One taken,one left. The rapture.

Diakonos · Mar 8, 2022

Understandable.
I would suggest starting with the rapture events that have already happened in the Bible and then studying the ones that haven't happened yet.

I have identified 7 such events in the Bible in the sense of bodily departure from one place to another
(Enoch, Elijah, the Apostles, Jesus, Phillip, the Church, and the two witnesses).

Some of them are mentioned in one of my previous posts here:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ens-at-the-rapture.203234/page-4#post-4737305

Furthermore, here is a screenshot of my personal notes on my computer.

These are merely the key verse for each event without their exhaustive cross-references.
Hope this helps.

Diakonos · Mar 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Well, I'll explain again. At the resurrection, all the dead saints will be resurrected with glorified bodies. But, since the living believers can't be resurrected in the sense of being raised to life again, they will simply be changed.

iow, their mortal bodies will take on immortality. That means they will get their glorified bodies too.

1 Cor 15-
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

This is what Paul meant in v.52 about being "changed in the twinkling of an eye".

So, at the resurrection of all believers, every believer receives an immortal body, or as Peter said, an imperishable one.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Notice how we have been born again; with imperishable seed. We will actually receive an imperishable body at the resurrection.

Right, exactly.
"[He] will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His glorious body" (Phil 3:21).

It seemed like you were denying the transformation that takes place at the rapture. I must have misread your post.

Runningman · Mar 8, 2022

Diakonos said:

Understandable.
I would suggest starting with the rapture events that have already happened in the Bible and then studying the ones that haven't happened yet.

I have identified 7 such events in the Bible in the sense of bodily departure from one place to another
(Enoch, Elijah, the Apostles, Jesus, Phillip, the Church, and the two witnesses).

Some of them are mentioned in one of my previous posts here:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ens-at-the-rapture.203234/page-4#post-4737305

Furthermore, here is a screenshot of my personal notes on my computer.
View attachment 237439
These are merely the key verse for each event without their exhaustive cross-references.
Hope this helps.

Did you get the one about the person who was “caught up” into the third heaven?

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 8, 2022

DavidTree said:

I have a few thoughts regarding this verse, but let me start with this much:

--there's only one other place where the phrase "the mystery of God" is used, and that's in Col2:2-3, which says,

"that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and to all the riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge [epignosin - FULL-knowledge] of the mystery of God, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge [gnōseōs].";

So, how would you say "the mystery of God [/Christ]" would be considered "finished" (in the sense you seem to be alluding to), and what is this text referring to (in your view) where it says, "that there should be delay no longer"... "delay" FOR WHAT (in your view)? In MY view, this is a reference to a specific point in time within the "7" Trib yrs (commonly-so-called) [not at the END of it, in its entirety], which is at the point in time of what is also known as "the feast of revelation"... (so this is a matter of "chronology" and specific calendar "dates")...

...The seven VIALS must ALSO take place from that point, also WITHIN the "7" Trib years, before Christ Himself will "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19; and we WITH Him) when the "MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" occurs (2Th2:8b) and "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him (not just those participating in the "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" v.1 speaks of [that is, "IN THE AIR" at the time of "our Rapture / SNATCH / caught UP" thing [and "G4862 - 'UNIONed-with' Him" thing], which pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]);

That's all I want to go into at this time... it is sufficient to at least CONSIDER = )

FreeGrace2 · Mar 8, 2022

Diakonos said:

No problem. There's a bunch of posters and it's easy to get distracted and who's who.

I have ceased using the word "rapture" because all pretribbers assume a trip to heaven in glorified bodies, which isn't mentioned anywhere in Scripture. There's not a trip to heaven at the resurrection that will occur after the Tribulation.

I refer to glorified bodies and resurrection.

RichMan · Mar 8, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

So the angles are not servants of God doing God's biding?
Don't you see how ridiculous that belief is?
This is the problem with so many people.
They twist the Scripture to make it support their belief instead of just believing what it says.
So what LAST trump of God was Paul speaking about seeing you believe there must be several LAST trumps of God.

SomeDisciple · Mar 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

I appreciate the symbolism. Noah's flood was water. Clouds are water. Jesus went to heaven. You could make say that since the floodwaters exceeded the highest mountains that Noah actually was lifted into the heavens (the first heaven).

I have oftentimes been in favor of post-trib rapture, just because I don't like the attitudes of a lot of pre-tribbers. The "LOL, you think god would let his church face TRIBULATION! LOL!" attitude. A small part of me hopes that they have to go through the GT just for that... but maybe that's not very nice... and it's certainly not a scriptural reason for believing in post-trib.

I have to admit... there is an obvious pattern of God taking his people out of somewhere, before he unloads his wrath on that place.... but even then Wrath =/= tribulation.

I guess I am at least pre-wrath rapture. Is that a thing?

GRACE_ambassador · Mar 8, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

Precious friend, sorry to hear about the attitudes of others toward you. You
probably believe as I, that we should "love thy neighbor as thyself," Correct?
Just sharing my view, according To The Scriptures - be Encouraged/Comforted!:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army, * “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

to be continued...

GRACE_ambassador · Mar 8, 2022

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:

Part II

God's Prophetic Program, and second earthly coming

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of Eternal Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Enlightened, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑

FreeGrace2 · Mar 8, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

I have oftentimes been in favor of post-trib rapture, just because I don't like the attitudes of a lot of pre-tribbers. The "LOL, you think god would let his church face TRIBULATION! LOL!" attitude. A small part of me hopes that they have to go through the GT just for that... but maybe that's not very nice... and it's certainly not a scriptural reason for believing in post-trib.

I have to admit... there is an obvious pattern of God taking his people out of somewhere, before he unloads his wrath on that place.... but even then Wrath =/= tribulation.[/QUOTE]
However, when God poured His judgment on Egypt, He didn't move the Jews anywhere. They stayed in Egypt, in Goshen. God simply protected them when the 10 plagues went through Egypt.

I am interested in the fact that there are some similarites between the 10 plagues and the wrath during the Tribulation. Also, pretribbers like to use Rev 3:10 as their evidence for being removed from the earth before God lets loos His wrath. However, that verse only applies to the faithful who will be "kept from the hour of trial that is coming on the earth". I can't help but think of the Jews in Egypt who were also kept from the hour of trial that came on Egypt.

For me, I need to see a verse or several that would describe such an event. It's only a thing if the Bible describes such an event (thing).

Instead, what I have found is that the Bible teaches there is just one resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.
- Matt 22:30
-Luke 14:14
-Acts 24:15
-1 Cor 15:23

All of these verses speak of resurrection in the singular. A pretrib rapture would require at least 2 resurrections.

Rev 20:4,5 very clearly show that the FIRST resurrection, which is the resurrection of the saved, includes the Tribulation martyrs, and they don't go to heaven when they are resurrected. They stay on earth and "reign with Christ", a privilege or reward for faithfulness, per 2 Tim 2:12 and Rom 8:17b.

In addition, 2 Thess 2:1 very clearly shows that the Second Advent and "gathering" occur together, which is after the Tribulation.

So I'm a posttribber solely on the basis of what the Bible has plainly stated.

And I've given up using the word "rapture" since there won't be any trip to heaven of glorified believers.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 8, 2022

Absolutely said:

No, not what I said (and not what Scripture itself says in the Revelation text).

CONTEXT matters.

I showed you where the word is also used in Matthew 22:10, "and the wedding hall [G1062] was filled with guests [plural; G345 - 'those reclining']" (<--those are the ones [plural] who will have been "having been INVITED" [v.9 of Rev19] all during the TRIB YEARS [on the earth], distinct from "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" of v.7 pertaining to "the MARRIAGE" itself, which will have already taken place by that point).

What you are now suggesting is that the "guests [plural]" will have all (both "good and bad" Matt22:10) been "caught up / snatched / raptured [IN THE AIR]," and that the one "guest" who was found not wearing "a garment of wedding" will be "cast out" OF HEAVEN (as though he had been "caught up" with US), which is a lame notion, not a biblical one.

[again, all "there shall be weeping/wailing and gnashing of teeth" passages refer to the SAME point in time, when Christ will "RETURN" to the earth to set up the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom... and these [LOST / UNSAVED] persons will be "cast out" and not "BLESSED" to be present in and for the earthly MK age (aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER")--In Rev19:9, only the "HAVING BEEN INVITED TO" has been completed (at that point), not the "feast / supper" ITSELF, where Jesus [WITH His "BRIDE / WIFE [SINGULAR]"] will be HEADING DOWN TO, and where the "guests [plural]" and "Virgins [plural]" will STILL BE LOCATED<--they've not been promised "rapture / SNATCH / caught up [IN THE AIR]" which pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... not to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods]

DavidTree · Mar 8, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

We have been told, in Scripture what the "mystery of God" actually IS.
We have not been told the Day or Hour or exactly how HE will complete it.

Peace and Joy in the One who created us for this Mystery

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

DavidTree · Mar 8, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

CORRECT = Scripture is 100% Pre-Wrath for His Elect

There does not exist one Scripture from Genesis to Revelation for a Pre-Trib exit from earth to heaven = not one.

The Scripture actually condemns pre-trib teaching from the Beginning in Genesis.

Carry_Your_Name · Mar 8, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

That depends on how you define "rapture". In the last days, God will provide supernatural protection for His people. There was the Ark for Noah, Zoar for Lot, Goshen and the Red Sea parting for Moses, and the "earth" for the Woman, which is also Israel. Whatever or wherever that "Earth" is, it ain't heaven. Think about it, after the Great Tribulation we're gonna inherit the earth as co-heirs with Christ, and that kingdom is on Earth. Jesus began and ended the Beatitudes with this particular blessing - those are poor in spirit and those who are persecuted for righteousness's sake will inherit the kingdom. If we're "raptured" into heaven, how are we gonna reign with Christ in the millenial kingdom here on Earth?

arthurfleminger · Mar 8, 2022

The BIG QUESTION is, "How can so many 'bible/scripture professing Christians read Scripture about the doctrine of the so called 'Rapture' and interpret it in so many different ways? Some just have to be egregiously wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

arthurfleminger · Mar 8, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

So, many have one view point on the so called Rapture and many others have other viewpoints. All viewpoints are not true, simple as that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, what about all those who issue their false teachings on the Rapture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carry_Your_Name · Mar 8, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

They watched the Left Behind movies and listened to the "Capture the Rapture" radio shows instead of reading the bible.

arthurfleminger · Mar 8, 2022

Carry_Your_Name said:

I loved Billy Graham. but your post doesn't answer my question. With so many differing opinions on the Rapture, there have to be many false teachings on this board.

Carry_Your_Name · Mar 8, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

I've already told you, they're not really "'bible/scripture professing". From their dispensationalist view, only the "Pauline doctrine" in epistles from Paul are written to the Gentiles, while all the gospels are for the Jews. When it comes to Revelation, from chapter 4 to 19 are totally irrelevant because the church will be "raptured".

So here's how it goes: Instead of a quarter of the global population perishing as the the Pale Horse is released by the opening of the fourth seal, the disappearing of billions of people will trigger all kinds of global chaos, and then the Antichrist will rise from this chaos, and the Israelites will worship him as their Messiah. In three and a half years, he signs a peace treaty with Israel, subdues the Palestinians, grants them all the Land of Canaan, helps them build the Third Temple; but after that, he declares himself as god, banishing all the Jews out of Israel and marking everyone with a microchip. Jews flee to the "earth", a sanctuary reserved for them by God, and for the next three and half years they're being protected from God's wrath poured upon the Antichrist and his marked worshippers; then at the end, Christ returns on a white horse with His church on Mount Olive, an epic battle fought in Armageddon, Antichrist's army defeated, millennial kingdom established, the Church consummates the marriage with Christ and they happily ever after, the end. Tell me does this sound like a movie script from Hollywood or bible prophecy from God.

kleronomos · Mar 8, 2022

Absolutely said:

PSSSSSSST no one goes to heaven or rises up WITHOUT A BODY no matter how many people will tell you they believe it and we know this because

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

PRE TRIB APOSTASY HAS NO IDEA WHAT POST TRIBS BELIEVE EVEN WHEN THEY SAY THEY DO.

SO TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR

WE BELIEVE ALL THE SAINTS ARE a part of the wedding supper.

BUT WE definitely DON'T believe it takes place ANYWHERE NEAR when, where, how, or even WITH WHOM as THE APOSTASY DOES.

ONE THING WE DON'T DO

IS TAKE WHAT IS WRITTEN AS TO WHEN 'THE MARRIAGE SUPPER' TAKES PLACE (AFTER JUDGMENT)

AND

PLACE IT BEFORE TRIBULATION, BE THAT SATANS OR THE GREATS, LIKE THE APOSTASY DOES.

AGAIN AND TO BE CLEAR,
WE don't take WHAT we are told happens AFTER JUDGMENT AND TRY AND PLACE IT BEFORE THE TRIB AS THE APOSTASY DOES.

WE BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN AS IT IS WRITTEN AND NOT IN A WAY THAT IS NOT WRITTEN

Revelation 19:1 And after these things

(That would be Chapter 18 which ends with these)
Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

SO WE KNOW THOSE UNDER THE ALTAR HAVE BEEN AVENGED.

I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments:

SO WE KNOW THAT JUDGMENTS HAVE COME TO PASS

for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.

JUST IN CASE ANY ONE MISSED IT THE FIRST COUPLE TIMES
HE TELLS US YET AGAIN TO MAKE SURE WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT TIME IT IS, OR WHAT DAY IT IS, OR WHAT PART OF THE SEASON IT IS.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great.

HOW MANY OF HIS SERVANTS? ALL YE HIS SERVANTS. CAN WE SAY THEN IT IS ONLY A PART OF HIS SERVANTS?

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him:

BECAUSE JUDGMENT HAS COME AND SOULS HAVE BEEN AVENGED SO WE KNOW THE 'TRIBULATION' OF SATAN HAS ENDED AND SINCE WE KNOW 'THE BRIGHTNESS OF CHRIST DESTROYS SATAN WE KNOW CHRIST HAS RETURNED TO THE EARTH AS KING OF KING AND LORD OF LORDS.

WE ALSO KNOW 'THE ALIVE AND REMAINING HAVE BEEN CHANGED AND GATHERED TOGETHER WITH THOSE RETURNING WITH CHRIST FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE.

for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

SO NO 'PRE TRIB' RAPTURE NECESSARY FOR ALL THE SAINTS TO BE PRESENT FOR THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB AS ALL TRIBULATION AND GREAT TRIBULATION ARE PAST. SO WE SEE ALL SAINTS, THOSE WHO WERE UNDER THE ALTAR, THOSE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES IN TRIB, THE TWO WITNESSES, THE 144K, THE TWO STICKS MADE ONE AND THE ALIVE AND REMAINING.

THEY ALL MAKE IT TO THE SUPPER.

THAT IS WHAT WE BELIEVE.

SO WE WILL ASSUME IF the apostasy EVER PUTs FORTH THAT WE BELIEVE SOMETHING DIFFERENT again

it will be for their own purposes and not for truth, but FOR THE SAKE OF THE DOCTRINE.

One taken,one left. The rapture.

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