CHRIST THE CHOSEN ONE, THE ELECT OF THE FATHER
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consider that some are looking from this perspective , so it’s hard on the sight
“Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remains th the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
2 Corinthians 3:12-15 KJV
Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible it’s all true but it’s also like hearing God with cotton in our ears , and looking at God with a veil over our eyes we see basic shapes and shadows and earthly figures only meant to bring us to Jesus and the truth in the gospel
many can’t hear the thkngs of the gospel , because their waiting for the old testsment to be fulfilled as if israel obeyed the lord diligently and received the blessing, instead of worshipping many false gods , sacrificing tbier children to them in fire , sacrificing to them in Gods temple , in Gods city , teaching of them to gods people for generations and generations as of the promised curse doesn’t apply
…..but he did come to save and restore and redeem them just like he said he would , and they rejected and killed him
“Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: and when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Matthew 21:33-43 KJV
Jesus only preached to Israelites ( he did samaritans also and even a couple gentiles ) but said he was sent only to Israelites a few times the point he first preached the gospel to only israel
the. After they rejected and killed him ( as god already foreknew they would )
then He said to the ones of israel who had accepted and believed him , go preach the same gospel to everyone to all nationalities and people in all the world wverywhere tell them I am the son of God and I am truth , tell them I died for tbier sins and rose again , teach them everything I taught you preach the gospel of the kingdom to everyone and whoever believes and is baptized like all you Israelites were will be saved and accepted into my kingdom the new heaven and earth. And I will be with you my disciples until the end of the world
Some can’t convert because they are wearing Moses blindfold in the ot covenant and not allowing revelation of the New Testament to come and reveal the gospel and the better promises . They’re still looking at an earthly covenant which brought eventual destruction to creation and not the heavenly one that brings salvation from earths judgement and a new creation
“But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.”
Hebrews 8:6 KJV
“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
Hebrews 11:13, 16 KJV
“but ye are come unto mount Zion , and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel…..( read on )
Hebrews 12:22-24, 27-28 KJV
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
Revelation 4:1-2 KJV
“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
Revelation 5:6 KJV
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-17
in the end those people of all nations with Jesus in heaven these folks
“ye are come unto mount Zion , and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,”
in tbat city will
“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
Revelation 21:2-5 KJV
until we let go of the old well
Never understand the new
“Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remains th the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
2 Corinthians 3:12-15 KJV
Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible it’s all true but it’s also like hearing God with cotton in our ears , and looking at God with a veil over our eyes we see basic shapes and shadows and earthly figures only meant to bring us to Jesus and the truth in the gospel
many can’t hear the thkngs of the gospel , because their waiting for the old testsment to be fulfilled as if israel obeyed the lord diligently and received the blessing, instead of worshipping many false gods , sacrificing tbier children to them in fire , sacrificing to them in Gods temple , in Gods city , teaching of them to gods people for generations and generations as of the promised curse doesn’t apply
…..but he did come to save and restore and redeem them just like he said he would , and they rejected and killed him
“Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: and when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Matthew 21:33-43 KJV
Jesus only preached to Israelites ( he did samaritans also and even a couple gentiles ) but said he was sent only to Israelites a few times the point he first preached the gospel to only israel
the. After they rejected and killed him ( as god already foreknew they would )
then He said to the ones of israel who had accepted and believed him , go preach the same gospel to everyone to all nationalities and people in all the world wverywhere tell them I am the son of God and I am truth , tell them I died for tbier sins and rose again , teach them everything I taught you preach the gospel of the kingdom to everyone and whoever believes and is baptized like all you Israelites were will be saved and accepted into my kingdom the new heaven and earth. And I will be with you my disciples until the end of the world
Some can’t convert because they are wearing Moses blindfold in the ot covenant and not allowing revelation of the New Testament to come and reveal the gospel and the better promises . They’re still looking at an earthly covenant which brought eventual destruction to creation and not the heavenly one that brings salvation from earths judgement and a new creation
“But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.”
Hebrews 8:6 KJV
“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
Hebrews 11:13, 16 KJV
“but ye are come unto mount Zion , and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel…..( read on )
Hebrews 12:22-24, 27-28 KJV
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
Revelation 4:1-2 KJV
“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
Revelation 5:6 KJV
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-17
in the end those people of all nations with Jesus in heaven these folks
“ye are come unto mount Zion , and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,”
in tbat city will
“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
Revelation 21:2-5 KJV
until we let go of the old well
Never understand the new
I am sorry David but I really don't follow your thinking about Chapter 11 of Romans. It reminds me of a story:
A pastor went to listen to another pastor, who was going to expound a verse out of Matthew. He stated the verse, as his text. So he began teach and spent 45 minutes discussing his subject from it. When he was finished, he went to the other pastor. He asked the visiting pastor: "Well, have you ever seen that in this verse before?" And the visiting pastor responded: "No. And neither has anyone else."
A pastor went to listen to another pastor, who was going to expound a verse out of Matthew. He stated the verse, as his text. So he began teach and spent 45 minutes discussing his subject from it. When he was finished, he went to the other pastor. He asked the visiting pastor: "Well, have you ever seen that in this verse before?" And the visiting pastor responded: "No. And neither has anyone else."
FreeGrace2 said:
Do you have an open mind? I think it may be tightly closed, since you don't even bother refute my statements. Much less address the verses I quote and "explain" them.
I quoted Acts 16:30-31 and you don't agree with Paul's answer. So, no, you haven't refuted ANY of my statements, all of which can be found in the Bible.
Do you have an open mind? I think it may be tightly closed, since you don't even bother refute my statements. Much less address the verses I quote and "explain" them.
I quoted Acts 16:30-31 and you don't agree with Paul's answer. So, no, you haven't refuted ANY of my statements, all of which can be found in the Bible.
FreeGrace2 said:
Man is free to accept or reject the offer of salvation. That gives man NO glory or honor for merely accepting a gift.
You really think your opinion refutes what I said? It's just your opinion. I gave you an example of a drowning man receiving a lifebouy from a lifeguard.
So, is taking the lifebouy from the lifeguard something that you could brag about and claim that you saved yourself?
Please quit ignoring my questions and answer this one.
The reason you ignore that question is because it proves that your view that IF man gets saved on the basis of his faith, that gives glory to man, rather than God.
If YOU were the drowning man, and a lifeguard reached out and offered you a lifebouy, you'd be praising the lifeguard for saving you, and you KNOW IT.
That is exactly what happens in salvation. Jesus offers the free gift, and those who receive it, on the basis of faith IN Him, are saved.
All the praise goes to the One who offers the gift. Certainly NOT the one who takes it.
Jesus redeemed everyone that he died for without the loss of one.[/QUOTE]
Man is free to accept or reject the offer of salvation. That gives man NO glory or honor for merely accepting a gift.
You really think your opinion refutes what I said? It's just your opinion. I gave you an example of a drowning man receiving a lifebouy from a lifeguard.
So, is taking the lifebouy from the lifeguard something that you could brag about and claim that you saved yourself?
Please quit ignoring my questions and answer this one.
The reason you ignore that question is because it proves that your view that IF man gets saved on the basis of his faith, that gives glory to man, rather than God.
If YOU were the drowning man, and a lifeguard reached out and offered you a lifebouy, you'd be praising the lifeguard for saving you, and you KNOW IT.
That is exactly what happens in salvation. Jesus offers the free gift, and those who receive it, on the basis of faith IN Him, are saved.
All the praise goes to the One who offers the gift. Certainly NOT the one who takes it.
Jesus redeemed everyone that he died for without the loss of one.[/QUOTE]
FreeGrace2 said:
Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Your answer reveals your confusion too.
Well, your question is bogus. Everyone is capable of believing. What verse says otherwise? You have NONE that do.
Paul told the jailer what he did BECAUSE IF the jailer put his faith in Christ, he WOULD BE SAVED. It's that simple, but calvinism screws up the Bible.
Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Your answer reveals your confusion too.
Well, your question is bogus. Everyone is capable of believing. What verse says otherwise? You have NONE that do.
Paul told the jailer what he did BECAUSE IF the jailer put his faith in Christ, he WOULD BE SAVED. It's that simple, but calvinism screws up the Bible.
FreeGrace2 said:
From the slave girl:
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.
17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”
18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
There should be no doubt that she was screaming all this in a mocking tone, the only reason Paul would be annoyed. She was actually telling the truth, but in a way to make fun of it.
So, the jailer was asking how to go to heaven. And Paul told him.
OH, here we go again. I just proved from the text that the slave girl WAS talking about eternal soul salvation, obviously, and the jailer got wind of that. That is what motivated his question.
ALL confusion is on your end.
Because of your calvinism, you are not teachable. You don't have an open mind. It's shut tight because you have accepted calvinism over the clear words of the Bible.
From the slave girl:
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.
17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”
18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
There should be no doubt that she was screaming all this in a mocking tone, the only reason Paul would be annoyed. She was actually telling the truth, but in a way to make fun of it.
So, the jailer was asking how to go to heaven. And Paul told him.
OH, here we go again. I just proved from the text that the slave girl WAS talking about eternal soul salvation, obviously, and the jailer got wind of that. That is what motivated his question.
ALL confusion is on your end.
Because of your calvinism, you are not teachable. You don't have an open mind. It's shut tight because you have accepted calvinism over the clear words of the Bible.
Paul defined the "us" in v.4 in v.19, in the phrase "us who believe". You just can't get away from it. Man believes the gospel and God saves that man. But your calvinism won't let you believe that.
No one is saved or adopted based on Christ dying for them. That is a calvinist myth.
Because He died for the sins of everyone.
Sure they can. I gave you a long list of how to receive salvation and eternal life. But you don't believe them. You just keep reverting to your calvinist errors.
1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
Real simple: believe and receive eternal life. Notice who is doing the believing: "those". People. This has nothing to do with "the faith OF or FROM Christ", per Gal 2:16.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
God was pleased...to save those who believe.
Man must believe and God WILL save.
How are you going to try to wriggle your way out of these verses? This is Paul speaking, and totally REFUTING your calvinism.
I have verses that SAY what I SAY. You don't. You have opinions, without verses that SAY what you SAY.
No one is saved or adopted based on Christ dying for them. That is a calvinist myth.
Because He died for the sins of everyone.
Sure they can. I gave you a long list of how to receive salvation and eternal life. But you don't believe them. You just keep reverting to your calvinist errors.
1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
Real simple: believe and receive eternal life. Notice who is doing the believing: "those". People. This has nothing to do with "the faith OF or FROM Christ", per Gal 2:16.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
God was pleased...to save those who believe.
Man must believe and God WILL save.
How are you going to try to wriggle your way out of these verses? This is Paul speaking, and totally REFUTING your calvinism.
I have verses that SAY what I SAY. You don't. You have opinions, without verses that SAY what you SAY.
FreeGrace2 said:
Now, what did Jesus mean by "worship Him in spirit and in truth"?
I was hoping you could be a bit more clear.
Notice the word "spirit" isn't capitalized. It is referring to the human spirit, which is what gets the NEW birth, or is born AGAIN, or RE-generated at the moment of faith in Christ.
So, in order to worship God, a person must possess a live human spirit. Also, a person must worship according to God's plan, which is truth.
So, there are 2 things a person needs in order to properly worship God.
Now, what did Jesus mean by "worship Him in spirit and in truth"?
I was hoping you could be a bit more clear.
Notice the word "spirit" isn't capitalized. It is referring to the human spirit, which is what gets the NEW birth, or is born AGAIN, or RE-generated at the moment of faith in Christ.
So, in order to worship God, a person must possess a live human spirit. Also, a person must worship according to God's plan, which is truth.
So, there are 2 things a person needs in order to properly worship God.
Please quit ignoring my questions and answer this one.
The reason you ignore that question is because it proves that your view that IF man gets saved on the basis of his faith, that gives glory to man, rather than God.
If YOU were the drowning man, and a lifeguard reached out and offered you a lifebouy, you'd be praising the lifeguard for saving you, and you KNOW IT.
That is exactly what happens in salvation. Jesus offers the free gift, and those who receive it, on the basis of faith IN Him, are saved.
All the praise goes to the One who offers the gift. Certainly NOT the one who takes it.
You're just trying to avoid my example because it FITS the gospel.
Spiritually dead people are ALIVE physically and CAN respond to offers. So it is YOUR example that doesn't fit the Bible.
Jesus offers salvation to everyone. Want to see the verse again? Great! Here are the first 6 listed on bible hub.com:
New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
New Living Translation
For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.
English Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Berean Study Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.
Berean Literal Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
King James Bible
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
They all say the same thing. All men, everyone, all people clearly means everyone in the human race. There is NO WAY to get "the elect" from this verse.
God's grace brings salvation to everyone.
God's grace offers salvation to everyone.
All the same thing. And Titus 2:11 refutes calvinism.
So my example fits the Bible, whereas yours doesn't. Yours is like puppet theology. The puppetmaster does everything, and the stupid wooden headed puppet just lies there until the master starts pulling strings.
The thing that you'll never find in the Bible is puppetry.
The reason you ignore that question is because it proves that your view that IF man gets saved on the basis of his faith, that gives glory to man, rather than God.
If YOU were the drowning man, and a lifeguard reached out and offered you a lifebouy, you'd be praising the lifeguard for saving you, and you KNOW IT.
That is exactly what happens in salvation. Jesus offers the free gift, and those who receive it, on the basis of faith IN Him, are saved.
All the praise goes to the One who offers the gift. Certainly NOT the one who takes it.
You're just trying to avoid my example because it FITS the gospel.
Spiritually dead people are ALIVE physically and CAN respond to offers. So it is YOUR example that doesn't fit the Bible.
Jesus offers salvation to everyone. Want to see the verse again? Great! Here are the first 6 listed on bible hub.com:
New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
New Living Translation
For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.
English Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Berean Study Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.
Berean Literal Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
King James Bible
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
They all say the same thing. All men, everyone, all people clearly means everyone in the human race. There is NO WAY to get "the elect" from this verse.
God's grace brings salvation to everyone.
God's grace offers salvation to everyone.
All the same thing. And Titus 2:11 refutes calvinism.
So my example fits the Bible, whereas yours doesn't. Yours is like puppet theology. The puppetmaster does everything, and the stupid wooden headed puppet just lies there until the master starts pulling strings.
The thing that you'll never find in the Bible is puppetry.
FreeGrace2 said:
Huh? Where did Jesus teach this in Scripture? John wrote that and he wasn't quoting Jesus when he wrote it.
How do you come up with these wild conclusions? I never even suggested such a thing. You're just trying to change the subject.
John wrote as the Holy Spirit led him. Yes, he did quote Jesus a lot.
It is clear that you can't answer my question, so you try to dodge by changing the subject.
Just answer the question, please.
Huh? Where did Jesus teach this in Scripture? John wrote that and he wasn't quoting Jesus when he wrote it.
How do you come up with these wild conclusions? I never even suggested such a thing. You're just trying to change the subject.
John wrote as the Holy Spirit led him. Yes, he did quote Jesus a lot.
It is clear that you can't answer my question, so you try to dodge by changing the subject.
Just answer the question, please.
Amore accurate example would be; A swimmer was drowned and floating on top of the water. The lifeguard saw him and swam out and pulled him ashore, gave him CPR and brought him to life. Dead men cannot save themselves Eph 2:1 Dead in sins.[/QUOTE]
lol - i like it[/QUOTE]
IT does fit calvinism well. Using an example of a dead man to represent a wooden headed puppet who has no life.
Not even close to reality, though.
Spiritually dead people are physically alive and CAN make decisions and receive gifts. They have a conscience that is alive and functioning, to know right from wrong, unlike any puppet.
lol - i like it[/QUOTE]
IT does fit calvinism well. Using an example of a dead man to represent a wooden headed puppet who has no life.
Not even close to reality, though.
Spiritually dead people are physically alive and CAN make decisions and receive gifts. They have a conscience that is alive and functioning, to know right from wrong, unlike any puppet.
lol - i like it[/QUOTE]
IT does fit calvinism well. Using an example of a dead man to represent a wooden headed puppet who has no life.
Not even close to reality, though.
Spiritually dead people are physically alive and CAN make decisions and receive gifts. They have a conscience that is alive and functioning, to know right from wrong, unlike any puppet.[/QUOTE]
i SEE your point and i believe this scripture lends support to your view = John 1:10-11
"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name."
BUT the next verse seems to take away support of your view = John 1:12
"who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. "
Something to SEE and THINK about as we search the scriptures for understanding.
Peace my Brother
*Rrrrrhhh* buzzer
If you look at Mat 13:36-53, there is a clear, explicit example of Jesus answering his disciples with parable. So no, your impression that Jesus never spoke to His disciples in parable is wrong. And this is a great example about how trying to intuitively guess everything because it "feels right" will very often lead you to an incorrect understanding.
Your approach is so lazy that you don't even bother trying to check your own understanding against scripture. Knowing you, you will still be arguing that somehow Jesus speaking in parable to His disciples wasn't actually the case. Try that and its strike two.
What's wrong with mystery? You seem very opposed to admitting that something might be ambiguous, or that something would intentionally be left as an unknown. There are explicit examples of things being left unknown, including the seven thunders in Revelation.
I was really hoping you would zero-in when I stated that "not even Jesus knows everything." Mark 13:32 evidences the fact that Christ doesn't know everything. And if Jesus doesn't know everything, why would the disciples?
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." - Mark 13:32 KJV
There are a few reasons why Jesus could have replied with a nonanswer to His disciples in Acts 1:6-7. One possibility was that there was a reason they weren't supposed to know. Another possibility is that Jesus Himself did not know and was unable to provide the information requested.
How is "it's not your place to know" not the right understanding?
Well, no, not if you understand how logic and exegesis works. You don't, which is why you are talking like this.
And what are you criticizing exactly? The fact that Jesus said "it's not for you to know" ? It sounds like you just disagree with Christian scripture.
You are suggesting that a mystery can't be helpful in understanding something.
Also, everything in its own time. Why would you assume every mystery should be resolved here and now?
Leaving something as a mystery is not an incorrect interpretation in itself. Leaving something as a mystery avoids the error of incorrect interpretation. Jesus' words can be seen as advice not to guess (and thereby avoid error).
Pssstttt, stop guessing!
The passage literally and in a straightforward manner states "It is not for you to know" and instead of accepting that at face-value, you have chosen to reject it because it doesn't fit in with your Kabbalah numerology mysticism or whatever it is that you are practising.
And "bring down your Eschatological beliefs"? Can you please look up what words mean before you use them. It would also be helpful if you can figure out "except" vs "accept" and the like while you're at it.
If by "spiritual discernment" you mean blind wild guessing at the meaning of things, you are correct, you probably aren't going to find very much of that.
"instead you argue scripture ... spouting... logic"
Darn that pesky spouting of logic! .... Can you please think before you type.
If you are going to search comment history, can you at least paraphrase correctly? Logos, ethos, and pathos. An argument can be from authority (ethos) such as "The Christian Bible is the inerrant word of God". An argument can be from rational reasoning (logos) such as 1+X=2, therefore X=1. An argument can be from feeling (pathos), such as "I intuitively feel that this is the right answer"
You can make sound argumentation using a combination of the three. Usually ethos as the foundation / axiom ("the Christian Bible is authoritative"). From there we determine what is logically possible, necessarily true, or necessarily false. And from what is possible we can address what we feel to be the most compelling case.
The sad truth is that this process isn't anything special. You can take away the Greek terms and explain this in terms of mathematical language. Declare the range & domain of your function, plot the given equation and determine whether some of the outputs intuitively make sense.
I think with the likely level of math literacy, I might as well be speaking Greek.
I think you would like to call it worldly wisdom for the convenience of calling it foolish, but you are wrong. And it should be noted that your entire approach of listening to Talmudic Rabbis and waiting for earthly signs of things to come is exactly what the other part of that passage is warning against when it talks about Jews' signs and stumblingblocks.
There is an intrinsic logical nature that reality is bound within. Words have meaning. These meanings have a relationship to each other. The Greeks recognized these intrinsic truths and built a sophistocated language around it. Yes, also from the Greeks came obsolete worldly wisdoms such as the four humours and other worldly thinkings. The presence of some worldly thinking does not mean that all of Greek philosophy was nonsense. And that does not mean that none of Greek philosophy was God-inspired. Why do you think God would choose to speak through the Greek language if He had not prepared it to be an appropriate vessel for His meanings?
In your opinion, can a spiritual discernment contradict scripture?
If you later found out that your "spiritual discernment" did contradict scripture, what does that mean?
Now that you know that your "spiritual discernment" of "Jesus never talks to His Disciples in parables" is false, what does that mean about your capability for spiritual discernment?
Is your spiritual discernment fallible or infallible?
Logos goes together with the Holy Spirit. Intuition can too. But in each case, we will never find a scenario where a true understanding contains a logical contradiction. Logos is an effective way to check for incorrect understandings and offers a means to discard incorrect doctrine. But most importantly, a good understanding needs to start from Christian scripture as the foundation, not Talmudic Rabbinic teachings and Kabbalah mysticism.
Pure logic is never subjective. Intuition can be.
How does one compare God's word against God's word without logic?
Except for the fact that God stated "it's not for you to know" and you don't believe it.
That's pretty ironic considering the first two points were from a Dispensationalist.
Please define "Objective Truth" in plain English. My prediction is that you will provide some kind of recursive statement like: "Objective Truth is rightly dividing, and rightly dividing is Objective Truth".
Just no. Keep your foot out of your mouth. This is above your level. Go read a book. Learn something. Challenge yourself. If you can't be bothered to take five minutes to research how this works, I can't be bothered to reply to you further.
FreeGrace2 said:
Amore accurate example would be; A swimmer was drowned and floating on top of the water. The lifeguard saw him and swam out and pulled him ashore, gave him CPR and brought him to life. Dead men cannot save themselves Eph 2:1 Dead in sins.
i SEE your point and i believe this scripture lends support to your view = John 1:10-11
"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name."
BUT the next verse seems to take away support of your view = John 1:12
"who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. "[/QUOTE]
No, v.12 doesn't. The issue in v.12 is regeneration, which is NOT man's choice, but God's choice for believers.
Remember, faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.
When man believes the gospel promise, God saves and regenerates the believer.
Amore accurate example would be; A swimmer was drowned and floating on top of the water. The lifeguard saw him and swam out and pulled him ashore, gave him CPR and brought him to life. Dead men cannot save themselves Eph 2:1 Dead in sins.
i SEE your point and i believe this scripture lends support to your view = John 1:10-11
"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name."
BUT the next verse seems to take away support of your view = John 1:12
"who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. "[/QUOTE]
No, v.12 doesn't. The issue in v.12 is regeneration, which is NOT man's choice, but God's choice for believers.
Remember, faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.
When man believes the gospel promise, God saves and regenerates the believer.