Translation issue(s)?

[phil36]

G5590 (BibleHub link)
psuché
Strong's Concordance

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

Did you read what you posted🤔. It answers your question.

 

[Runningman]

Did you read what you posted🤔. It answers your question.

Yes I read what I posted, but I’m not sure what you’re wanting me to see. I opened this thread for more insight. Do you mean definition (e)? A human person is a body, soul, and spirit and the lower a definition is in a list in a dictionary the more uncommonly used it is.

That doesn’t really help see why life is used instead of soul. Very curious why they translated it the way they did.

 

[Sipsey]

There are several good study aids in book and electronic form that will show you every instance of a Greek/Hebrew word used, its underlying form, and its ultimate translation into various languages.

The several words translated as Love in our English Bibles all have nuanced meanings, and yet all of them taken in combination form a truer picture of God’s love. We tend to compartmentalize aspects of human emotion and thought, and even tend to seperate the many attributes of God into separate subjects in order to better understand, yet everything that emanates from God is from His love- even justice.

Read, pray, study, and with time and effort, the simplicity of this life, and the Love of God becomes more evident.

 

[JaumeJ]

Good discussion

Just an observation but the term "soul" in English has also been used in a nautical sense to refer to lives.

"The ship went down with all souls lost at sea"

Which is also where SOS (save our souls) comes from, and in a more common English rendering means "save our lives" rather than something to the effect of "save our eternal souls"

It has always been my understanding that s.o.s was spelled out save our ship. I was a Single side-band radio operator in the USAF, also trained in sending and receiving by means of Morse code., and quite a bit more, but this does not say my life long understanding is correct. I like save our souls, but in all my days all said save our ship. Go figure.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
A translator's job is a can of worms because it is virtually impossible to move
one language into another verbatim due to difficulties with structure,
grammar, missing terms, compound words, idiom, culture, punctuation, and
ambiguity.

To make matters even worse, there exists none of the original manuscripts
with which they can check their work. In some cases, they're working with
hand-made copies of hand-made copies.
_

 

[Runningman]

I am not an expert in Greek, but I have seen many times how a translation is derived by a Greek expert. The same word can have many different meanings so the challenge to the translator is to choose the most appropriate meaning. Grammar and syntax are vital, but the context of the passage plays a key role. It's always context, context, and don't forget the context!

How about this verse where the words life and soul are used in place of the Greek word for soul? What is the context and why did Jesus say a life can be lost and a soul can be lost if they are the same words after all?

Matthew 16:25,26 KJV
25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[Runningman]

Really it comes down to the manuscripts that were used.

Biblehub uses the KJV as it's foundation within Strong's accordance.

Which manuscripts were used and did the translator choose the best appropriate word within the context.

In less, you have access to cross reference the verses using different manuscripts and have the ability to read them then your only hope as any layman is to study to the best you can, study the language the best you can, and check multiple translations to see how they compare.

It seems like the NIV and the KJV are translated from different manuscripts but still retained the same usage of the word life in place of soul as far as I can tell.

 

[Runningman]

A very interesting question. As a few already said context is the key to choosing the best English word for the translation of any Greek wordl. But the difficulty lies in the fact that we tend to read the English word "life" with the same meaning whether it comes from the Greek word psuche (breath, soul) or from zoe (spiritual life).

The issue at hand is always when the English audience reads the English word that is used, what will they understand it to mean?

From what I can tell, it looks like the usage of the Greek word didn’t change when they decided to translate it as life rather than soul. Perhaps they deferred to context instead. Still interesting that they chose the words they did in this particular word.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Really it comes down to the manuscripts that were used.

Biblehub uses the KJV as it's foundation within Strong's accordance.

Are you sure Bible Hub uses the KJV for Strong's? From what I can tell they don't use the KJV. For example, 2 Peter 1:21 says:

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (KJV)

"for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (NASB)

In the NASB the word "holy" has been removed; also in the NIV, NLT, ESV, BSB and BLB. Now look at Bible Hub's Strong's page for this verse: https://biblehub.com/strongs/2_peter/1-21.htm. No "holy."

 

[ResidentAlien]

2 Peter 1:21 may not have been the greatest example because I think the KJV used the word "holy" without much justification. I can't find it in the TR.

But my point is that in every case Bible Hub doesn't use the KJV text, but a modern translation, in Strong's.

 

[Runningman]

2 Peter 1:21 may not have been the greatest example because I think the KJV used the word "holy" without much justification. I can't find it in the TR.

But my point is that in every case Bible Hub doesn't use the KJV text, but a modern translation, in Strong's.

Still trying to figure out which translation, or manuscript, they’re using in the Strong’s lexicon at BibleHub. That would actually help a lot. I don’t see it’s clear on their website.

 

[Runningman]

Not really. These are all different aspects of the soul. Consider them as "synonyms".

So if they’re synonyms then they (the translators) could have just said” soul” and the same definition would apply?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

from another thread showing great discrepancy between the most original Greek Texts in the 3rd Century, which the Nicene Creed used, and the 1516 textus receptus the KJV uses.

.........................

we have been discussing Creeds in this thread. a CREED should ALIGN WORD for WORD to the Word of God.

Nicene Creed:
this is about Jesus:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, [[((of the essence))]] of the Father

let's examine this portion here : [[((of the essence))]]

the Original Greek Texts from 3rd Century in Hebrew 1 state: Hebrew 1:3 who, being the effulgence of his glory and the exact image of his [[((essence))]].

so the Nicene Creed uses the same language as the Original Greek. which shows us God is SPIRIT and Father-WORD is SPIRIT and are of the SAME ESSENCE.


now look at the texus receptus in the KJV:
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person

they put PERSON! they have changed both meanings to the Original Greek as it was first written and changed the Nicene Creed!



..................................................................................................................
let's look at the Apostle John:

1 John 5:7-8 from the 380 AD Greek
this is what the Apostle John [[actually wrote]]

7 For they that testify are three,

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.





what does the textus receptus kjv Bible claim john wrote?

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


so not only does the textus receptus kjv Bible change how a Verse reads and means, they have added [[((TWENTY-FIVE MORE WORDS))]] that originally [[DID NOT]] EXIST!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

just to add, 251 Verses have been changed or manipulated and over 1,000 words added from the 3rd Century Greek to the 1516 Textus Receptus KJV Bible.

Jerome had access to the most authentic Greek Texts of his day.

the Nicene Creed had same access to what Jerome had.

1,100 years later, some how over 1,000 words got added and 251 Verses were changed.

someone clearly did not believe the Commandment of Christ to not add or remove.

 

[fredoheaven]

I originally posted this as a comment, but it didn’t get any attention and it’s buried in a thread now. However, I’m very curious about this because I know there are people way more experienced with Greek than myself so I would love some feedback on this. Thank you!

In the New Testament the word for soul is sometimes translated to say life instead. Sometimes it’s even translated as heart or mind. (See Ephesians 6:6 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose heart and Philippians 1:27 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose mind.)

G5590 (BibleHub link)
psuché
Strong's Concordance

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

It’s used 104 times in the New Testament this way, often translated to say life rather than soul.

Thank you for your time I look forward to some responses.

Lets take a look of your reference to Strong. If you looked at the usage Strong mentioned 5 things to which include as the seat of affection which is the heart. So psuche is not limited only to a soul. God bless

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Strong's Concordance is based off the textus receptus.

no doubt there's many errors!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

look at the word Doctrine:

The first known use of doctrine was in the 14th century

so in the 14th Century [διδαχή] (Teaching) became the word Doctrine.

so the Apostles wrote TEACHINGS in the original Greek, but the textus receptus added Doctrine to mean TEACHINGS in 1516 AD.

 

[fredoheaven]

Strong's Concordance is based off the textus receptus.

no doubt there's many errors!

Hi if you read the OP, Runningman aid it was not actually KJB did translate pusche as heart but almost all the English Bible versions. You may google that to bible hub or blb. Thanks

 

[fredoheaven]

from another thread showing great discrepancy between the most original Greek Texts in the 3rd Century, which the Nicene Creed used, and the 1516 textus receptus the KJV uses.

.........................

we have been discussing Creeds in this thread. a CREED should ALIGN WORD for WORD to the Word of God.

Nicene Creed:
this is about Jesus:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, [[((of the essence))]] of the Father

let's examine this portion here : [[((of the essence))]]

the Original Greek Texts from 3rd Century in Hebrew 1 state: Hebrew 1:3 who, being the effulgence of his glory and the exact image of his [[((essence))]].

so the Nicene Creed uses the same language as the Original Greek. which shows us God is SPIRIT and Father-WORD is SPIRIT and are of the SAME ESSENCE.


now look at the texus receptus in the KJV:
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person

they put PERSON! they have changed both meanings to the Original Greek as it was first written and changed the Nicene Creed!



..................................................................................................................
let's look at the Apostle John:

1 John 5:7-8 from the 380 AD Greek
this is what the Apostle John [[actually wrote]]

7 For they that testify are three,

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.





what does the textus receptus kjv Bible claim john wrote?

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


so not only does the textus receptus kjv Bible change how a Verse reads and means, they have added [[((TWENTY-FIVE MORE WORDS))]] that originally [[DID NOT]] EXIST!

With respect, not going to derail the thread. Perhaps you can give us your idea about the topic at hand. God bless

 

[oyster67]

This is where it gets a bit difficult to me. The word life in “lays down one’s life for one’s friends” translates to soul,

Obviously it did not, and for good reason.

actually it’s the mortal body?

Of course. This is intuitive, logical, and commonly known. Context most always makes a thing clear if it is not already clear. The soul will either go up or down. There is not a third option. The Bible has already been translated from the ancient languages for us. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

This is like asking me if living plants have souls. We all know they don't, so why sweat it and beat dead horses?

Our essence has more than one part. Temporary body, eternal soul, and the Holy Spirit moves in later if we let God have His way. Some say man is born with a dark spirit, but others attribute that to the initial state of the soul. I will let others address that question, because it is not important to me. All that matters to me is that my sins are covered, and I am bound for my Heavenly home with Jesus.

God bless you and give you peace.