CHRIST THE CHOSEN ONE, THE ELECT OF THE FATHER

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved

John 8:47 - He that is of God heareth God's words, ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. If those beside the road heard God's words they were of God. They just had a heart condition.

No, they had a belief condition. Lack of belief.

John 8:47 is a contradiction to your interpretation of Luke 8:12.

Rather, the opposite. Luke 8:12 is clear enough. Believe and be saved. Not believe and not be saved. Couldn't be clearer.

If, in your theory, there is contradicting scriptures, then you are not interpreting them right.

I don't have any contradicting Scriptures. It seems you aren't reading Luke 8:12 correctly.

All of the scriptures must harmonize before the truth of Christ's doctrine is revealed

I know that.

If many, of God's, lost, elect children

Stop right there. That's a contradiction. God's children are those who are saved. Therefore, they are NOT lost. You can't be both LOST and God's children at the same time.

That's like saying you can be lost and found at the same time. Or black and white at the same time. Nope.

would give up on trying to give mankind the power to deliver themselves

We don't have that power anyway. You keep making the mistake of thinking that belief from man's heart is somehow inferior, and that IF man could believe for salvation, then he would be saving himself.

So, let me ask you a question. If you were deep in water and drowning, and a lifeboat came by and the lifeguard reached out with a lifebouy for you to gasp onto, would you say that you were saving yourself by grasping onto the lifebouy that was handed to you?

and give God all of the credit for eternally delivering them by his sovereign grace, without any help from mankind,

Another grave error from the calvinists. Placing one's full trust in the work of Christ on the cross doesn't help God in any way. Why do you think it would?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

those who seek Him (Acts 17:27) He's not far away.

These men of Athens, being born of God, and seeking to hear some new thing, and when they heard Jesus disputing in the synagogue with the Jews, took him unto Areopagus saying "may we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?"

Jesus told these people of Athens, who were born of God, verse 27, that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.

I give you credit for being relentless in your attempt to give the unregenerate man the ability to deliver himself eternally.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Correct. And Rom 1:19-21 says that they have no excuse.

Many of God's elect children refuses to believe that God, does many harsh actions in chastening his children.

I think you are confused. Rom 1:19-21 addresses unbelievers, unsaved people. Who have no excuse for not acknowledging God's existence and power, just as the text says. So your referencing "God's elect children" is irrelevant to Rom 1:19-21, which is about unbelievers.

There misunderstanding that God can do very terrible things in his harsh chastenings, that to many seem unloving, but chastening is a form of God's love toward us.

True. Many believers have never been taught about God's divine discipline that is painful. Heb 12:11.

Romans 1 is written to the called of Jesus Christ to be saints.

Yes, I can see that you misread.

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—

6 And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

Do you think that Paul was not yet an apostle, by the words "called to be an apostle"?
v.6 has similar language: Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. Do you think that they didn't yet belong to Jesus?

Verse 19 says "that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it unto them" verse 21, Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; (most of God's elect are not glorifying God, by giving power to mankind to deliver himself eternally)

Your parentheses is unneeded and irrelevant. It's not about saved people anyway.

Verse 26- For this cause (previous verses pointing out their transgressions) God gave them up unto vile affections.

Yes, God does allow sinful people to express their evil.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
those who seek Him (Acts 17:27) He's not far away.

These men of Athens, being born of God, and seeking to hear some new thing, and when they heard Jesus disputing in the synagogue with the Jews, took him unto Areopagus saying "may we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?"

Jesus told these people of Athens, who were born of God, verse 27, that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.

I see that you haven't read the text carefully at all. First, it is about Paul, NOT Jesus, as you noted twice.

Second, you twice claim the group in Athens were "born of God". That means they would have been saved, regenerated. But it is clear from the text that they were NOT. How could you miss such a clear message?

I give you credit for being relentless in your attempt to give the unregenerate man the ability to deliver himself eternally.

I see that you like to keep repeating this mantra of yours.

I'm not giving anyone anything. And what you say here shows that you don't believe Paul's answer to the jailer. The jailer wanted to know what he MUST DO to be saved (eternally) and Paul told him HOW; believe on the Lord Jesus and YOU will be saved.

Very clear. But obviously not clear at all to calvinists, like yourself.

I gave you a long list of verses that plainly say that salvation and eternal life are by believing in Jesus Christ.

So, like the people in Rom 1:21, you have no excuse. Just for different reasons.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I don't understand this. If they were "new born babes in Christ", that means they were believers in Christ. So what do you suppose they didn't know about Jesus accomplished for them on the cross?

My experience, when I was 50 years old, I was determined to figure out how to make the scripture harmonize and not, seemingly, contradict each other. I began studying with the mindset that I was smart enough to figure it out. After 12 years of studying, I gave up, thinking that I was not smart enough to figure it out, and not too long after the Holy Spirit began to reveal some things to me, gradually.


My point in telling you this, is that I am confident that the Holy Spirit within a person will not reveal truths to a person as long as he is depending upon his entelect.

The truth of what Christ accomplished on the cross, was the complete redemption of those that his Father gave him to die for. Jesus, by his death on the cross, giving them the assurance of their inheritance of heaven, saying that the work that his Father gave him to do is finished, and has made them as priests and kings in his kingdom

I am afraid that those that are not glorifying God, by giving him credit for their eternal deliverance by his sovereign grace, without any action on mankind's part, that the Holy Spirit will not reveal the truth of what Jesus accomplished on the cross.

Jesus has told us to deny ourselves, and take up our cross and follow him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My experience, when I was 50 years old, I was determined to figure out how to make the scripture harmonize and not, seemingly, contradict each other.

So you started out with an error. There are no contradictions in Scripture. I've never seen any.

I began studying with the mindset that I was smart enough to figure it out. After 12 years of studying, I gave up, thinking that I was not smart enough to figure it out, and not too long after the Holy Spirit began to reveal some things to me, gradually.
My point in telling you this, is that I am confident that the Holy Spirit within a person will not reveal truths to a person as long as he is depending upon his entelect.

Well, we disagree again. God created mankind with a conscience, per Rom 2:14,15, with which to be able to understand and make decisions based on that. God didn't create mankind UNABLE to understand His Word.

The truth of what Christ accomplished on the cross, was the complete redemption of those that his Father gave him to die for.

More disagreement. Jesus died for everyone. Many verses plainly say that. The argument that "all" doesn't mean "all inclusively" is bogus. Of course it does. Yes, when and ONLY WHEN the context makes clear that "all" only refers to a subset, does "all" not mean all inclusive.

Jesus, by his death on the cross, giving them the assurance of their inheritance of heaven, saying that the work that his Father gave him to do is finished, and has made them as priests and kings in his kingdom

I've been asking all along, and you have NOT YET provided any verses that say what you say.

My Bible study method is that of the Bereans, per Acts 17:11. They "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true".

That is what I do with what you SAY. Is there Scripture that says what you say? And since you haven't provided ANY verses that say what you say, why should I accept what you say?

I am afraid that those that are not glorifying God, by giving him credit for their eternal deliverance by his sovereign grace, without any action on mankind's part

Here is another error. You are equating "action" with "work". They aren't the same. Paul's answer to the jailer absolutely REFUTES your comment here. The jailer was told TO BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus to be saved. What you do is twist that all up to line up with calvinism.

that the Holy Spirit will not reveal the truth of what Jesus accomplished on the cross.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to REVEAL the truth of the Son of God to mankind.

Jesus has told us to deny ourselves, and take up our cross and follow him.

OK, now for the question: why? For what purpose? Can you explain that?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So you started out with an error. There are no contradictions in Scripture. I've never seen any

That is why I added the word "seemingly", I knew that did not contradict.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, we disagree again. God created mankind with a conscience, per Rom 2:14,15, with which to be able to understand and make decisions based on that. God didn't create mankind UNABLE to understand His Word.

These Gentiles were already born again, having the new fleshy heart, which shew the work of the law written their heart.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, we disagree again. God created mankind with a conscience, per Rom 2:14,15, with which to be able to understand and make decisions based on that. God didn't create mankind UNABLE to understand His Word.

The unregenerate person has a heart of stone that cannot be pricked to feel spiritual guilt, The only heart that can be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law of God, is the person who has been born again with the changed heart of flesh.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

More disagreement. Jesus died for everyone. Many verses plainly say that. The argument that "all" doesn't mean "all inclusively" is bogus. Of course it does. Yes, when and ONLY WHEN the context makes clear that "all" only refers to a subset, does "all" not mean all inclusive.

You, yourself, agree that the scriptures do not contradict one another. John 6:39 can not be predicted any other way than Jesus died for those that his Father gave him, and all of those that he died for will not be lost, because Jesus said that he would raise them up at the last day. Do you believe that Jesus will raise all mankind up at the last day, because they are not lost?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I've been asking all along, and you have NOT YET provided any verses that say what you say.

I have given you John 6:39. How do you interpret it?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Here is another error. You are equating "action" with "work". They aren't the same. Paul's answer to the jailer absolutely REFUTES your comment here. The jailer was told TO BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus to be saved. What you do is twist that all up to line up with calvinism.

My scriptures harmonize, yours do not.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Here is another error. You are equating "action" with "work". They aren't the same. Paul's answer to the jailer absolutely REFUTES your comment here. The jailer was told TO BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus to be saved. What you do is twist that all up to line up with calvinism.

An action of mankind is something that he does. When God quickens a spiritually dead person to be a spiritual person, there is no action on the part of the dead man. That is why it is called quickening by God's grace. You are confusing the regenerate mans action to obtain deliverance as he sojourns here in this world, with his eternal deliverance, which requires no action on man's part.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to REVEAL the truth of the Son of God to mankind.

Not so, if you want the scriptures to harmonize. We are to teach the gospel to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. not to the unregenerate, because they would not understand it, thinking that it is foolishness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, we disagree again. God created mankind with a conscience, per Rom 2:14,15, with which to be able to understand and make decisions based on that. God didn't create mankind UNABLE to understand His Word.

These Gentiles were already born again, having the new fleshy heart, which shew the work of the law written their heart.

Prove your claim with Scripture that supports your claim that they were "already born again". You keep giving your opinions, but you haven't provided any verse that says what you say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, we disagree again. God created mankind with a conscience, per Rom 2:14,15, with which to be able to understand and make decisions based on that. God didn't create mankind UNABLE to understand His Word.

The unregenerate person has a heart of stone that cannot be pricked to feel spiritual guilt,

This is just an opinion, unless you have a verse that says this.

The only heart that can be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law of God, is the person who has been born again with the changed heart of flesh.

Verse, please.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

OK, now for the question: why? For what purpose? Can you explain that?

When you walk obedient to God's commandments, he will bless you to have an abundant, and satisfying life as you sojourn here in this world. Few there be that find that straight gate and narrow way that leads to that abundant life.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Prove your claim with Scripture that supports your claim that they were "already born again". You keep giving your opinions, but you haven't provided any verse that says what you say.

The Gentiles already had the law written in their heart.

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, we disagree again. God created mankind with a conscience, per Rom 2:14,15, with which to be able to understand and make decisions based on that. God didn't create mankind UNABLE to understand His Word.

This is just an opinion, unless you have a verse that says this.


Verse, please.

The Jews, when they heard Peter's sermon accusing them of crucifying Christ, were pricked in their heart., and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "what must we do" Go read it.

The people that heard Steven preach the same sermon, were cut to the heart, and stoned him to death. Can you see the different reaction of the fleshy heart, and the heart of stone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
More disagreement. Jesus died for everyone. Many verses plainly say that. The argument that "all" doesn't mean "all inclusively" is bogus. Of course it does. Yes, when and ONLY WHEN the context makes clear that "all" only refers to a subset, does "all" not mean all inclusive.

You, yourself, agree that the scriptures do not contradict one another. John 6:39 can not be predicted any other way than Jesus died for those that his Father gave him, and all of those that he died for will not be lost, because Jesus said that he would raise them up at the last day.

Let's examine John 6:39 - And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

First, this verse doesn't even address who Jesus died for. You are presuming "given me" means who Jesus died for. But that is an error.

Second, there are many verses that plainly say that Jesus died for everyone, which refutes your presumption.

John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Please don't embarrass yourself by saying that "world" really means "world of the elect", or some other such unbiblical thing.

John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:15,16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

All these verses say "whoever". That INclusive, not EXclusive, which calvinism believes.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

If calvinism were correct, these verses would have said: the one who has been chosen has eternal life. But no verse says that.

2 Cor 5:14,15
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

The verse doesn't say "taste death for every one of the elect".

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

If Christ died ONLY for those who believe, then "especially of those who believe" would not be necessary.

In fact, the verse would have said, "the Savior of all believers" and even include "only believers".

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

You will NOT be able to prove that any of these verses that mention "the world" means "world of the elect".

Do you believe that Jesus will raise all mankind up at the last day, because they are not lost?

No, of course not. There will be more unsaved people than people, per Matt 7:14,15
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Only believers will be saved, as I have already proven by verses that say so.

Your calvinist talking points keep getting in the way. Calvinism believes that only those Christ died for will be saved, but yet, there are NO VERSES that say that.

So, why does calvinism believe that? Why do YOU believe that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have given you John 6:39. How do you interpret it?

post 639 is my explanation.