will already be in heaven. So Jesus wouldn't have to "come back" for any of them. They will already be in heaven.
So it has to mean when Jesus comes back AT THE SECOND ADVENT, the 11 will always be with Him.
You are correct, there is no resurrection in the middle of the tribulation. There are in fact two! The Two witnesses will be killed by the angel of the Abyss/beast after their 1260 days of prophesying and will resurrect 3 1/2 days later, ascending up into heaven. Around the same time, the Male Child/144,000 will be transformed and caught up to God's throne.
This is getting seriously twisted.
First, neither of the 2W receive immortal bodies, or the Bible would note that. They will be "raised to life" in the SAME WAY as everyone in Acts who died and was raised to life was. No different. Many people were noted to have come back to life in Acts. Yet, NONE of them received immortal bodies. I've read no scholar who makes the claim otherwise.
Both of the 2W left earth back to heaven the SAME WAY they left the first time. In their physical bodies.
I said:
"The Bible does NOT say the 2W are given immortal bodies. They will be raised up the SAME WAY everyone in Acts was raised from the dead."
False! It is evident that you do not have a lot of study on this topic. In Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, he was talking about the resurrection and had the following to say:
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Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Then
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. - 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
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The scripture above is synonymous with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, for it is speaking about the same event.
Rather, you have revealed your own lack of study and/or thought about this matter.
Most scholars believe that the 2W are Enoch and Elijah, prophets who never physically died. They get their opportunity during the Trib. Given the verses above, explain how 2 men in the OT were taken to heaven without physically dying.
Since you can't argue anything against them going to heaven with their physical bodies, you can't about the 2W in the Trib.
Notice that Paul says that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," which means that we cannot go to heaven in our mortal bodies which decay. The mystery that Paul talks about in the first part of the scripture is that those who are still alive will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be fit for heaven.
You'll have to take this up with God. Complain to Him about why He took Enoch and Elijah to heaven without them dying first.
Even remind God of the verses you just quoted. Let me know what He tells you. I'm sure it will be quite constructive.
I said:
"All believers from ALL time (Adam forward) are resurrected at the SAME TIME, which is at the Second Advent."
This stomps all over other scriptures.
Show me ANY verse that I have stomped on. What a ludicrous comment. It's the pretribbers who have NO VERSE that shows Jesus taking resurrectted/raptured believers to heaven, yet the Bible shows clearly that it treats the resurrection of all saints as a single event. Not "phased" resurrections, which are DEMANDED for a pretrib rapture claim.
Why is it that you guys grab certain scriptures, but sweep the other under the rug?
To be clear, we "grab" the very Scriptures that REFUTE the pretrib rapture theory. As to sweeping veses under the rug, that's your technique. 2 Thess 2:1 couldn't be more clear about WHEN the rapture occurs: when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
And Rev 20:4,5 backs that up completely.
Believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Since God's wrath covers the entire seven years, then we cannot enter into that period in keeping with the scriptures and God's nature, which you are ignoring.
Rather, I and others have been explaining them properly.
Just remember, the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. That's the barrier and cannot be changed.
"must be"... So show me any verse that proves your claim. I don't believe your claim.
Here's why I don't believe you:
1. no verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. That's the foundation of pretrib rapture.
2. no verses showing that the "first resurrection" will be in phases.
here's why you should believe in a posttrib rapture:
1. 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:4,5 show that the rapture occurs at the Second Advent.
2. Both Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 clearly show that the resurrection of saints is a SINGULAR event, not a phased event.