Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I've highlighted the main point of the verse. Do you believe the red words? It seems to me that you don't believe them.

What say you?

[1Pe 1:19-21 KJV]
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

OK, good to know. You DON'T believe the red words. Wowsers.

btw, in YOUR OWN quoted verse, didn't you read the bolded words at the end: that "YOUR FAITH and HOPE".

So, who'se faith? YOUR.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Belief is not "produced". It's not a production. It's trust. Maybe you just don't understand that either.

Whatever.

Dismiss whatever you want. You used the word, which is a bogus word when discussing belief or faith. But, whatever.

According to you it is our trust then and not faith

I made it clear that trust and belief and faith are the same thing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
4 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

The word "us" as in "He chose us" is defined as "us who believe" in v.19.

 

[rogerg]

he real question here is why do you think that "believing from the heart" doesn't save when Rom 10:9 says it does?

Because true belief from the heart is a gift from God and is not of ourselves. Were it of/by/from us, it would mean
that imperfection (our belief) had purchased perfection (salvation). This possibility is neither reasonable nor possible.
It would also mean that should it be of ourselves, then we would also control, and thereby give to ourselves, righteousness. This possibility too is neither reasonable nor possible.

Please, explain what you perceive the role of a Savior to be, and what it is you think He has provided in order to save?

[Rom 3:24 KJV]
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[Rom 3:22-24 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing[G1492] that[G3754] a man[G444] is[G1344] not[G3756] justified[G1344] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law,[G3551] but[G3362] by[G1223] the faith[G4102] of Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] even[G2532] we[G2249] have believed[G4100] in[G1519] Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] that[G2443] we might be justified[G1344] by[G1537] the faith[G4102] of Christ,[G5547] and[G2532] not[G3756] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law:[G3551] for[G1360] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law[G3551] shall[G1344] no[G3756][G3956] flesh[G4561] be justified.[G1344]

 

[Icedaisey]

Yes, and it's sad to see. And what does the Bible say about the blind leading the blind?

You claimed "Faith is a work" – Post #1,044

Scripture clearly states faith is not a work ... but, hey, you want to claim "faith is a work" that is on you.

Also check out Hebrews 11:6

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him [God]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

"faith is a work."


Then they asked Him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent." John 6:28-29

 

[Icedaisey]

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
4 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

Goes to support the doctrine of the elect of God.
You know you're going to have a lot pushback against that scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
he real question here is why do you think that "believing from the heart" doesn't save when Rom 10:9 says it does?

Because true belief from the heart is a gift from God and is not of ourselves. Were it of/by/from us, it would mean that imperfection (our belief) had purchased perfection (salvation). This possibility is neither reasonable nor possible. It would also mean that should it be of ourselves, then we would also control, and thereby give to ourselves, righteousness. This possibility too is neither reasonable nor possible.

To summarize your view for your benefit then, is that God has chosen who will believe by giving them "belief from the heart" so they will be saved.

This is just another form of unbiblical Calvinism. God is pleased to save those who believe, per 1 Cor 1:21.

And, there are NO verses that say what you claim, that "believing from the heart" is a gift from God.

Man is saved by receiving the gift of eternal life through faith.

For context by which we can understand Rom 10:10 (believing from the heart) let's look as some verses:

10-
1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.
2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

"believes" in v.4 is a present participle ACTIVE voice. This means the action is performed by the "everyone who believes". If this action of believing comes from God, as you claim, then the voice would have been passive.

So the Bible points to the person believing from the heart, not God gifting the action of belief. There are NO verses that say that.

Now, back a few verses, to ch 9
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

These verses clearly indicate that people MUST believe the gospel to be saved. That salvation is NOT by their works. It is by their faith.

Please, explain what you perceive the role of a Savior to be, and what it is you think He has provided in order to save?

Haven't you asked this before?

The role of the Savior is to save, obviously. And He DOES save those who believe, as 1 Cor 1:21 clearly states.

In order to save someone, the gift of eternal life must be given. And that is exactly what the Savior, Jesus, does for those who believe.

John 3:15,16, 5:24, 10:28

[Rom 3:24 KJV]
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[Rom 3:22-24 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing[G1492] that[G3754] a man[G444] is[G1344] not[G3756] justified[G1344] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law,[G3551] but[G3362] by[G1223] the faith[G4102] of Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] even[G2532] we[G2249] have believed[G4100] in[G1519] Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] that[G2443] we might be justified[G1344] by[G1537] the faith[G4102] of Christ,[G5547] and[G2532] not[G3756] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law:[G3551] for[G1360] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law[G3551] shall[G1344] no[G3756][G3956] flesh[G4561] be justified.[G1344]

OK. What is your point here? Quoting a verse(s) without any explanation doesn't help. What do you think these verses mean?

Only then can I address the verses. However, regarding Gal 2:16 I have an interlinear that puts the word "in" in parentheses after the "of" both times.

So, it would look like this:

know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"faith is a work."

Please read Eph 2:8m,9 and Rom 4:4,5

They contrast faith from work.

Then they asked Him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent." John 6:28-29

Jesus' answer was in response to the Jews question about what God requires to have eternal life. They viewed it as a work that God required.

So Jesus used their own word in His answer. Jesus was NOT saying faith or believing is a work, as you claim.

He was saying that one is saved by believing.

If Jesus really did mean that faith/believing is a work, then He would have contradicted both Eph 2;8,9 and Rom 4:4,5.

Since you disagree with me by default, address each passage and prove to me from them that faith is a work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Miriam_Jasmine said:
Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
4 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

Goes to support the doctrine of the elect of God.
You know you're going to have a lot pushback against that scripture.

Or, explain it accurately. This is a very misunderstood and abused by Calvinists verse.

The "us" in "He chose us'' is defined in v.19 as "us who believe". There is no reason to assume/presume that the "us" in v.19 is somehow different than the "us" in v.4. Unless you can prove that they are different in some significant way.

btw, concerning "the doctrine of the elect of God", in EVERY example of the purpose by which God chose them, the purpose was for service, including Judas the betrayer in John 6:70,71 -
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

This is "election" in a nutshell.

Red words are who God chose, or elected.

Blue words are the purpose for which God chose them. Service.

Now, if you disagree, please quote any verse that says that God chose (anyone) for salvation.

Not holding my breath.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

[Jas 2:18, 20, 26 KJV]

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. ...
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

so if we're going to claim that faith is of us, we'd better have the works to go with it.
But we can't be saved by our works no matter how small they are - we are only saved by Christ - He is the Savior

Who claims that "faith is of us"? I believe everyone who has posted in this thread is in agreement that everything we have is a gracious gift from God.


Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechó – which means to suppress] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


Unbelievers reject what is true. They hear God's truth and they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. This is why Rom 1:20 tells us unbelievers are without excuse. Come judgment day, the unbeliever will not be able to stand before God and say "God, You gave rogerg faith but You withheld from me what I needed to come to faith". Nope. The unbeliever will have revealed to him/her the fact that he/she suppressed the truth in unrighteousness when God revealed that which may be known of God and that God truly shewed it unto them and they rejected God.

Believers do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness. If/when they hear God's truth, they do not suppress the truth and this results in faith – faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17). Their faith is strengthened and grows stronger each time they hear truth and do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness.


And I understand you and I do not agree on this point. All I ask is that you at least consider ... let God work in your heart to bring understanding concerning this issue.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

[Rom 5:1 KJV] 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Read 5:1 again closely. It doesn't say "we have peace with God through our faith", which is what it would have to
say for your interpretation to be correct.

the verse clearly states:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith

Clearly we are justified by faith.


then the verse goes on to clearly state:

Romans 5:1 … we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


What Romans 5:1 tells us is that because we are justified by faith, we have peace with God and this peace with God is by/in/through our Lord Jesus Christ.

If a born again one is not at peace with God, this does not mean he/she is not born again. What it means is that he/she has been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ (which is where we have peace with God) and is no longer walking in the Spirit. Recall that Gal 5:22 tells us the peace is fruit of the Spirit. If we are not at peace with God, we just need to turn our hearts back to the Lord Jesus Christ, abide in Him, and again walk in the Spirit.

Instead, it says that "we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ", so the faith must be of the Lord Jesus Christ, not of ourselves.

Your conclusion is faulty. You are deconstructing the verse and reconstructing it to make a claim that renders a straight reading of the text meaningless.


Therefore, being justified by faith

we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You claimed "Faith is a work" – Post #1,044

Scripture clearly states faith is not a work ... but, hey, you want to claim "faith is a work" that is on you.

Also check out Hebrews 11:6

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him [God]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

"faith is a work."

Then they asked Him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent." John 6:28-29

In vs John 6:28, the people asked Jesus

What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

They asked what they could do to do the things the Lord Jesus Christ had done when He healed people of their diseases (John 6:2) and/or fed the about five thousand with the five barley loaves and two small fishes, and then gathered 12 baskets full of leftovers (John 6:9-13).

They were not interested in justification (which is not by works – Rom 4:5). They were interested in feeding themselves and/or performing miracles and/or making Jesus Christ a king over them so He could continue to (physically) feed and heal them (John 6:15).

In answer to their question concerning what they could do in order to work the works of God (i.e. miracles/healing/feeding themselves), Jesus told them to believe on him [Christ] whom he [God] hath sent (John 6:29).


Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Icedaisey]

In vs John 6:28, the people asked Jesus

What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

They asked what they could do to do the things the Lord Jesus Christ had done when He healed people of their diseases (John 6:2) and/or fed the about five thousand with the five barley loaves and two small fishes, and then gathered 12 baskets full of leftovers (John 6:9-13).

They were not interested in justification (which is not by works – Rom 4:5). They were interested in feeding themselves and/or performing miracles and/or making Jesus Christ a king over them so He could continue to (physically) feed and heal them (John 6:15).

In answer to their question concerning what they could do in order to work the works of God (i.e. miracles/healing/feeding themselves), Jesus told them to believe on him [Christ] whom he [God] hath sent (John 6:29).


Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The works of God are not to be equated to what some teachings impart as working to attain or retain Salvation in Christ.

 

[1ofthem]

I always find it baffling how one side can see it so clearly one way and the other side can only see it clearly the other way.

I have put much energy into trying to understand each side's points.


John 3.

God sent his only begotten Son so that whosoever will believe upon him will not perish.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Light came into the world men were able to see the light, yet they chose to remain in darkness because they did not want to be reproved.

God didn't cause or force any to remain in darkness. Why would He even send the light into this world to sacrifice and die for our sins... if He had already chosen some to be saved regardless.

That would be nonsense. No sense for Jesus to be crucified and sacrificed... if God had already chosen some that He was going to save and was going to pass by others.

God is sovereign. He does as He will. In the beginning, He created the plan for salvation and it seems clearly evident from reading the scriptures that He has allowed men choice all throughout the ages.

 

[rogerg]

OK, good to know. You DON'T believe the red words. Wowsers.

No red words that I can see. Try again.

btw, in YOUR OWN quoted verse, didn't you read the bolded words at the end: that "YOUR FAITH and HOPE".

I did read it.

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

"BY HIM do believe in God" ; that is, they believe solely because of God's work so that "their faith and hope might be in God" and not in themselves All God's work.

So, who'se faith? YOUR.

I don't understand your point above

 

[rogerg]

To summarize your view for your benefit then, is that God has chosen who will believe by giving them "belief from the heart" so they will be saved.

And, there are NO verses that say what you claim, that "believing from the heart" is a gift from God.

True belief is a gift. See Gal 2:16.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing[G1492] that[G3754] a man[G444] is[G1344] not[G3756] justified[G1344] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law,[G3551] but[G3362] by[G1223] the faith[G4102] of Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] even[G2532] we[G2249] have believed[G4100] in[G1519] Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] that[G2443] we might be justified[G1344] by[G1537] the faith[G4102] of Christ,[G5547] and[G2532] not[G3756] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law:[G3551] for[G1360] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law[G3551] shall[G1344] no[G3756][G3956] flesh[G4561] be justified.[G1344]

because of Christ's faithfulness the Elect are given faith as a gift. If someone truly believes (trusts) in Christ it is because it was given them. That's what I meat by "from the heart".

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Now, back a few verses, to ch 9
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.
2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

"believes" in v.4 is a present participle ACTIVE voice. This means the action is performed by the "everyone who believes". If this action of believing comes from God, as you claim, then the voice would have been passive.

So the Bible points to the person believing from the heart, not God gifting the action of belief. There are NO verses that say that.

It does.
See Gal 2:16 above

OK. What is your point here? Quoting a verse(s) without any explanation doesn't help. What do you think these verses mean?

Haven't you asked this before?

The role of the Savior is to save, obviously. And He DOES save those who believe, as 1 Cor 1:21 clearly states.

In order to save someone, the gift of eternal life must be given. And that is exactly what the Savior, Jesus, does for those who believe.

Your definition of salvation takes the act of saving from the Savior and puts it on the individual. In other words, if there is only
even only one thing that a person must do to become saved, which, per your statement, is that it is up to them to believe, then whether they become saved or not, is dependent upon themselves. If they do it, then they become their own Savior and thereby take the title of Savior from Christ. If they don't do it, then they again take the title of savior away from Christ and make themselves the un-savior. It can't work that way as there is no Savior besides Christ alone.

If He is the Savior, then He, and He alone, must be the one who saves with no contribution from anyone else permitted.

OK. What is your point here? Quoting a verse(s) without any explanation doesn't help. What do you think these verses mean?

My point? My point is that the righteousness of God is by the faith of Jesus Christ: Christ's faith, not by ours - our faith, of itself, cannot NOT bring righteousness to us, so our faith then cannot bring salvation, as you seem to believe that it does


The reason I posted the verse with the Greek, was to demonstrate that the "in" is only present in the "believed in Christ" part. Otherwise, the verse says by the faith "OF" Christ - Christ's faith, not ours. This means that we are given faith because of, and through, Christ's faithfulness, as a gift. If the verse was written as you interpret it, it would in effect be saying "by the faith in Christ" we have "believed in Christ". That would be both illogical and non-sensical. Nevertheless, it doesn't say "in" it says "of"

know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Look at the Greek. The "in" (eis) is in the verse where it was intended to be - in one place. If God had wanted it present elsewhere,
He would have added there, but He didn't, so it shouldn't be anywhere else. The interpretation you've proved does an injustice
to the verse and substantially changes its meaning- a very bad thing to do indeed

Now, back a few verses, to ch 9
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

"a righteousness that is by faith" (above) - your example. It is Christ's faith that is in view. Look at the verses I provided again below. Can you see that it tells us that the "righteousness of God" is "by the faith of Jesus Christ" and not of/by an individual?
That is, all who truly believe (from the heart), do so because of the righteousness of God and the faith of Christ

22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[FreeGrace2]

No red words that I can see. Try again.

This is a total cop-out. I color coded the verses. But you'd rather dodge than engage.

FreeGrace2 said:
So, who'se faith? YOUR.

I don't understand your point above

The point from the verse is that the Bible recognizes the person's faith, not as a gift from God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

True belief is a gift. See Gal 2:16.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing[G1492] that[G3754] a man[G444] is[G1344] not[G3756] justified[G1344] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law,[G3551] but[G3362] by[G1223] the faith[G4102] of Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] even[G2532] we[G2249] have believed[G4100] in[G1519] Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] that[G2443] we might be justified[G1344] by[G1537] the faith[G4102] of Christ,[G5547] and[G2532] not[G3756] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law:[G3551] for[G1360] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law[G3551] shall[G1344] no[G3756][G3956] flesh[G4561] be justified.[G1344]

What kind of junk is this? Why include Strong's numbers? They only distract from the verse.

I addressed that verse. The "faith of Christ" that was in your post can be translated "faith IN Christ".

New International Version
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

New Living Translation
Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”

English Standard Version
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Berean Study Bible
know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

King James Bible
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

New King James Version
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

New American Standard Bible
nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


Amplified Bible
yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus. And even we [as Jews] have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law. By observing the Law no one will ever be justified [declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty].

Christian Standard Bible
and yet because we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we ourselves have believed in Christ Jesus. This was so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

American Standard Version
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Yet, we know that people don't receive God's approval because of their own efforts to live according to a set of standards, but only by believing in Jesus Christ. So we also believed in Jesus Christ in order to receive God's approval by faith in Christ and not because of our own efforts. People won't receive God's approval because of their own efforts to live according to a set of standards.

New Heart English Bible
yet knowing that no one is justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Weymouth New Testament
know that it is not through obedience to Law that a man can be declared free from guilt, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. We have therefore believed in Christ Jesus, for the purpose of being declared free from guilt, through faith in Christ and not through obedience to Law. For through obedience to Law no human being shall be declared free from guilt.

World English Bible
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

because of Christ's faithfulness the Elect are given faith as a gift.

Except you have no verse that supports this claim.

If someone truly believes (trusts) in Christ it is because it was given them.

You still have no verse that says that you keep claiming.

That's what I meat by "from the heart".

Your definition of salvation takes the act of saving from the Savior and puts it on the individual.

I NEVER said our act of faith in Christ saves us. It is God who saves us. And 1 Cor 1:21 says that God is pleased to save those who believe, so you have no case.

What you have misunderstood is that God's plan is as 1 Cor 1:21 says; to save those who believe.

If He is the Savior, then He, and He alone, must be the one who saves with no contribution from anyone else permitted.

Then you just do not understand that faith in Christ is non-meritorious.

Believing or trust doesn't provide any kind of "contribution" to God. He is not benefitted in any way. Faith is non meritorious because we are saved by grace through faith. We earn nothing by believing. That's grace.

The reason I posted the verse with the Greek, was to demonstrate that the "in" is only present in the "believed in Christ" part. Otherwise, the verse says by the faith "OF" Christ - Christ's faith, not ours.

Read all the translations I have given above.

 

[Mem]

Believing or trust doesn't provide any kind of "contribution" to God. He is not benefitted in any way. Faith is non meritorious because we are saved by grace through faith. We earn nothing by believing. That's grace.

And the converse of not trusting in God doesn't detract anything from His work is true also. Neither is He any less faithful because we are unfaithful. Indeed, trusting in Him is, in actuality, giving Him all credit as our Savior, proven Faithful and True. All that remains for us is whether we accept the proof as valid or reject it.

 

[rogerg]

What kind of junk is this? Why include Strong's numbers? They only distract from the verse.

I addressed that verse. The "faith of Christ" that was in your post can be translated "faith IN Christ".

I include what I want to and if you don't like it don't read it. You don't give the orders about my posts