Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

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Aug 2, 2021
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I see reading comprehension is not your strong suit ;)

If a soul can be saved from death, then it's possible for it so suffer death, else it wouldn't need saving!
Correct and thus rebukes your error since there is death that comes to the physical body and death that comes to the soul of the unredeemed.

Just as the Lord Jesus Christ says: Luke 16

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried.
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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There you go! (y)

Scripture SHOWS that there are souls in heaven, talking no less! Jesus gave an account of 2 men who died and went to Sheol. One to Abraham's bosom and one to Torments. And the guy in Torments talked with Abraham. How is that sleep?
Scripture repeatedly says the soul can die and is mortal.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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If it were only a parable then there was no Abraham's voice. It's just a parable, no literal voice.

I guess you believe in annihilation of the soul? That every one of us is going to live forever somewhere?
The fact that Abraham speaks is proof it's a parable, because David said dead guys go down into "silence".
 
Aug 3, 2019
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For the record, we may disagree on some of these things here about 1 Thess. 4, but I don't believe in an immortal soul. The soul clearly can die or be destroyed according to scripture.
Then, it's should be a very small step for you or anyone to accept that since a Soul exists only as a whole comprised of the components "Breath" and "Body", then at the dissolution of it of these, the Soul must cease to be. So, why does God refer to the first death as "sleep"? Because all must come forth to judgment, with the wicked finally dying a permanent, eternal, everlasting death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Correct and thus rebukes your error since there is death that comes to the physical body and death that comes to the soul of the unredeemed.

Just as the Lord Jesus Christ says: Luke 16

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried.
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And, how does that rebuke what I say? I say death causes the living soul to cease to be as Genesis 2:7 KJV implicitly teaches. If we'd only consider that God only refers to the First Death as "sleep" because He knows soon all who are in the grave sleeping will come forth in resurrection to a Second Life where the wicked will die the Second Death which is permanent, eternal death from which there will be no resurrection - they will for eternity cease to exist.
 

Laura798

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Jun 6, 2020
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“if you call people unnstable for disagreeing with you and disliking you then i guess im guilty as charged.”

I actually asked if you were jokingly lol but yes your Distain for me has been evident for Months that’s why I stopped communicating with you constantly the same trolling and then you inventing things I didn’t say so you can argue d bicker so yes I’d say that’s evident

so why not just move on and bicker with others ? I don’t ever communicate with you , mention you or interact or talk about in any way , until you start the same repetitive straw man arguments and accusations towards me

so let’s be adults and just move on and interact with others maybe not argue with everyone and bicker and best grudges and stuff

this isn’t to argue but I’m just telling you the truth it doesn’t matter to me if you don’t like me that has no impact on me in any way. But it does have a really hard impact on you.

let it go sister , I have a long time ago. I wish you the very best in life , and a better and stronger walk with Jesus but grudge bearing isn’t the way nor is trolling and misrepresenting things I say

God bless let’s have peace now
I know very well you werent joking - you meant it as a dig.” You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.”
and how could you stop interacting with me since I dropped off the last forum you were on weeks ago— that makes no sense.

Standing on a doctrinal position is NOT trolling. You put me down and make up lies to present yourself in a good light. But I see thru your unkindness, your arrogance, and your duplicity. If you truly didnt care, you would’ve dropped the matter, but you had to have the last word. You do know slander is a sin right? I do no further interaction with you.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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No dead people come with Jesus- The dead are raised when Jesus comes, those that sleep in Jesus will be brought to life when Jesus comes.
Rev 6 and the 5th seal proves that the souls of saints that have died are shouting in heaven. Try that when sleeping.

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

All the bolded words relate to the souls of believers who have martyred. They sure ain't sleeping.

Do you understand the difference between literal and figurative? Let's see.

John 11-
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,

Jesus used "sleep" figuratively for Lazarus' physical death.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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So Jesus only partly died for my sin..?

If you understand the soul you will understand that flesh is part of the soul.
Read Genesis 2:7 as many times as it takes to comprehend. When God breathed the soul into the flesh, Adam became a living being.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Nothing about flames? Hmm?🤔
My bad.

What is the place of Torments you are referring to?
Where all souls of unbelievers go until "raised" for the GWT judgment.

The parable clearly uses the word as a verb not a noun as you did here. the parable says the rich man is in Hades.
OK, Hades is the Greek, and Sheol is Hebrew. Same place. Where ALL souls go after physical death. It has compartments; at least 3.

Abraham's bosom, or Paradise, Torments, and Tartarus for certain fallen angels.

Here is an article explaining the meaning of the parable. Note how Jesus ties all the you are referring toparablthem all 5 parables together with the words and / or. Also the preceding parable starts the same way “A certain man” as many of His parables do.
https://therealgospelofchrist.com/the-parable-of-the-rich-man-and-lazarus
Why do you have such a resistance to the account being literal about where souls of dead people go?

Only those who have bought the "soul sleep" idea would want to resist it.

It isn't even close to a parable.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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And, how does that rebuke what I say? I say death causes the living soul to cease to be as Genesis 2:7 KJV implicitly teaches. If we'd only consider that God only refers to the First Death as "sleep" because He knows soon all who are in the grave sleeping will come forth in resurrection to a Second Life where the wicked will die the Second Death which is permanent, eternal death from which there will be no resurrection - they will for eternity cease to exist.
Follow the Truth = Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die."

Jesus is asking you, Phoneman - "Do you believe this?”
 
Jan 31, 2021
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It's a parable, as evidenced by all the things happening in it that the rest of the Bible says is impossible.
It's not only all possible, it's all a fact.

Souls do not sleep. Rev 6 and the 5th seal has martyred souls in heaven shouting for revenge, and given robes and told to wait.

Doesn't sound like a slumber party to me.

I don't agree with your take on Paul's comment about being absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2 Cor 5:6,8
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

From the interlinear:

v.8 We are confident now and are pleased rather to be absent out of the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Sure sounds like one or the other.

v.6 says believers who are alive on earth (at home in the body) are absent from the Lord.

So it is an either/or situation. We are either alive in our physical bodies, or we are absent from our bodies and at home with the Lord.

So, this passage, and Luke 16 literal account and Rev 6 and the 5th seal, the idea of soul sleep is refuted.

When sleep is used for physical death, it is figurative. The soul is at home with the Lord, which is proved by Rev 6.

Oh, btw, when Jesus told one of the thiefs on the cross that he would be WITH Jesus in Paradise on THAT DAY, was Jesus inviting him to a slumber party or something? Of course not.

The evidence is clear. The only thing that could be said to be sleeping after a believer dies is his/her physical body. Waiting to be resurrected when King Jesus comes back. And we see this in Rev 20:5.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The fact that Abraham speaks is proof it's a parable, because David said dead guys go down into "silence".
Why couldn't David simply be describing the obvious fact that dead people no longer speak? We sure don't hear mumblings in graves, right?

These things are not difficult to understand. Just need a bit more light in. Stop squinting.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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I know very well you werent joking - you meant it as a dig.” You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.”
and how could you stop interacting with me since I dropped off the last forum you were on weeks ago— that makes no sense.

Standing on a doctrinal position is NOT trolling. You put me down and make up lies to present yourself in a good light. But I see thru your unkindness, your arrogance, and your duplicity. If you truly didnt care, you would’ve dropped the matter, but you had to have the last word. You do know slander is a sin right? I do no further interaction with you.
well You seem to know a lot of delusional things about me. Let’s see what transpired

Phenomenal said

Every "immoral soul" believer has all their life believed that at death, the body goes into the grave and the disembodied "soul" either enters heaven or goes burning in hell without a body...until a guy like me comes along and throws a monkey wrench into their theology, leaving them scrambling for ideas on how the Rich Man and Lazarus can have resurrection bodies before the resurrection even takes place.

Jesus contradicted Scripture by depicting the Rich Man and Lazarus "raised with a spiritual body" before the resurrection at the end of time when Scripture says the dead will be raised with spiritual bodies.”

I responded to his quote

“lol you certainly think a lot of yourself but no I don’t see any monkey wrench you’ve thrown

Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying so you think he did but it’s never going to be that Jesus said the wrong thing it’s always going to be we don’t quite get what he’s saying and we are interpreting things other than how he made it clear “

then lol here comes the instability and wuote frankly delusions

Wow. Just wow you said to phoneman
Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying”

Both you and david tree are always equating Jesus words with YOUR own words. You two are beyond arrogant .
Neither of you can hold a candle to his arguments.
its like comparing Mt Killamanjato to an ant hill . He consistently blows you all out of the water. And that includes my arguments— and I am in complete agreement with “

so you and he are saying Jesus condtradicted his own word but you both have it all figured out and suddenly I’m the one who’s false lol yeah agreeing with and understanding Jesus is always right and when we insist he’s contradicting himself it’s we who would be wrong I like how this demonstrates exactly what I meant by unstable

Here your next response after I showed you the conversation which of course you avoided to keep your silly grudge going

News alert— you are not i repeat NOT Jesus— stop equating your false doctrine to be synonymous with his.

( complete invention and delusion I’ve never claimed to be Jesus , a prophet , a teacher , a wise man ect that’s all that dislike you have for me telling you that stuff delusions


Grudge? I have no more grudge against you than Jesus had against the Pharisees or Paul had against the false teachers.

( again I’m false because I responded that Jesus doesn’t contradict himself but the delusion says I’m ten false one what I’d say is the persons agreeing Jesus contradicts scripture are always wrong and false

Am i angered by both your false doctrine and your arrogance in thinking you have the corner on the truth-YES!🔥

and yes again your heart dull
Of dislike of quite evident your wuote angered a lot I’ve noticed with many people but I think it’s more about what’s in you not that everyone else is false

sort of the instability point I was joking about

but feel free to continue on with your rants I’ll just ignore you like I have for months your a source of constant carbal
Arguing towards me and it’s really sort of useless in my own life

so again I hope you find some peace in your heart but beginning with the idea that Jesus contradicts scripture isn’t the path to that place
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Follow the Truth = Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die."

Jesus is asking you, Phoneman - "Do you believe this?”
apparently Jesus contradicts his own word 😅 in super happy fantasy hour That is
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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So Jesus only partly died for my sin..?

If you understand the soul you will understand that flesh is part of the soul.

did Jesus cease to exist?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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did Jesus cease to exist?
amen he walked away perfectly alive and well even as far back as Samuel he don’t cease to exist either he was sleeping and awoken by a spiritist

“And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.”
‭‭1 Samuel‬ ‭28:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Seems like he’s alive but his body was long dead
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Quite a bit of humor along with a lot of unsound/unbiblical statements on this 'soul sleep'
lol yes quite bizarre some of the things we can read here not really funny honestly I shouldn’t joke about Jesus word but I’m glad you understood the joke brother God bless keep and prosper you immensely