Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
- Thread starter Phoneman-777
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dearest 1ofthem--find the Annihilationist forum--the numerous literal verses that say "the wages for sin is DEATH", "will not PERISH", "the wicked will be DESTROYED vastly outnumber the few figurative verses that have been twisted to fit the pagan narrative of a place of eternal torment, which the Protestants got from the Roman Catholic Church--who got it from the pagans. If a fire never goes out and a worm doesn't die then the thing it is consuming will be completely and utterly obliterated. Note to this verse says the worm and fire are feeding on CO This verse is clearly using figurative language. Also, and blasphemously, that would mean that Christ's death was not the penalty for sin and that He himself is or will be in eternal conscious torment, if that is the punishment for sin and not as Romans 6:23 says plainly is DEATH.
'Eternal Conscious Torment' running from a swarm of Annihilation bible verses.
'Eternal Conscious Torment' running from a swarm of Annihilation bible verses.
Of course not. And that is my point. So, "no horrible conclusion" means NO CONSEQUENCE. Nonsense.
Just a maudlin sentiment.
You are free to your own opinions, but none of this has come from me. So you can stop MAKING STUFF UP.
Can't you stick with just facts? Why all the fantasy?
Unbelievers will be uncomfortable in Torments, awaiting their judgment at the GWT. Then they will exist for ever and ever (Rev 20:10) in either a more bearable or less bearable condition for eternity.
Maybe you never read Matthew all the way through.
This is what Jesus taught about the lake of fire.
Matt 10:15 - Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
Matt 11:22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
I expect you'll make up something to fit your opinions, but Jesus was clear. Those being cast into the lake of fire will have a "more bearable" or "less bearable" experience than others.
Right. Heaven. And then eternity beyond the Millennium.
However, your soul sleep and annihilation theories removes any need for a Savior. Those who live like hell will have no conequences.
What a deal.
Just a maudlin sentiment.
You are free to your own opinions, but none of this has come from me. So you can stop MAKING STUFF UP.
Can't you stick with just facts? Why all the fantasy?
Unbelievers will be uncomfortable in Torments, awaiting their judgment at the GWT. Then they will exist for ever and ever (Rev 20:10) in either a more bearable or less bearable condition for eternity.
Maybe you never read Matthew all the way through.
This is what Jesus taught about the lake of fire.
Matt 10:15 - Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
Matt 11:22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
I expect you'll make up something to fit your opinions, but Jesus was clear. Those being cast into the lake of fire will have a "more bearable" or "less bearable" experience than others.
Right. Heaven. And then eternity beyond the Millennium.
However, your soul sleep and annihilation theories removes any need for a Savior. Those who live like hell will have no conequences.
What a deal.
FreeGrace2 said:
Oh, what a softie. But go tell God how unfair He is then.
Why don't you realize that IF the 2 theories were correct (soul sleep and annihilation) then there is NO need of a Savior. Unbelievers can live like hell and face NO CONSEQUENCES whatsoever.
What an silly idea.
It seems you really don't get this, do you?
So what? Physical death means soul sleep to you. What do you experience in sleep? Nothing.
The second death (lake of fire) means ceasing to exist. Wht do you experience when you cease to exist? Nothing.
So again, your theories mean NO CONSEQUENCES for those who live like hell, or even the moral atheists who don't.
So again, explain how being "saved from sin and death" means anything since those who are UNsaved won't face any consequences?
What?? How does a $100 payment for work and some Snicker's bars relate to your ridiculous theories that lead to NO CONSEQUENCES for any kind of behavior?
Your view of Scripture is so clueless, there is realy no point in hoping for a reasonable/rational discussion.
You just really don't get it. At all.
Oh, what a softie. But go tell God how unfair He is then.
Why don't you realize that IF the 2 theories were correct (soul sleep and annihilation) then there is NO need of a Savior. Unbelievers can live like hell and face NO CONSEQUENCES whatsoever.
What an silly idea.
It seems you really don't get this, do you?
So what? Physical death means soul sleep to you. What do you experience in sleep? Nothing.
The second death (lake of fire) means ceasing to exist. Wht do you experience when you cease to exist? Nothing.
So again, your theories mean NO CONSEQUENCES for those who live like hell, or even the moral atheists who don't.
So again, explain how being "saved from sin and death" means anything since those who are UNsaved won't face any consequences?
What?? How does a $100 payment for work and some Snicker's bars relate to your ridiculous theories that lead to NO CONSEQUENCES for any kind of behavior?
Your view of Scripture is so clueless, there is realy no point in hoping for a reasonable/rational discussion.
You just really don't get it. At all.
I believe you were the one FG2 that were calling our clearly articulated arguments with their supporting bible verses 'opinion'---exactly what you're doing here. What do you mean no consequences--would you think it was of no consequence if I offered you a billion dollar lotto ticket which you refused to take? Are you saying missing out on living in Paradise with our Heavenly Father and King for all eternity is of no consequence? Really?
And you don't believe Romans 6:23 or John 3:16--that the wages for sin is DEATH. That the opposite of the gift of eternal life is to PERISH? Or the plethora of literal verses that say plainly the wicked will be DESTROYED?
And worst of all you it would mean you DON"T believe that Christ paid the penalty for sin by His death on the cross. You do understand if you truly believe eternal conscious torment is the punishment--even though scripture says there will be NO MORE SORROW--you are saying then Christ Himself is or will be suffering eternal conscious torment.
And you don't believe Romans 6:23 or John 3:16--that the wages for sin is DEATH. That the opposite of the gift of eternal life is to PERISH? Or the plethora of literal verses that say plainly the wicked will be DESTROYED?
And worst of all you it would mean you DON"T believe that Christ paid the penalty for sin by His death on the cross. You do understand if you truly believe eternal conscious torment is the punishment--even though scripture says there will be NO MORE SORROW--you are saying then Christ Himself is or will be suffering eternal conscious torment.
Then, it's the Universalists with which you have a prob - they teach in the end, everyone gets to heaven.
However:
If the Soul that sinneth shall died (Ezekiel 18:4 KJV),
and if the wicked do not possess immortality (2 Timothy 6:15-16 KJV),
and if the wicked are not granted immortality or eternal life (Romans 2:7-9 KJV)
and if no murderer hath eternal life (1 John 3:15 KJV)
....how can he have eternal suffering?
There can't be a never-ending hell if there's no never-ending sinner.
However:
If the Soul that sinneth shall died (Ezekiel 18:4 KJV),
and if the wicked do not possess immortality (2 Timothy 6:15-16 KJV),
and if the wicked are not granted immortality or eternal life (Romans 2:7-9 KJV)
and if no murderer hath eternal life (1 John 3:15 KJV)
....how can he have eternal suffering?
There can't be a never-ending hell if there's no never-ending sinner.
-
1
- Show all
And here you go again calling our well supported arguments 'opinions'-- but it is you who speak from your opinions not us; furthermore, you are using ALL figurative verses.
“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. "--John 16:25
You said, "I expect you'll make up something to fit your opinions, but Jesus was clear. Those being cast into the lake of fire will have a "more bearable" or "less bearable" experience than others. " --Really? Where did Jesus say that?
You said, "Unbelievers will be uncomfortable in Torments, awaiting their judgment at the GWT. Then they will exist for ever and ever (Rev 20:10) in either a more bearable or less bearable condition for eternity.--Really? Where does scripture say this?
What happened to the wicked in Sodom and Gomorrah by the way? They were completely and utterly DESTROYED. Even to this day no town or cities have been built in that region--and they still find sulfur balls there.
I also do not believe in 'eternal pain and sufferings' for those who don't love God. I believe they 'perish' or are blotted out of the book of life, or are indeed, like the fat that drops off the animal as they are cooking over an open fire and the liquid fat hits the coals and instantly is consumed and you see the puff of smoke rise and dissipate forever and ever.
Yes, they suffer first and we are recompensed for our part in it, but they perish as we live on.
GOD tells us that even NOW, the evil though necessary, causes Him to suffer. That tells us there would be no reason to have them around.
Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Eternal life in an immortal body DWELLING with God. Just think of all those who only want to take advantage of you gone. Those around you are kind and loving and helpful and trustworthy and not liars and it is peaceful and joyful and we all eat from a different tree each month so that happy and content we stay. It is heaven.
He for sure tells us here that it is GONE. I thank God because with even the worst that has ever been done to me, more than a few minutes (and that might actually be seconds) is more than I can stand. Gone is good.
Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
NO DEATH, no more lake of fire. Do you remember what happen when 'How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Remember the destruction that took place? Do you remember who was there and what happened to them?
Neither do I.
Isaiah 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
Has the whole earth ever been at rest? Not yet.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.
Yes, they suffer first and we are recompensed for our part in it, but they perish as we live on.
GOD tells us that even NOW, the evil though necessary, causes Him to suffer. That tells us there would be no reason to have them around.
Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Eternal life in an immortal body DWELLING with God. Just think of all those who only want to take advantage of you gone. Those around you are kind and loving and helpful and trustworthy and not liars and it is peaceful and joyful and we all eat from a different tree each month so that happy and content we stay. It is heaven.
He for sure tells us here that it is GONE. I thank God because with even the worst that has ever been done to me, more than a few minutes (and that might actually be seconds) is more than I can stand. Gone is good.
Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
NO DEATH, no more lake of fire. Do you remember what happen when 'How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Remember the destruction that took place? Do you remember who was there and what happened to them?
Neither do I.
Isaiah 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
Has the whole earth ever been at rest? Not yet.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.
I've actually considered all the verses folks have given in the past and so far for annihilation. Yet never could come to that conclusion. There is too much scripture to refute it. Also, commonsense refutes it. If the punishment is just ceasing to exist. There is no actual punishment. Many folks (atheists, etc,) will get what they want.
Jesus spent so much time warning of eternal damnation/ punishment...so seems it's pretty serious to me. Not just a rest for the ungodly...they will be tormented night and day for ever.
Anyways like I said, I have tried to consider it in the past.
Went through a big, long discussion on it here before in the past. I found nothing that changed my opinion on it, but if I can find it. I'll repost some of it and give you guys a chance to try to refute it with scripture.
I have no idea how you could come to this conclusion. Seriously this makes no sense at all.
The wages of sin is death (separation from God) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The first death was spiritual. Adam didn't die physically the moment he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
But...God didn't lie...Adam did die in the same moment he sinned. He died a spiritual death. He was separated from God.
Jesus came to pay the price for sin and the curse (spiritual death) if we except it...If not the second spiritual death (separation from God) is going to be eternal.
No matter how much thought and study I have put into it so far...That has been my conclusion.
But like I said, I am willing to listen. And might try to find my other posts on it...to post here and see if you guys can refute it.
God knows I don't want to be in error on something as important as this...since Jesus spent more time teaching on and warning about Hell/eternal punishment than he spent talking about Heaven.
Jesus spent so much time warning of eternal damnation/ punishment...so seems it's pretty serious to me. Not just a rest for the ungodly...they will be tormented night and day for ever.
Anyways like I said, I have tried to consider it in the past.
Went through a big, long discussion on it here before in the past. I found nothing that changed my opinion on it, but if I can find it. I'll repost some of it and give you guys a chance to try to refute it with scripture.
I have no idea how you could come to this conclusion. Seriously this makes no sense at all.
The wages of sin is death (separation from God) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The first death was spiritual. Adam didn't die physically the moment he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
But...God didn't lie...Adam did die in the same moment he sinned. He died a spiritual death. He was separated from God.
Jesus came to pay the price for sin and the curse (spiritual death) if we except it...If not the second spiritual death (separation from God) is going to be eternal.
No matter how much thought and study I have put into it so far...That has been my conclusion.
But like I said, I am willing to listen. And might try to find my other posts on it...to post here and see if you guys can refute it.
God knows I don't want to be in error on something as important as this...since Jesus spent more time teaching on and warning about Hell/eternal punishment than he spent talking about Heaven.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Good to See Christ explain the process of how those who are not of His will be severed from the Saved and cast into a Furnace (Lake of Fire) of Fire, that SOME claim does not exist in the Book of Revelation.
What is the purpose for 'figures of speech'? They are used for the purpose of GIVING more force to the subject, they intensify what is being spoken of, giving it more meaning with less words. The picture is worth a 1000 words is basically what symbolic language is about. Never to make less, always more true to the truth. The meaning is not weakened by the figures used, but strengthened. SO EVERY TIME we see a 'figure' used, we to add emphasis to the statement, find the 'deeper' meaning. THAT is why it is used.
Language rules are good to know so we know when the rules have been sidelined in order to bring attention and emphasis to something.
Language rules are good to know so we know when the rules have been sidelined in order to bring attention and emphasis to something.
"If you seek, you shall find."
My suggestion is to pray and ask God to take the doctrinal lens of what you've been taught (doubly bad when taught a a child which I was)--all the scriptural support for ECT are figurative, whereas all those that support DEATH are literal. So are you saying you don't believe either Romans 6:23 or John 3:16 or the other verses that say the wicked will be 'as if they never were', ' will leave neither root nor branch', 'ashes under our feet', like Sodom and Gommorah', etc, etc?
The final wrath of God at the Judgment is called Eternal PunishMENT, Eternal DestrucTION--this means it is completed/ finished, not ongoing. To trust in the few figurative verses when their is a mountain of literal verses that say otherwise just doesn't make sense..
We have all been indoctrinated to some extent if we have been a part of any denomination--so manychurches, beginning with the Roman Catholic Church used the fear of ECT to control the masses--and who is in control of the RCC and so many other churches? Satan himself. To say God is just, but then to believe He would torture people for all eternity is to make Him equal with the Father of Lies Himself. Recall the Pharisees said Jesus had a demon? This is exactly what the ECT doctrine is saying. How is it justice to torture all the wicked and unbelievers for ALL ETERNITY when God clearly said "There will be no more sorrow, no more tears--behold! I make ALL things NEW!"
My suggestion is to pray and ask God to take the doctrinal lens of what you've been taught (doubly bad when taught a a child which I was)--all the scriptural support for ECT are figurative, whereas all those that support DEATH are literal. So are you saying you don't believe either Romans 6:23 or John 3:16 or the other verses that say the wicked will be 'as if they never were', ' will leave neither root nor branch', 'ashes under our feet', like Sodom and Gommorah', etc, etc?
The final wrath of God at the Judgment is called Eternal PunishMENT, Eternal DestrucTION--this means it is completed/ finished, not ongoing. To trust in the few figurative verses when their is a mountain of literal verses that say otherwise just doesn't make sense..
We have all been indoctrinated to some extent if we have been a part of any denomination--so manychurches, beginning with the Roman Catholic Church used the fear of ECT to control the masses--and who is in control of the RCC and so many other churches? Satan himself. To say God is just, but then to believe He would torture people for all eternity is to make Him equal with the Father of Lies Himself. Recall the Pharisees said Jesus had a demon? This is exactly what the ECT doctrine is saying. How is it justice to torture all the wicked and unbelievers for ALL ETERNITY when God clearly said "There will be no more sorrow, no more tears--behold! I make ALL things NEW!"
-
1
- Show all
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the CORPSES of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." "--Isaiah 66:24
A maggot feeds on death and decay--not a spirit. A maggot that does not die and a fire that is not quenched means that the thing it feds on is OBLITERATED. Clearly this is using FIGURATIVE Language--as maggots are not given immortality, neither is fire--both eventually die out.
CORPSES: Dead bodies.
A maggot feeds on death and decay--not a spirit. A maggot that does not die and a fire that is not quenched means that the thing it feds on is OBLITERATED. Clearly this is using FIGURATIVE Language--as maggots are not given immortality, neither is fire--both eventually die out.
CORPSES: Dead bodies.
@Phoneman-777
I was going to reply to your Solomon quote...but can't find it now right off and don't feel like looking for it again.
Anyhow, Solomon was said to be the wisest on earth. Could that just be carnal knowledge?
How wise was he spiritually?
When he spoke of death was, he speaking of earthly physical death on this earth, or was he speaking about beyond the grave?
This will sound awful, but I'm not sure Solomon was even saved when he died. The book just ends with him committing idolatry and doesn't mention him repenting...so really Idk...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not refuting the scriptures. It just sounds to me like Solomon was just speaking of the physical/earthly death of the body.
I was going to reply to your Solomon quote...but can't find it now right off and don't feel like looking for it again.
Anyhow, Solomon was said to be the wisest on earth. Could that just be carnal knowledge?
How wise was he spiritually?
When he spoke of death was, he speaking of earthly physical death on this earth, or was he speaking about beyond the grave?
This will sound awful, but I'm not sure Solomon was even saved when he died. The book just ends with him committing idolatry and doesn't mention him repenting...so really Idk...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not refuting the scriptures. It just sounds to me like Solomon was just speaking of the physical/earthly death of the body.
Then why are we not to fear
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them WHICH KILL THE BODY, BUT ARE NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Yes, man can kill THIS BODY, but MAN CAN'T TOUCH THE SOUL/SPIRIT/SPIRIT BODY.
KILLING THIS BODY DOESN'T KILL US.
WHY NOT? BECAUSE WE HAVE 2 BODIES.
The dust of the earth BODY (THE ONE FOUND IN GEN 2:7) is not OUR ONLY BODY.
1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
THAT DUSTY EARTH BODY DIES SO THAT THE BODY THE NEXT BODY CAN TAKE OVER. Will they all be the same? NO, some will be vessels of Gold and some will be vessels of wood. 'a CHANCE OF WHEAT or some other grain' AND EVERY SEED HIS OWN BODY. THERE is a world seen and a world unseen. Spiritual eyes are required for the second.
1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Who would dare to say that a seed has NOT BEEN GIVEN HIS OWN BODY? NOT ME.
1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
WHEN would be the BEST TIME TO BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY? WHEN ON THE WAY TO HEAVEN
-
1
- Show all