FreeGrace2 said:
It means, just as John the baptist (John 1:29) and the Samaritans (Jn 4:42) believed, that Jesus would die for all of humanity, not just some of them. Without the sacrificial death of Christ, NO ONE could be saved. He HAD to pay the sin debt.
If Jesus didn't die for EVERYONE, then Titus 2:11 is a LIE, straight up. Do you believe that?
If your understanding was right, then it WOULD be a LIE. That is my point. So it is you who don't understand it.
I already explained that to you. And I gave a verse that PROVES that it isn't His death that saves (justifies) but His resurrection.
Rom 4:25. Read it.
I don't have it "both ways". You simply don't understand what "removed" refers to. It's the penalty of their sin that is removed. And 2 Cor 5:19 proves that fact.
John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Do you see the potential here, by the "if"? The people that Jesus was talking to "would die in their sins" IF IF IF they "do not believe that I am He".
Very clear. IF they DO believe that Jesus is the I AM, they WILL NOT "die in their sins". But, if they DO NOT believe that Jesus is the I AM, they WILL die in their sins.
That statement from Jesus renders your claims to be in error.
The potential proves that Jesus would die for everyone, not just a select group, as you claim.
Another point you have totally missed is that God can only grant grace to those who have had their sin debt paid.
As I said before, if Christ didn't die for a person, that person CANNOT be saved, no matter that he would believe in Christ.
I agree it is simple; simply WRONG. He died for everyone, which is why both John the baptist and Samaritans understood that He was the Savior of the world.
1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
What's interesting in this verse is that it DOESN'T say ONLY of those who believe, or JUST of those who believe. He is the Savior of ALL people, and then Paul emphasizes those who believe receive the saving.
Go back to john 8:24, which PROVES that IF people believe in Christ, they won't die in their sins, BUT, IF they DO believe in Christ, they WON'T die in their sins.
It is all about potential.
Since Eph 1:4 doesn't say anything about salvation, what verse were you thinking of when you said that?
I've already asked you for a verse that says that election is to salvation. But you haven't done that. Why? Aren't you eager to prove your claim? Then find the verse and quote it, please.
What is amazing is that you have been shown clear verses and yet remain stubbornly opposed to what they say clearly.
Stop. Go to Eph 5:28 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.'
1 Thess 2:10 - You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
These verses show that believers are SUPPOSED to be holy and blameless. It is NOT a reference to getting saved.
As I previously said, you haven't yet shown ANY verse that says election is to salvation.
It means, just as John the baptist (John 1:29) and the Samaritans (Jn 4:42) believed, that Jesus would die for all of humanity, not just some of them. Without the sacrificial death of Christ, NO ONE could be saved. He HAD to pay the sin debt.
If Jesus didn't die for EVERYONE, then Titus 2:11 is a LIE, straight up. Do you believe that?
Titus 2:11 is not a lie, instead your understanding of it is wrong.
If Jesus died for all humanity, then all must be saved because their sin was eliminated and no judgment against them can be levied.
Rom 4:25. Read it.
You can't have it both ways-- either sin has been paid, is gone, or not. What those forgiven do or don't do
has no relevance to salvation once their sin is removed.
has no relevance to salvation once their sin is removed.
John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Do you see the potential here, by the "if"? The people that Jesus was talking to "would die in their sins" IF IF IF they "do not believe that I am He".
Very clear. IF they DO believe that Jesus is the I AM, they WILL NOT "die in their sins". But, if they DO NOT believe that Jesus is the I AM, they WILL die in their sins.
That statement from Jesus renders your claims to be in error.
The potential proves that Jesus would die for everyone, not just a select group, as you claim.
If it does, then it must be that sin still remains. The salvation transaction (so to speak) was entirely between God the Father and Christ, which transaction, Christ successfully satisfied perfectly. Those covered by it, play no part in it, other than for it to be given freely to them with no caveats.
As I said before, if Christ didn't die for a person, that person CANNOT be saved, no matter that he would believe in Christ.
If Christ died for everyone and yet something else in addition to that
is still needed from them, then He died for no one and He cannot be the Savior-- it is a simple proposition
is still needed from them, then He died for no one and He cannot be the Savior-- it is a simple proposition
1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
What's interesting in this verse is that it DOESN'T say ONLY of those who believe, or JUST of those who believe. He is the Savior of ALL people, and then Paul emphasizes those who believe receive the saving.
Go back to john 8:24, which PROVES that IF people believe in Christ, they won't die in their sins, BUT, IF they DO believe in Christ, they WON'T die in their sins.
It is all about potential.
\No, I do not believe that He died for everyone but only for those He whom had chosen to salvation from before the foundation of the world.
I've already asked you for a verse that says that election is to salvation. But you haven't done that. Why? Aren't you eager to prove your claim? Then find the verse and quote it, please.
It amazes me that you and others think differently.
Read the following verses from Ephesians which clearly informs us of that.
[Eph 1:4-6, 11, 18-19 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[Eph 1:4-6, 11, 18-19 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1 Thess 2:10 - You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
These verses show that believers are SUPPOSED to be holy and blameless. It is NOT a reference to getting saved.
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: ...
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: ...
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
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