The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[FreeGrace2]

post 778 did you understand it ? You want to discuss the points?

Did you miss my post 779? I explained the use of "many" in the NT and PROVED that you can't use "many" to argue that Christ didn't die for everyone.

Because it means Christ DID die for everyone, not JUST A FEW, as Matt 7:14 says.

So, to boil it all down, Christ died for the MANY, yet ONLY A FEW find the narrow path to life.

Not hard to figure out.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

since (according to you) they already have life

According to the Messiah's words, they shall have. I posted the passage and then repeated it in bullet form.

Why do you parse out snippets of what I asked you? ... and then you do not answer the question

Yahshua said:

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.​

​

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.​

​

- They, THE sheep, the SAME sheep, are His sheep. The context is carried all the way through from verse 1​

​

- The Messiah gives His life for THE sheep, His sheep; The only sheep mentioned up to this point.​

I responded:

since (according to you) they already have life, and since (according to you) "They, THE sheep, know His voice and follow Him" and " "THE sheep" are men who follow Messiah; His sheep" there is no need for this warning concerning the thief.​

​

Clearly this warning is to alert sheep to not follow the thief who enters by some other way than the door to the sheepfold. Since we know from John 10:5 that those who are His sheep will not follow another shepherd, do you think there is any chance the warning in John 10:10 applies to those who are not yet His sheep?​

fyi ... there are nuances in John 10 which would be good for us to understand ...

Example:

In vss 1-2, Jesus tells us those who climbeth up some other way are thieves and robbers (vs 1); and he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep (vs 2);

In vs 7, Jesus tells us He is the door;

In vs 11, Jesus tells us He is the good Shepherd;


In order to fully understand what God wants us to understand, we need to read with comprehension. Put aside what we think we know and come to God's Word with a heart ready to receive from God that which He wants us to understand.

Clearly this warning is to alert sheep to not follow the thief who enters by some other way than the door to the sheepfold.

It's not a warning at all. He's not talking to His sheep or alerting them of anything. He's talking to the corrupt Pharisees and religious leaders, stating a fact about His followers vs. those who are not His followers, through a parable. Fact: His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Fact: He lays down His life for His sheep. Fact: they shall have eternal life. Fact: thieves steal from the sheep, kill and destroy them, and scatter them.

Fact: Throughout all of Scripture, God gives warning after warning to His people to not be led astray ... one example of many is Ephesians 4:14 where God tells His people be no more children, tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.


and fyi ... John 10:10 is not part of the parable. John 10:10 provides information/explanation concerning the parable in vss 1-5.

John 10:10 The thief [those who do not enter in through the door (vs1)] cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I [He that enters in through the door (vs1)] am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Ok, but can you share any scripture that supports this definition of grace, the way Hogg and Vine have verses to support their definition of mercy? Something you can point me to? Otherwise, what you've defined here is God's unmerited favor, which is called "favor".

Grace is God's unmerited favor.

Grace is God extending to mankind that which mankind does not deserve.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man


Mercy is God withholding that which mankind does deserve (judgment).

Numbers 14:18 18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

1 Chronicles 16:34 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 86:15 But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.

Psalm 89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

If grace is God "extending towards" people, how does one "grow in grace" as Peter tells his readers to do in 2 Peter 3:18? Is Peter telling them to "grow in God's reach to them"??? If so, Peter is giving an impossible command because God extending Himself towards people is His own doing, not a function of people.

Read 2 Peter 3:17 together with 2 Peter 3:18 (and verses before vs 17 in order to understand the whole context):

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

In vs 17, we are given warning that we should not be led away through error.

In vs 18, we are encouraged to grow in grace.

God's grace is boundless ... there is no end to God's grace. We can never reach its end. We can, however, not receive all God has in store for us. In James 4:6 we are told:

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

If we are prideful, we resist God and God resists us. To resist is to oppose ... it's like putting a kink in a hose.

As we humble ourselves before God, we avail ourselves of more and more of God's grace.

And, again, we will never reach the end of God's grace. We can, however, dive deeper into God's grace and have His grace permeate our lives to the fullest.


Here is something Spurgeon says about God's grace:

“But you will remark that our text does not say anything about grace growing; it does not say that grace grows. It tells us to ‘grow in grace.’ There is a vast difference between grace growing and our growing in grace. God’s grace never increases; it is always infinite, so it cannot be more; it is always everlasting; it is always bottomless; it is always shoreless. It cannot be more; and, in the nature of God, it could not be less. The text tells us to ‘grow in grace.’ We are in the sea of God’s grace; we cannot be in a deeper sea, but let us grow now we are in it.” (Spurgeon)​

 

[Yahshua]

I said I wasn't posting in this thread any longer, but considering you hadn't had a chance to reply to me like the other did I'll post back to you and then leave it here.

Why do you parse out snippets of what I asked you? ... and then you do not answer the question

A question based on a false premise is an unanswerable question. While a question based on two false premises is even more impossible.

1st false premise of your question: it wasn't "according to me" but according to the text that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

2nd false premise: The Messiah wasn't giving any warning. He was stating a fact, speaking directly to the Pharisees with everyone else around. He was accusing them. The context of the scene is established at the end of John 9. They asked Him "are we blind?"

Put aside what we think we know and come to God's Word with a heart ready to receive from God that which He wants us to understand.

This is a profound truth. One can only hope this great advice is also heeded by the givers. There is still much for all of us to learn and to teach each other.

Fact: Throughout all of Scripture, God gives warning after warning to His people to not be led astray ... one example of many is Ephesians 4:14 where God tells His people be no more children, tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

Truly. But the scene in question wasn't one of those warnings. The context is established in John 9.

Grace is God's unmerited favor.

Grace is God extending to mankind that which mankind does not deserve.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Grace is a gift. And grace is undeserved. But grace isn't favor. Favor is favor. Grace is defined below.


Titus 2:11-12
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


We need verse 12 to complete the thought and explain that grace is the power of God to say "no" to ungodliness and live righteously and godly. Without verse 12 all we know is that "something from God called grace appeared to all men". Without verse 12 anyone can craft whatever they'd like grace's definition to be.

Notice how profound the Hebrews passage is when we insert the definition of grace into the verse.


Hebrews 2:9 [inserting scripture's definition of grace]
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by [the power of God to say "no" to ungodliness and live godly] should taste death for every man


^This is exactly what Messiah did. He was sinless; obedient to God all of His life. Full of The Almighty's divine power to live righteously and say "no" to sin.


John 1:14-17 [inserting scripture's definition of grace]
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of [Divine power to live righteously] and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and [Divine power] upon [Divine power]

17 For the law was given by Moses, but [the Divine power to live righteously] and truth came by Jesus Christ.


The law alone condemns all man, but with the divine power of Christ to live righteously, we fulfill the law.

We let all of the scripture explain itself.

Here is something Spurgeon says about God's grace:

“But you will remark that our text does not say anything about grace growing; it does not say that grace grows. It tells us to ‘grow in grace.’ There is a vast difference between grace growing and our growing in grace. God’s grace never increases; it is always infinite, so it cannot be more; it is always everlasting; it is always bottomless; it is always shoreless. It cannot be more; and, in the nature of God, it could not be less. The text tells us to ‘grow in grace.’ We are in the sea of God’s grace; we cannot be in a deeper sea, but let us grow now we are in it.” (Spurgeon)

This sounds good, but it is based on a false idea of what grace is, passed down from the "church fathers".

2 Peter 3:17-18 [inserting scripture's definition of grace]
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in [the Divine power to live righteously] and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


Recall Paul's "thorn". He asked for it to be taken away from Him. Notice how perfectly harmonious the following passage is when we insert scripture's definition of grace:


2 Corinthians 12:7-9 [inserting scripture's definition of grace]
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My [the Divine power to live righteously] is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


His "thorn in the flesh" was the angel of Satan. Scripture says the flesh compels us to sin and that Satan is the messenger of temptation. Paul has a particular sin he kept committing and asked for the temptation to be removed multiple times but the Almighty refused, saying His power to resist sin and live righteously is sufficient for Paul, calling it His "strength" and Paul calling it Christ's "power".


Be blessed.

 

[brightfame52]

Delivers from Death !

Christ's Covenental Death, for those He did die for, He delivers them from death and the fear of it Heb 2:14-15

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

By the Blood of His Covenant Zech 9:11

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

This speaks of deliverance !

All God's Children are given to know the reality of eternal judgment and death Heb 6:1-2

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Recall when felix trembled at Paul's witnessing, trembled of the Judgment to come Acts 24:25

And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

So thoughts of Judgment produces fear like here 1 Jn 4:17-18

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

But Christ's Covenental Death delivers from both. Again lets read Zech 9:11-12

11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

These are the prisoners of hope also Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Notice again the word Covenant in Vs 6,for that speaks of Christ's Covenant Death !

So all for whom Christ died shall be delivered from the fear of Death, the second death and the fear of the Eternal Judgment disappears more and more as the Eternal Love of God for us is more and more perceived and comprehended 1 Jn 4:11-20.

BTW, This Truth also exposes those who live their so called christian life out of a mercenary spirit of fear of loosing their salvation and reward, meaning they do fear eternal death if they do not walk the straight and narrow, this exposes them as being strangers to the Love of God, and shows they are trusting in their arm of the flesh, and not for what has been accomplished by Christ's Covenantal Death for God's People out of His Eternal Love for them !

 

[brightfame52]

Did you miss my post 779? I explained the use of "many" in the NT and PROVED that you can't use "many" to argue that Christ didn't die for everyone.

Because it means Christ DID die for everyone, not JUST A FEW, as Matt 7:14 says.

So, to boil it all down, Christ died for the MANY, yet ONLY A FEW find the narrow path to life.

Not hard to figure out.

So you want to ditch my post ? What was post 778 about ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Did you miss my post 779? I explained the use of "many" in the NT and PROVED that you can't use "many" to argue that Christ didn't die for everyone.

Because it means Christ DID die for everyone, not JUST A FEW, as Matt 7:14 says.

So, to boil it all down, Christ died for the MANY, yet ONLY A FEW find the narrow path to life.

Not hard to figure out.

So you want to ditch my post ? What was post 778 about ?

You asked me to comment on your post 778. I did in 779. It refuted your ideas.

Prove me wrong, if you can, by showing me that Scripture says differently than I believe.

 

[soberxp]

Can you forgive anyone hurt you?
Can you love your enemies ?
If not it's a board way not the narrow path to life.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

speaking directly to the Pharisees with everyone else around.

My question: do you think there is any chance the warning in John 10:10 applies to those who are not yet His sheep?

You answered my question with your words "with everyone else around". Thank you.

Put aside what we think we know and come to God's Word with a heart ready to receive from God that which He wants us to understand.

This is a profound truth. One can only hope this great advice is also heeded by the givers.

... as well as receivers.

There is still much for all of us to learn and to teach each other.

in agreement.

Fact: Throughout all of Scripture, God gives warning after warning to His people to not be led astray ... one example of many is Ephesians 4:14 where God tells His people be no more children, tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

Truly. But the scene in question wasn't one of those warnings. The context is established in John 9.

Since you have already agreed that Jesus spoke to "Pharisees with everyone else around", there could be just a hint of a slight possibility that Jesus was giving warning to the "everyone else around", even as He rebuked the pharisees.

Grace is a gift. And grace is undeserved. But grace isn't favor. Favor is favor. Grace is defined below.

Look up the word "favour" in the Bible (have to spell it with the "u"). The Greek word is charis (grace).


fyi ... I provided the definition of "grace" in Post #729:

Grace:​

favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – grace is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himselfaway to people (because He is "always leaning toward them").​

​

"grace" answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.​

We need verse 12 to complete the thought and explain that grace is the power of God to say "no" to ungodliness and live righteously and godly. Without verse 12 all we know is that "something from God called grace appeared to all men". Without verse 12 anyone can craft whatever they'd like grace's definition to be.

Yes, grace has appeared to all men. All means all. The word "men" in Titus 2:11 is the Greek word anthrōpos which means mankind (a human being, whether male or female).

In vs 12, we have the purpose of God's grace ... the purpose does not equal the definition.

And the purpose of God's grace is to teach all mankind to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

However, some men and women prefer to suppress this truth in unrighteousness and continue to live an ungodly lifestyle and hold to worldly lusts. sad.

Notice how profound the Hebrews passage is when we insert the definition of grace into the verse.

No thanks. Please allow me to read Scripture as is. Thank you.

Hebrews 2:9 [inserting scripture's Yahshua's definition of grace]
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by [the power of God to say "no" to ungodliness and live godly] should taste death for every man

^This is exactly what Messiah did. He was sinless; obedient to God all of His life. Full of The Almighty's divine power to live righteously and say "no" to sin.

So according to you, Jesus needed to be filled with "The Almighty's divine power to live righteously" ... Otherwise He would have been just like you/me? ... and He would have sinned?

We let all of the scripture explain itself.

Claiming the purpose of grace is the definition of grace is not letting "all of the scripture explain itself" (imho).

His "thorn in the flesh" was the angel of Satan. Scripture says the flesh compels us to sin and that Satan is the messenger of temptation. Paul has a particular sin he kept committing and asked for the temptation to be removed multiple times but the Almighty refused, saying His power to resist sin and live righteously is sufficient for Paul, calling it His "strength" and Paul calling it Christ's "power".

Yes, in agreement that the primary culprit was satan. However, Paul's thorn in the flesh was comprised of the people who subjected him to many trials as shown in 2 Cor 11:23-33. Paul suffered much affliction from people who pursued after him to bring ruin to his ministry and to Paul personally.


Look at Scripture from the Old Testament concerning the term "thorn in the flesh":

Numbers 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Joshua 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Judges 2:2-3 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

Be blessed.

Thank you. God bless you as well.

 

[Yahshua]

My question: do you think there is any chance the warning in John 10:10 applies to those who are not yet His sheep?

You answered my question with your words "with everyone else around". Thank you.

If you'll simply piece together any words to reach the answer you want then why ask?

Since you have already agreed that Jesus spoke to "Pharisees with everyone else around", there could be just a hint of a slight possibility that Jesus was giving warning to the "everyone else around", even as He rebuked the pharisees.

I think you're reaching...but feel free to believe whatever you like. I must stick with the context given.

Yes, in agreement that the primary culprit was satan. However, Paul's thorn in the flesh was comprised of the people who subjected him to many trials as shown in 2 Cor 11:23-33. Paul suffered much affliction from people who pursued after him to bring ruin to his ministry and to Paul personally.

Incorrect. He spoke of the other trials prior to the thorn and then he spoke of his "thorn" specifically as part of the list of things he's dealing with. Paul was listing everything he was going through, the last of which was the "thorn of the flesh". He then concludes that everything he's been dealing with was for the sake of Christ.


2 Corinthians 12:9-10
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

----

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.


Notwithstanding, in 2 Corinthians 12:9 - particularly for his thorn - grace is clearly defined twice: God's strength and Christ's power. "it's wherefore the 'therefore' is there for". Feel free to use any definition you want, I must allow scripture to define its terms for me.

The grace of God has indeed appeared to all mankind everywhere in the person of Christ. One must believe in Him to receive the gift. No one receives the gift unless and until they believe in Him.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

No, I'm asking for just ONE verse that says in very plain unambiguous words that Christ either DIDN'T die for everyone, or that He ONLY died for some.

Is that too difficult to find?

I've already given you a number of verses that make clear that He DID die for everyone. And you didn't even try to refute any of them.

From https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff. Read 10 commandments.

link below will let you find out if you are one of God's elect (God gives you the Holy Spirit and the fruits of the spirit) or one of the nonelect (You reject the Holy Spirit, have a seared conscience). Mark 3:29, 1 Timothy 4:1-4, Romans 1:28

https://christianchat.com/testimoni...s-except-christian-stuff.199651/#post-4583333

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If you'll simply piece together any words to reach the answer you want then why ask?

I didn't "simply piece together any words to reach the answer [ I ] want". I asked a question which you refused to answer ... and yet you finally let the cat out of the bag.

Since you have already agreed that Jesus spoke to "Pharisees with everyone else around", there could be just a hint of a slight possibility that Jesus was giving warning to the "everyone else around", even as He rebuked the pharisees.

I think you're reaching...but feel free to believe whatever you like. I must stick with the context given.

Yes, in agreement that the primary culprit was satan. However, Paul's thorn in the flesh was comprised of the people who subjected him to many trials as shown in 2 Cor 11:23-33. Paul suffered much affliction from people who pursued after him to bring ruin to his ministry and to Paul personally.

Incorrect.

Oh, I see ... when you want to include the prior chapter as part of the context (as you did with John 10), that's okay. And when I point out the context in the prior chapter, that's "Incorrect". Got it.


I also provided Scripture which clearly shows how God defined "thorns in your sides" / "thorns in your eyes":

Numbers 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Joshua 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Judges 2:2-3 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.


You are free to ignore God's Word on the subject ...

He spoke of the other trials prior to the thorn and then he spoke of his "thorn" specifically as part of the list of things he's dealing with. Paul was listing everything he was going through, the last of which was the "thorn of the flesh". He then concludes that everything he's been dealing with was for the sake of Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Read Acts ... people reproached Paul ... people persecuted Paul ... people beat Paul with rods. And people do the same to us in our day and time. Thank God for these words when I am weak, then am I strong.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

----

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.


Notwithstanding, in 2 Corinthians 12:9 - particularly for his thorn - grace is clearly defined twice: God's strength and Christ's power. "it's wherefore the 'therefore' is there for". Feel free to use any definition you want, I must allow scripture to define its terms for me.

You're doing the same thing in 2 Corinthians 12 as you did in Titus.

God's strength is not the definition of grace.
Christ's power is not the definition of grace.

We receive God's strength and Christ's power because God is gracious toward us ... but the strength and the power are not "grace". Grace refers to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

Everything from God to mankind is provided through His grace.

Strength and power are not the only "graces" God provides to us.

The grace of God has indeed appeared to all mankind everywhere in the person of Christ. One must believe in Him to receive the gift. No one receives the gift unless and until they believe in Him.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Yahshua]

Oh, I see ... when you want to include the prior chapter as part of the context (as you did with John 10), that's okay. And when I point out the context in the prior chapter, that's "Incorrect". Got it.

Go backward or forward, or cross-reference...but you must be accurate.

You're doing the same thing in 2 Corinthians 12 as you did in Titus.

God's strength is not the definition of grace.
Christ's power is not the definition of grace.

wait......but.......in the quote below, you.....aren't you.......isn't that.....how is that not the same lol???

I also provided Scripture which clearly shows how God defined "thorns in your sides" / "thorns in your eyes":

Numbers 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

...oh never mind.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Oh, I see ... when you want to include the prior chapter as part of the context (as you did with John 10), that's okay. And when I point out the context in the prior chapter, that's "Incorrect". Got it.

Go backward or forward, or cross-reference...but you must be accurate.

We could really read through 2 Corinthians 10, 11, 12, 13 as a whole to understand what Paul is addressing in his writing to the church at Corinth.

Outline of 2 Corinthians - J. Vernon McGee

I. COMFORT of God, Chapters 1—7​

II. COLLECTION for poor saints at Jerusalem, Chapters 8, 9​

III. CALLING of the apostle Paul, Chapters 10—13​

A. Authentication of Paul’s apostleship, Chapter 10​

B. Vindication of Paul’s apostleship, Chapter 11​

C. Revelation of Paul’s apostleship, Chapter 12​

D. Execution of Paul’s apostleship, Chapter 13:1-10​

E. Conclusion of Paul’s apostleship, Chapter 13:11-14​

STUDY RESOURCES :: CHARTS AND OUTLINES :: EXECUTABLE OUTLINES :: 2 CORINTHIANS

I. PAUL EXPLAINS HIS MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION (2Cr 1:12-7:16)​

II. THE COLLECTION FOR THE SAINTS IN JERUSALEM (2Cr 8:1-9:15)​

III. PAUL DEFENDS HIS APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY (2Cr 10:1-13:10)​

Bible>Outline>2 Corinthians

1. Paul Reconciles with the Corinthians ( 1:1⁠–⁠7:16 )​

2. The Collection for Jerusalem ( 8:1⁠–⁠9:15 )​

3. Paul’s Final Challenge ( 10:1⁠–⁠13:14 )​

a. Paul’s Apostolic Authority ( 10:1⁠–⁠12:21 )​

Summary of the Book of 2 Corinthians

​

Purposes​

Because of the occasion that prompted this letter, Paul had a number of purposes in mind:​

1. To express the comfort and joy Paul felt because the Corinthians had responded favorably to his painful letter (1:3-4; 7:8-9,12-13).
2. To let them know about the trouble he went through in the province of Asia (1:8-11).
3. To explain why he had changed his travel plans (1:12 -- 2:4).
4. To ask them to forgive the offending party (2:5-11).
5. To warn them not to be "yoked together with unbelievers" (6:14 -- 7:1).
6. To explain to them the true nature (its joys, sufferings and rewards) and high calling of Christian ministry. This is the so-called great digression, but it turns out to be in some ways the most important section of the letter (2:14 -- 7:4; see note on 2:14).
7. To teach the Corinthians about the grace of giving and to make sure that they complete the collection for the poor Christians at Jerusalem (chs. 8 - 9).
8. To deal with the minority opposition in the church (chs. 10 - 13).
9. To prepare the Corinthians for his upcoming visit (12:14; 13:1-3,10).

You're doing the same thing in 2 Corinthians 12 as you did in Titus.

God's strength is not the definition of grace.
Christ's power is not the definition of grace.

We receive God's strength and Christ's power because God is gracious toward us ... but the strength and the power are not "grace". Grace refers to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

Everything from God to mankind is provided through His grace.

Strength and power are not the only "graces" God provides to us.

wait......but.......in the quote below, you.....aren't you.......isn't that.....how is that not the same lol???

Please read with clarity/comprehension.

When God strengthens us, He does so because He is gracious. Grace is the conduit through which God's strength reaches the believer.

In 2 Cor 12:9, the word "grace" is translated from the Greek word charis. Grace refers to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

the word "strength" and the word "power" are translated from the Greek word dýnamis which means strength, ability, power; inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth.

2 Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace [Greek charis - God freely extending Himself] is sufficient for thee: for my strength [Greek dýnamis - strength, ability, power] is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power [Greek dýnamis - strength, ability, power] of Christ may rest upon me.

When the believer has no strength (i.e. is not relying on him/herself), God's strength is made perfect (to complete (perfect), i. e. add what is yet lacking in order to render a thing full - Thayer's Greek Lexicon).

I also provided Scripture which clearly shows how God defined "thorns in your sides" / "thorns in your eyes":

Numbers 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

...oh never mind.

Relying on usage of words in Scripture to clarify the meaning of words used in other places in Scripture is proper. There are two clear passages in which God tells us that people become thorns in the side of the believer and another passage which indicates people become thorns in their eyes. I would rather use the clear passages wherein God tells us what He means than claim Paul's thorn in the flesh was ... what was it you said? oh yeah "Paul has a particular sin he kept committing".

 

[brightfame52]

FreeGrace2 said:
Did you miss my post 779? I explained the use of "many" in the NT and PROVED that you can't use "many" to argue that Christ didn't die for everyone.

Because it means Christ DID die for everyone, not JUST A FEW, as Matt 7:14 says.

So, to boil it all down, Christ died for the MANY, yet ONLY A FEW find the narrow path to life.

Not hard to figure out.

You asked me to comment on your post 778. I did in 779. It refuted your ideas.

Prove me wrong, if you can, by showing me that Scripture says differently than I believe.

Your comment was a diversion away from discussing my points. You ditched my points to interject your points for discussion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I'm asking for just ONE verse that says in very plain unambiguous words that Christ either DIDN'T die for everyone, or that He ONLY died for some.

Is that too difficult to find?

I've already given you a number of verses that make clear that He DID die for everyone. And you didn't even try to refute any of them.

From https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html

From that website:
All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

I asked for just ONE unambiguous verse that says that Christ either "didn't die for everyone" or that His death was "only for some".

And...NONE of the verses on that Calvinist website provided ANY unambiguous verses that support limited atonement.

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Calvinists wade into false doctrine when they take "total depravity" too far and claim that man cannot respond to the gospel.

TD ONLY means that man is unable to save himself. Responding to the gospel is NOT "saving oneself".

1 Cor 1:21 says "God is pleased...to save those who believe". So those who believe are saved by God, not themselves.

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

More Calvinist error. Election isn't even about salvation. So I challenge you to find ANY verse that shows that salvation is by election.

While you're at it, consider 1 Cor 1:27,28
27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

In EVERY verse that gives a purpose for election, it is ALWAYS service. Never salvation.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Already refuted.

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

None of these verses teach IG. In fact, John 6:44 is explained in the next verse, 45. it is those who have "listened and learned" who will come to Christ. Again, response is free. Those who pay attention come to faith.

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

The biblical doctrine is PRESERVATION of the saints (OSAS) not perseverance. The Bible makes very clear that believers may turn away from the faith. The parable of the soils showed that in soils 2 and 3.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your comment was a diversion away from discussing my points. You ditched my points to interject your points for discussion.

No, I think you may be unfamiliar with what a refutation is. That's what I did. I disproved your points with mine.

And you didn't even bother to try to refute my points. That generally says a lot.

 

[Yahshua]

We could really read through 2 Corinthians 10, 11, 12, 13 as a whole to understand what Paul is addressing in his writing to the church at Corinth.

Not necessary, we just need to be accurate when we pull context.

Relying on usage of words in Scripture to clarify the meaning of words used in other places in Scripture is proper.

It would seem it's you who missed the point..."Relying on usage of words in Scripture to clarify the meaning of words used in other places in Scripture is proper."


2 Corinthians 12:9
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


^^^^ "Relying on usage of words in Scripture to clarify the meaning of words used in other places in Scripture is proper." That's what's been employed in the passage above and in most of my replies [hence the bracket insertions], which you didn't agree with earlier...until you needed to define thorn apparently?

If you're going to be arrogant at least be consistent, friend. If both methods of finding definitions are acceptable, then Grace = God's strength & Christ's power because of word usage, and you've validated my posts. No need for Strong's or Thayer's for thorn or grace.

So like I've been saying, let's let scripture define its terms as you seem to agree with now.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

We could really read through 2 Corinthians 10, 11, 12, 13 as a whole to understand what Paul is addressing in his writing to the church at Corinth.

Not necessary, we just need to be accurate when we pull context.

Oh yes, let's not read verses within the context in which they are set ...

I suppose you have completely disregarded the links to Bible websites (blueletterbible.org; bible hub.com; biblestudytools.com) which show that 2 Corinthians 10 through 2 Corinthians 13 are inter-related?

It would seem it's you who missed the point..."Relying on usage of words in Scripture to clarify the meaning of words used in other places in Scripture is proper."

It is proper. And I directed you to clear verses which indicate how God utilized the term thorn in the flesh ... thorns in your sides ... thorns in your eyes.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The word "thorn" is translated from the Greek word (skólops) which refers to a thorn (sharp splinter) or even a pointed stake


Numbers 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Joshua 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

The word "thorns" in Num 33:55 and Josh 23:13 is translated from the Hebrew word ṣᵊnînîm which means thorn, prick.

So in OT and NT, God used the same terminology ... thorn - a thorn, sharp splinter, prick.


In the OT passages, God clearly tells us that it is people which become thorns in our sides ... thorns in our flesh.

And clearly in the record in 2 Cor 10 - 13, Paul tells of people who were behaving improperly and who beat Paul and who tried to bring Paul's ministry into ruin ...

2 Corinthians 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted ...


2 Corinthians 11:

22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

...

32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:

33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

Paul was not discussing some sin he was involved in as you claim in your Post #783. Paul was telling the believers in Corinth that people who followed after Paul to bring ruin to himself personally or to his ministry were as thorns in his flesh.

As a matter of fact, Paul specifically stated that he followed the law of God:

1 Corinthians 9:

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23 And this I do for the gospel's sake ...

According to 1 Cor 9:21, it is clear Paul did not violate the law of God.

(but you choose to ignore context when it comes to your understanding of 2 Cor 12:7 and prefer to believe Paul had some secret sin as you stated in your Post #783)

2 Corinthians 12:9
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

^^^^ "Relying on usage of words in Scripture to clarify the meaning of words used in other places in Scripture is proper." That's what's been employed in the passage above and in most of my replies [hence the bracket insertions], which you didn't agree with earlier...until you needed to define thorn apparently?

Again, God's grace is not the same as God's strength or Christ's power.

Grace = the Greek word charis.
The Greek word dýnamis is translated strength / power in 2 Cor 12:10.

God's strength and the power of the Lord Jesus Christ is provided to the believer through God's grace. The believer relies on God's strength and the power of the Lord Jesus Christ (which is afforded to the believer because of God's grace) to overcome the trials/afflictions we endure in this lifetime.

Maybe this record from when Jacob and Esau met will help clarify:

Genesis 33:

4 And Esau ran to meet him [Jacob], and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept.

5 And he lifted up his eyes, and saw the women and the children; and said, Who are those with thee? And he said, The children which God hath graciously given thy servant.

The children are not grace ... however, God graciously gave Jacob children.

If you're going to be arrogant ...

no need for personal insults ... perhaps some of that grace/strength/power might help you curb your need to disparage another believer???

Ephesians 4:22-24, 29 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. ... Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

No need for Strong's or Thayer's for thorn or grace.

r-i-g-h-t ... let's just change the meaning of words in Scripture so we can maintain error.

Grace:

charis which means favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – grace is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them")."grace" answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.​

​

Strength/Power:

dýnamis which means strength, ability, power; inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth.​

You want to change "favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards" to "strength, ability, power"? Have at it ... I will not go there with you.

... let's let scripture define its terms ...

Would to God you followed your own advice ...

 

[HatedForNoReason]

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I'm asking for just ONE verse that says in very plain unambiguous words that Christ either DIDN'T die for everyone, or that He ONLY died for some.

Is that too difficult to find?

I've already given you a number of verses that make clear that He DID die for everyone. And you didn't even try to refute any of them.

From that website:
All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

I asked for just ONE unambiguous verse that says that Christ either "didn't die for everyone" or that His death was "only for some".

And...NONE of the verses on that Calvinist website provided ANY unambiguous verses that support limited atonement.


Calvinists wade into false doctrine when they take "total depravity" too far and claim that man cannot respond to the gospel.

TD ONLY means that man is unable to save himself. Responding to the gospel is NOT "saving oneself".

1 Cor 1:21 says "God is pleased...to save those who believe". So those who believe are saved by God, not themselves.


More Calvinist error. Election isn't even about salvation. So I challenge you to find ANY verse that shows that salvation is by election.

While you're at it, consider 1 Cor 1:27,28
27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

In EVERY verse that gives a purpose for election, it is ALWAYS service. Never salvation.


Already refuted.


None of these verses teach IG. In fact, John 6:44 is explained in the next verse, 45. it is those who have "listened and learned" who will come to Christ. Again, response is free. Those who pay attention come to faith.


The biblical doctrine is PRESERVATION of the saints (OSAS) not perseverance. The Bible makes very clear that believers may turn away from the faith. The parable of the soils showed that in soils 2 and 3.

The bible is for God's elects only. Nonelects only suppose to receive the true gospel, nonelects than reject the Holy Spirit and God gives them over to a reprobate mind.

Isaiah 5:20
King James Version

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Proof is not going to save souls, only God can save souls. Also God will only give the Holy Spirit to God's elects.

If God died for everyone, he would have saved everyone. God will never fail.
If you find out you are nonelect, forget everything to do with God and live your life to the fullness. You are only going to enjoy this world for a season.

Read Romans 9, we know for sure Pharaoh is nonelect and God did not die for him.

 

[Yahshua]

Such a large post all to avoid looking hypocritical...It's also a form of Gish Galloping. Still...I think I've given this enough time, much more time than the other members at this point. We're not even discussing the main point of this thread anymore; down rabbit holes, more focused on scoring points than winning me over.

Oh yes, let's not read verses within the context in which they are set ...

I suppose you have completely disregarded the links to Bible websites (blueletterbible.org; bible hub.com; biblestudytools.com) which show that 2 Corinthians 10 through 2 Corinthians 13 are inter-related?

I don't know why you rather not, but suppose away if that helps. Your view is still incorrect regarding the 2 corinthian texts. Paul's thorn didn't relate to an external issue (like persecution from people) but an internal issue he's dealing with within himself. The operative word used is "infirmity" in 12:9, distinguished from the other issues he lists in 12:10.

Paul was not discussing some sin he was involved in as you claim in your Post #783. Paul was telling the believers in Corinth that people who followed after Paul to bring ruin to himself personally or to his ministry were as thorns in his flesh.

Incorrect. The thorn in the flesh was an "infirmity", not people.

2 Corinthians 12:7
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.



...Then he concludes that everything he's been suffering - from persecution to infirmities etc - is for the sake of Christ. Again, it's why the "therefore" is there. It's Paul's conclusion to all that he's said so far.

2 Corinthians 12:10
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

- infirmities
- reproaches
- necessities
- persecutions
- distresses

By the way, note the very last word of the verse. It further confirms what Paul received from God to endure all he's going through. Strength.

According to 1 Cor 9:21, it is clear Paul did not violate the law of God.

(but you choose to ignore context when it comes to your understanding of 2 Cor 12:7 and prefer to believe Paul had some secret sin as you stated in your Post #783)

..........c'mon, friend.

Romans 7:15-20
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

"All have sinned."

Maybe this record from when Jacob and Esau met will help clarify:

Genesis 33:

4 And Esau ran to meet him [Jacob], and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept.

5 And he lifted up his eyes, and saw the women and the children; and said, Who are those with thee? And he said, The children which God hath graciously given thy servant.

The children are not grace ... however, God graciously gave Jacob children.

...Friend...Grace is not Graciousness or Graciously. This is why it's important to let scripture define terms through word usage and textual context as we agreed. The Gift of God should never have been translated as the English word "grace", for the very misunderstanding you're displaying. We project onto it modern meanings that don't apply simply because the English words are similar.

no need for personal insults ... perhaps some of that grace/strength/power might help you curb your need to disparage another believer???

If you think it's a personal insult to call you arrogant you may not be ready for this walk. It's called reproving and rebuking, as we are commanded to do for each other. For the maturing of the saints, so they don't act like children.

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

r-i-g-h-t ... let's just change the meaning of words in Scripture so we can maintain error.

(How is an error "maintained" if the change is "new"? )

Feel free to continue to use your definition of grace. I'd rather rely on the usage of words in Scripture to clarify the meaning of words used in other places in scripture, as you said. It harmonizes the text with regard to the gift we're given only when we believe in Messiah.