Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4
- Thread starter Walter
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The rapture is taught in scripture. The PRETRIBULATIONAL rapture is the innovation. There may be a couple of individuals who believed that way before Darby's version of it gained some popularity and was spread to the US through the Schofield Bible commentary.
The Bible does not say that Jesus returns twice before the thousand years or that there will be a mass resurrection of the dead before the 'first resurrection.'
This is an ASSERTION, not something you can prove with scripture. The idea that the marriage supper occurs in heaven fits your eschatology, so you insist that is the case. But in scripture, the announcement comes right before the passage about the Rider on the white horse, which we both take as referring to the second coming. There is also a reference to the supper of God after this passage.
Revelation 19
9 And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” 10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
(ESV)
It does NOT say that the marriage supper takes place in heaven. The resurrection of the dead in Christ happens at the rapture according to I Thessalonians 4.
Revelation 20 tells of the first resurrection after this second coming passage. Some of these events may be happening at the same time.
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
(ESV)
Revelation 19
9 And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” 10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
(ESV)
It does NOT say that the marriage supper takes place in heaven. The resurrection of the dead in Christ happens at the rapture according to I Thessalonians 4.
Revelation 20 tells of the first resurrection after this second coming passage. Some of these events may be happening at the same time.
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
(ESV)
After much study, 'pre-trib' IS FOR me, According To God's Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II):
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
--------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY!...
Divided (+ I and II):
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
--------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY!...
after the worlds tribulation and before Gods ultimate wrath his wrath is going to burn everything up so definately before that but what about the earthly and worldly tribulation Jesus said the church would endure to the end ?
gods wrath isn’t the same as the earthly tribulation he explains that would surely come upon Christian’s in this world and they are commanded to endure till the end and be saved
are youbtring gods wrath together with earthly tribulation ? I definately agree we’re going to be saved from the lake of fire Gods wrath , but what about the worldly events leading up to it ? It seems e church will be “ raptured “ after the dead are raised up at the end of the world
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;( the gospel )
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”( his second coming )
Hebrews 9:28 KJV
pre tribulation rapture doesn’t work in any way , “pre wrath “ of course we aren’t headed for the lake of fire if we accept Jesus but tribulation is part of the churches plight in the wicked world
gods wrath isn’t the same as the earthly tribulation he explains that would surely come upon Christian’s in this world and they are commanded to endure till the end and be saved
are youbtring gods wrath together with earthly tribulation ? I definately agree we’re going to be saved from the lake of fire Gods wrath , but what about the worldly events leading up to it ? It seems e church will be “ raptured “ after the dead are raised up at the end of the world
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;( the gospel )
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”( his second coming )
Hebrews 9:28 KJV
pre tribulation rapture doesn’t work in any way , “pre wrath “ of course we aren’t headed for the lake of fire if we accept Jesus but tribulation is part of the churches plight in the wicked world
Pretribbers do not have great difficulty when pressed to show scripture that gives evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture will take place before the second coming.
Jesus returns to the clouds at the Rapture of the Church (1 Thess 4:17) and then returns to the earth seven years later (the Second Coming to earth) to resurrect the Tribulation Saints (Rev 20:4) and this is not a rapture.
So now we all know that...
Pretribbers do not have great difficulty when pressed to show scripture that gives evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture will take place before the second coming.
Jesus returns to the clouds at the Rapture of the Church (1 Thess 4:17) and then returns to the earth seven years later (the Second Coming to earth) to resurrect the Tribulation Saints (Rev 20:4) and this is not a rapture.
So now we all know that...
Pretribbers do not have great difficulty when pressed to show scripture that gives evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture will take place before the second coming.
the “rapture” is certainly the time God gathers his elect isn’t it ? So here’s my scripture
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24-27 KJV
That is this same day when he gathers his people
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
The sun moon and stars are gone that day , the tribulation has ended the church still alive on earth is saved that day after the dead in Christ are raised up
It’s just as when he left he will return at the end of the world to gather his people he cast the net with the gospel and then in the end
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 13:47-50 KJV
one appointed day Jesus will return no one knows when but when he does he’s going to make good on his words gathering all believers and saving them from e condemnation ahead
what scripture tells us Jesus is going to gather his people before the tribulation he spent the chapter preparing them to go through and to not lose hesrt and to stand strong to the end and be saved ?
I don’t think I’ve ever had a pre tribber actually do that but it could be just that Jesus said he would return after the tribulation to gather his people if we’re saying the rapture is when God is going to gather his people from earth I’m not really sure how it’s even a question
If the “ rapture” is the day Jesus returns to get his people it’s without a doubt after the tribulation
-
1
- Show all
I am saying that after Jesus returns to the clouds to meet us in the air, He will take us to His wedding in Heaven and return with us to Earth seven years later at His Second Coming. I think that is very simple, straightforward, and Biblical. Do you now understand what I am saying?
Is that a serious question?
The first resurrection is the resurrection of believers. The first part happens at the Rapture and the second part happens at the Second Coming seven years later.
The second resurrection is the resurrection of the unbelievers, and this happens at the end of the Millennium and is called the Great White Throne Judgement.
Do you understand what I am saying now? Just read the Bible and it will become clear.
Is that a serious question?
The first resurrection is the resurrection of believers. The first part happens at the Rapture and the second part happens at the Second Coming seven years later.
The second resurrection is the resurrection of the unbelievers, and this happens at the end of the Millennium and is called the Great White Throne Judgement.
Do you understand what I am saying now? Just read the Bible and it will become clear.
I understand what you are saying, but I do not see how it is Biblical.
Catching us up to meet the Lord in the clouds. Yes. Taking us to heaven (beyond the clouds) at the point... no. I don't see that. The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds according to Paul. The Lord comes with His saints according to Paul. He does not say that He takes them to heaven.
The announcement of the wedding feast is made right before the Rider on a white horse passage near the end of the book of Revelation, which comes right before the description of the _first resurrection_. Your scenario has a mass resurrection of the saints before the 'first resurrection'.
Where is the evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture occurs before the tribulation. In II Thessalonians 1, we see the church will be experiencing tribulation (same Greek word) and will receive rest from it when the Lord returns. At His return, He executes vengeance on them that believe not when he comes to be glorified in them that believe. Pre-trib has the saints receive rest. Is He coming to be glorified in them that believe in a pretrib scenario? They go up into heaven in a pretrib scenario. Does He execute vengeance on unbelievers at His coming in a pre-trib scenario. The version I was taught had a time of peace, then tribulation, then Jesus coming back. Where is this pretrib scenario in the Bible at all?
Pre-tribbers are taught this-- going to heaven for seven years, etc. then read verses around that idea, but there aren't any verses that teach the pretrib scenario. If there are, they haven't shown me over the years as I have asked for them. I just constantly hear pretribbers wrap verses around their assumed pretrib scenario, not teaching the pretrib scenario from the actual scriptures themselves.
It was meant to illustrate the problem with using the fact that Jesus catches up the believers in the cloud as an argument against Jesus then returning to earth. Matthew 24 speaks of the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven AFTER the tribulation. That doesn't keep Him from returning to earth, and that is yet another parallel between the second coming passage of Matthew 24 and the second coming rapture passage, I Thessalonians 4.
What about the giant green zipper and the mid tribulational rapture that happens when the angel unzips the giant green zipper in the sky? Oh yeah, that isn't in the Bible. Neither is the idea that part of the 'first resurrection' that scripture sets at the end book of Revelation had a first wave before the tribulation.
I think you just assume that pre-trib is true and Biblical because you were taught it, and assume that if someone reads the Bible, it will become clear. But have you actually sat down and studied through the end times passages trying to find the pretrib rapture? It isn't there. There isn't a rapture of the saints at the beginning of the book of Revelation. There isn't a mass resurrection of those that are Christ's at the beginning of the book, either. Pre-tribbers just assume pre-trib is true and say this passage about the 'parousia'-- coming of Christ, is about the pre-trib rapture, and this verse about the parousia is about the second coming. But the Bible doesn't break it down that way. It just talks about the parousia, not multiple events.
Catching us up to meet the Lord in the clouds. Yes. Taking us to heaven (beyond the clouds) at the point... no. I don't see that. The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds according to Paul. The Lord comes with His saints according to Paul. He does not say that He takes them to heaven.
The announcement of the wedding feast is made right before the Rider on a white horse passage near the end of the book of Revelation, which comes right before the description of the _first resurrection_. Your scenario has a mass resurrection of the saints before the 'first resurrection'.
Where is the evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture occurs before the tribulation. In II Thessalonians 1, we see the church will be experiencing tribulation (same Greek word) and will receive rest from it when the Lord returns. At His return, He executes vengeance on them that believe not when he comes to be glorified in them that believe. Pre-trib has the saints receive rest. Is He coming to be glorified in them that believe in a pretrib scenario? They go up into heaven in a pretrib scenario. Does He execute vengeance on unbelievers at His coming in a pre-trib scenario. The version I was taught had a time of peace, then tribulation, then Jesus coming back. Where is this pretrib scenario in the Bible at all?
Pre-tribbers are taught this-- going to heaven for seven years, etc. then read verses around that idea, but there aren't any verses that teach the pretrib scenario. If there are, they haven't shown me over the years as I have asked for them. I just constantly hear pretribbers wrap verses around their assumed pretrib scenario, not teaching the pretrib scenario from the actual scriptures themselves.
Is that a serious question?
What about the giant green zipper and the mid tribulational rapture that happens when the angel unzips the giant green zipper in the sky? Oh yeah, that isn't in the Bible. Neither is the idea that part of the 'first resurrection' that scripture sets at the end book of Revelation had a first wave before the tribulation.
I think you just assume that pre-trib is true and Biblical because you were taught it, and assume that if someone reads the Bible, it will become clear. But have you actually sat down and studied through the end times passages trying to find the pretrib rapture? It isn't there. There isn't a rapture of the saints at the beginning of the book of Revelation. There isn't a mass resurrection of those that are Christ's at the beginning of the book, either. Pre-tribbers just assume pre-trib is true and say this passage about the 'parousia'-- coming of Christ, is about the pre-trib rapture, and this verse about the parousia is about the second coming. But the Bible doesn't break it down that way. It just talks about the parousia, not multiple events.
Yes He will, but that is not the Rapture spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4.
Here is a verse concerning your post-tribulation resurrection event:
Revelation 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
This is not the Rapture event spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4.
God is preparing His Bride for a wedding, not a bloodbath. Many Christians are enduring trials right now. God will not pour out His Tribulation wrath upon His Bride. Part of Israel will not be ready. It is they who God will carry through the Tribulation. As for His Church bride...
John 14:
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of any Rapture event after the Tribulation. The Tribulation Saints are resurrected, but not raptured up to heaven for the Marriage.
Here is a verse concerning your post-tribulation resurrection event:
Revelation 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
This is not the Rapture event spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4.
God is preparing His Bride for a wedding, not a bloodbath. Many Christians are enduring trials right now. God will not pour out His Tribulation wrath upon His Bride. Part of Israel will not be ready. It is they who God will carry through the Tribulation. As for His Church bride...
John 14:
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of any Rapture event after the Tribulation. The Tribulation Saints are resurrected, but not raptured up to heaven for the Marriage.
No, we don't assume; some of us actually prayerfully/Carefully 'study
God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!'...:
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
...and then believe God's Truth!!
God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!'...:
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
...and then believe God's Truth!!
-
1
- Show all
John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Revelation 19:
3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
This event, which clearly takes place in Heaven, shows the Church Bride being clothed in her fine linen, clean and white. Several verses later, it shows her returning back down to Earth with Jesus at His Secong Coming to Earth to reign for 1000 years...
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Revelation 19:
3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
This event, which clearly takes place in Heaven, shows the Church Bride being clothed in her fine linen, clean and white. Several verses later, it shows her returning back down to Earth with Jesus at His Secong Coming to Earth to reign for 1000 years...
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”
Right.
And BETWEEN those two points in time, the resurrection of the Two Witnesses occurs, and they ascended [not "snatched"] up in to heaven (that is at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology... at a time-slot distinct from when all others will be resurrected)...
... There's a reason why the phrase "[re: resurrection, see v.22b] But each [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] in the own ORDER / RANK" (no need to say this if there remains only ONE at one singular point in time ).
Right.
Same with the OT saints who will be "resurrected [meaning, 'to stand again' on the earth] at that same time-slot (His Second Coming to the earth time-slot, Rev19... per Daniel 12:13 "thou shalt rest [in death] and stand in thy lot [stand again on the earth / be resurrected] at the END OF THE DAYS [at the END of the 'days' being referred to in this Dan12 context, i.e. at the END of the Trib yrs]"--otherwise known as " IN the last day" (not "ON the last day" as though speaking of a "24-hr day" kind of day), i.e. FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age ("the last day"... i.e. the 7th Millennium... the "[IN the] THIRD day" of Hos6:2... the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9... etc).
All OT saints WELL-KNEW of that instance of "resurrection" [not "rapture / caught up / snatched"] (see Job 19:25-27, Dan12:13, Jn11:24 "AT / IN the last day");
But Paul states, "Behold, I SHEW you a MYSTERY..." which, the word "mystery" means something which HADN'T been previously disclosed, but that was NOW being disclosed... (this, Paul was tasked with...)
And BETWEEN those two points in time, the resurrection of the Two Witnesses occurs, and they ascended [not "snatched"] up in to heaven (that is at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology... at a time-slot distinct from when all others will be resurrected)...
... There's a reason why the phrase "[re: resurrection, see v.22b] But each [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] in the own ORDER / RANK" (no need to say this if there remains only ONE at one singular point in time
).Right.
Same with the OT saints who will be "resurrected [meaning, 'to stand again' on the earth] at that same time-slot (His Second Coming to the earth time-slot, Rev19... per Daniel 12:13 "thou shalt rest [in death] and stand in thy lot [stand again on the earth / be resurrected] at the END OF THE DAYS [at the END of the 'days' being referred to in this Dan12 context, i.e. at the END of the Trib yrs]"--otherwise known as " IN the last day" (not "ON the last day" as though speaking of a "24-hr day" kind of day), i.e. FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age ("the last day"... i.e. the 7th Millennium... the "[IN the] THIRD day" of Hos6:2... the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9... etc).
All OT saints WELL-KNEW of that instance of "resurrection" [not "rapture / caught up / snatched"] (see Job 19:25-27, Dan12:13, Jn11:24 "AT / IN the last day");
But Paul states, "Behold, I SHEW you a MYSTERY..." which, the word "mystery" means something which HADN'T been previously disclosed, but that was NOW being disclosed... (this, Paul was tasked with...)
-
1
- Show all
Yeah brother I must not even understand what you mean by “ rapture event” I though the “ rapture” referred to when Jesus returns to gather his people from earth
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24, 27 KJV
so to clarify what I’m saying jesus isnt going to return and gather his elect people from earth until after the tribulation.
Can you explain what’s the “ rapture event “ ? I don’t think I’ve ever heard of it
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24, 27 KJV
so to clarify what I’m saying jesus isnt going to return and gather his elect people from earth until after the tribulation.
Can you explain what’s the “ rapture event “ ? I don’t think I’ve ever heard of it
“John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Thats for when we live and choose Christ and face the hardships and trials of earthly life brother and then we die and if we’ve been faithful believers omg the way we’re going to enter the kingdom in heaven and be part of Christs heavenly reign before he returns from heaven to earth and gathers the dead and living in Christ from heaven and earth.
He speaks to a dying man who believes
“And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:42-43
he lived and sinned , suffered the trials of this world and consequences of sin on earth , died believing in Jesus and entered the kingdom of heaven
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19
that’s where jesus is reigning , and this would be where that man on the cross must be
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-10, 13-17 KJV
There is a reign in heaven already happening brother , since Christ arrived on the throne having redeemed man from death.
Revelation isn’t a linear book but several visions layered upon one another chapter seven adds detail to identify thy owe people in chapters 12s vision
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:5, 10-12
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
The tribulation happens in this lifetime before we die for many because of that war the devil wages against Christian’s on earth
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
for some they simply don’t face much tribulation on earth and weren’t meant to. he had other things they needed to do for his kingdom while they lived certain generations get it harder than others but there’s always going to be Christian persecution and tribulation on earth because Satan was set loose on earth and barred from heaven he’s taking out his wrath on Christian’s trying to keep them from the kingdom he lost
When a true Christian dies brother they are entering the reign of Jesus Christ in the heavens and will be there until he returns but he’s waiting and remember this part out the “thousand “year reign
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:8-9 KJV
so that reign of Christ and his redeemed in his kingdom is going to last until no one will repent anymore on earth and the earth has turned against him completely and not a thousand years by man’s measure then he will return and get her everyone left alive that believes still and end this world it’s when we die tbat we are delivered from the perils , tribulations and persecutions of this world against Christ and his people
“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
Revelation 14:13
So while we live on earth any generation when we die as believers we are entering the kingdom in heaven to be present before Christs throne a true paradise we can’t even imagine properly
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:6, 8-10 KJV
While we live we live on earth when we die as Christian’s we move on to the lords kingdom in heaven until his return to earth if you look on revelation there’s a whole kingdom set up in heaven with Jesus and people both Jew and gentile and they are alive and well reigning with Christ the king and in the end of revelation that lord from returns to a new earth void of evil and tribulation
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
Revelation 21:1-2 KJV
as you see in revelation throughout many times , its already filled with people from all nations praising the lord Jesus before his throne
thats concurrent with the earth and what’s happening with the dragon and his beast against the saints on earth they are bieng persecuted and killed on earth and arriving in heaven celebrating with the lord
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
Revelation 13:7-10
when they die they are going to reign in the kingdom with Christ until the restoration of earth
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Thats for when we live and choose Christ and face the hardships and trials of earthly life brother and then we die and if we’ve been faithful believers omg the way we’re going to enter the kingdom in heaven and be part of Christs heavenly reign before he returns from heaven to earth and gathers the dead and living in Christ from heaven and earth.
He speaks to a dying man who believes
“And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:42-43
he lived and sinned , suffered the trials of this world and consequences of sin on earth , died believing in Jesus and entered the kingdom of heaven
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19
that’s where jesus is reigning , and this would be where that man on the cross must be
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-10, 13-17 KJV
There is a reign in heaven already happening brother , since Christ arrived on the throne having redeemed man from death.
Revelation isn’t a linear book but several visions layered upon one another chapter seven adds detail to identify thy owe people in chapters 12s vision
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:5, 10-12
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
The tribulation happens in this lifetime before we die for many because of that war the devil wages against Christian’s on earth
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
for some they simply don’t face much tribulation on earth and weren’t meant to. he had other things they needed to do for his kingdom while they lived certain generations get it harder than others but there’s always going to be Christian persecution and tribulation on earth because Satan was set loose on earth and barred from heaven he’s taking out his wrath on Christian’s trying to keep them from the kingdom he lost
When a true Christian dies brother they are entering the reign of Jesus Christ in the heavens and will be there until he returns but he’s waiting and remember this part out the “thousand “year reign
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:8-9 KJV
so that reign of Christ and his redeemed in his kingdom is going to last until no one will repent anymore on earth and the earth has turned against him completely and not a thousand years by man’s measure then he will return and get her everyone left alive that believes still and end this world it’s when we die tbat we are delivered from the perils , tribulations and persecutions of this world against Christ and his people
“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
Revelation 14:13
So while we live on earth any generation when we die as believers we are entering the kingdom in heaven to be present before Christs throne a true paradise we can’t even imagine properly
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:6, 8-10 KJV
While we live we live on earth when we die as Christian’s we move on to the lords kingdom in heaven until his return to earth if you look on revelation there’s a whole kingdom set up in heaven with Jesus and people both Jew and gentile and they are alive and well reigning with Christ the king and in the end of revelation that lord from returns to a new earth void of evil and tribulation
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
Revelation 21:1-2 KJV
as you see in revelation throughout many times , its already filled with people from all nations praising the lord Jesus before his throne
thats concurrent with the earth and what’s happening with the dragon and his beast against the saints on earth they are bieng persecuted and killed on earth and arriving in heaven celebrating with the lord
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
Revelation 13:7-10
when they die they are going to reign in the kingdom with Christ until the restoration of earth
I know you are asking oyster67... but if I may...
Merriam-Webster defines the word "event" this way:
[quoting]
1 a : something that happens : OCCURRENCE
b : a noteworthy happening
[...]
OCCURRENCE, EVENT, INCIDENT, EPISODE, CIRCUMSTANCE mean something that happens or takes place.
-- OCCURRENCE may apply to a happening without intent, volition, or plan.
an encounter that was a chance occurrence
--EVENT usually implies an occurrence of some importance and frequently one having antecedent cause.
the events following the assassination
[end quoting]
-- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/event
____________
When one refers to our Rapture "event," one refers to its "happening," or when it "takes place" (it, referring to the biblical word "harpagēsometha - G726 - 'will be caught away/up' / 'snatched' / 'raptured'" TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR, i.e. WHEN "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" takes place... and the "SO / IN THIS MANNER shall we ever be WITH [UNIONed-with] the Lord" (i.e. "the MARRIAGE" pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]"... not "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES [aka the earthly MK age]" to which "guests [PLURAL]" will have been "INVITED" all throughout the Tribulation-period years [Rev19:9 "having been invited [perfect participle] to..." which, as in the other texts showing said "feast / supper," those folks--tho "saved / righteous / blessed"--NEVER LIFT OFF THE EARTH... rather, it is the lost / unsaved / unbelievers / tares / wicked who, at THAT time, are "severed OUT-FROM among / OUT-FROM the MIDST" of the righteous / blessed [/saved persons]" who themselves stay put there on the earth at that time-slot, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 time-slot.
You see, the "righteous / blessed" i.e. the "still-living" saints who came to faith in/during/within the Trib yrs REMAIN ON THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age, aka the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES--commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth--joined by all saints of all time-periods who will have been "resurrected" BY that point and IN TIME FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age, no saints excluded])
____________
--"the One delivering us out-from the wrath coming"
--['put on... and for an helmet] the HOPE of salvation" (i.e. an eschatological salvation, per context)
--"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (this pertains to no one else but US)
--"TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"
--"and so shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (distinct from the "with [G3326]" word used of the PLURAL "virginS [kinda like what we call bridesmaids]" whom He is not "MARRYING"!! [<--THOSE "PLURAL VIRGINS" ain't US!]--Matt25:10, "they went in with [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" [not "the MARRIAGE" which pertains to the SINGULAR "Bride / Wife," see])
Merriam-Webster defines the word "event" this way:
[quoting]
1 a : something that happens : OCCURRENCE
b : a noteworthy happening
[...]
OCCURRENCE, EVENT, INCIDENT, EPISODE, CIRCUMSTANCE mean something that happens or takes place.
-- OCCURRENCE may apply to a happening without intent, volition, or plan.
an encounter that was a chance occurrence
--EVENT usually implies an occurrence of some importance and frequently one having antecedent cause.
the events following the assassination
[end quoting]
-- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/event
____________
When one refers to our Rapture "event," one refers to its "happening," or when it "takes place" (it, referring to the biblical word "harpagēsometha - G726 - 'will be caught away/up' / 'snatched' / 'raptured'" TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR, i.e. WHEN "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" takes place... and the "SO / IN THIS MANNER shall we ever be WITH [UNIONed-with] the Lord" (i.e. "the MARRIAGE" pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]"... not "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES [aka the earthly MK age]" to which "guests [PLURAL]" will have been "INVITED" all throughout the Tribulation-period years [Rev19:9 "having been invited [perfect participle] to..." which, as in the other texts showing said "feast / supper," those folks--tho "saved / righteous / blessed"--NEVER LIFT OFF THE EARTH... rather, it is the lost / unsaved / unbelievers / tares / wicked who, at THAT time, are "severed OUT-FROM among / OUT-FROM the MIDST" of the righteous / blessed [/saved persons]" who themselves stay put there on the earth at that time-slot, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 time-slot.
You see, the "righteous / blessed" i.e. the "still-living" saints who came to faith in/during/within the Trib yrs REMAIN ON THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age, aka the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES--commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth--joined by all saints of all time-periods who will have been "resurrected" BY that point and IN TIME FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age, no saints excluded])
____________
--"the One delivering us out-from the wrath coming"
--['put on... and for an helmet] the HOPE of salvation" (i.e. an eschatological salvation, per context)
--"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (this pertains to no one else but US)
--"TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"
--"and so shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (distinct from the "with [G3326]" word used of the PLURAL "virginS [kinda like what we call bridesmaids]" whom He is not "MARRYING"!! [<--THOSE "PLURAL VIRGINS" ain't US!]--Matt25:10, "they went in with [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" [not "the MARRIAGE" which pertains to the SINGULAR "Bride / Wife," see])
-
1
- Show all
He is preparing a place in Heaven where the wedding will take place - once we all receive our glorified bodies at the time of the (pre-trib) Rapture. Note the phrase "when I come again". He is referring to a future event. He will come in clouds at the pre-trib Rapture. Seven years later, we will return with Him to Earth and witness the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints and enter into the Millennial Reign.
He gathers their souls from Heaven and their bodies from Earth at the time of the pre-trib Rapture. The Trib Saints have souls in Heaven, but their bodies do not go up in any post-trib rapture.
He gathers their souls from Heaven and their bodies from Earth at the time of the pre-trib Rapture. The Trib Saints have souls in Heaven, but their bodies do not go up in any post-trib rapture.