The Heresy of Perfectionism

4runner · Jul 26, 2011

I am glad to see we have found some middle ground to agree on

FireOnTheAltar · Jul 26, 2011

Exactly.While I am not an advocate of sinless perfection, I have often asked the question several times but have yet to get answer from those who claim it is impossible to overcome sin in this life regarding the following verse:

1 Corinthians 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."

Here God promises to provide an escape when we are tempted to sin? If the answer was forgiveness for past, present and future sin then why has God promised us an escape before sinning?

zone · Jul 26, 2011

4runner said:

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again I shall judge my people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

once again, a dishonest and reckless handling of God's Word, which is taking His Name in vain.

you do not understand this passage, you do not understand this Book, you do not know the gospel.

4runner · Jul 26, 2011

zone said:

hahaha the funny thing, is I wrote no commentary on this passage at all. I think it is God's Word itself that you hate

foundthetruth · Jul 26, 2011

That passage refers to false teachers and prophets.

Consumed · Jul 26, 2011

FireOnTheAltar said:

I do agree, it's not a liscense to sin nor was it ever intended to be, however having taken the penalty of sin upon Himself for us when we stumble, and we all do during santification along the way, the blood requirement has been removed so we are not looking for two turtledoves or a lamb everyday. Jesus has strengthened us to overcome with the assurance of no condemnation. Yet if we choose to mock God with His grace, hmmmm. Romans makes it all so clear law from grace

zone · Jul 26, 2011

4runner said:

another reckless mishandling the scriptures, for which you will answer.

you are an heretic and have been rejected, yet you are still here, teaching another gospel, and so will be resisted.

proof texting to prove yourself to be some super spiritual demi-god (a perfectionist heretic), when this chapter is contrasting unregenerate men to saved christians.

but no matter how many times the truth is presented to you, you will corrupt it, for you ARE IN THE FLESH AND YOU DO NOT KNOW THE GOSPEL OF GRACE.

that is why you do not recognize the Lord's People. you are not of us.

so this chapter is posted not for you, but for the edification and comfort of the Lord's people who understand this writing of Paul's, the message he received directly frm the risen Christ.

Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12So then, brothers,d we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sonse of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becausef the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can beh against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.i 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

FireOnTheAltar · Jul 26, 2011

Consumed said:

While that is entirely true, it only pertains to sin after sin has already been committed. However, it does not answer the question.

Why is that God has promised to provide us an escape BEFORE sinning?

zone · Jul 26, 2011

FireOnTheAltar said:

Exactly.While I am not an advocate of sinless perfection, I have often asked the question several times but have yet to get answer from those who claim it is impossible to overcome sin in this life regarding the following verse:

1 Corinthians 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."

Here God promises to provide an escape when we are tempted to sin? If the answer was forgiveness for past, present and future sin then why has God promised us an escape before sinning?

a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.

4runner · Jul 26, 2011

My best response to Zone, is a response one of our new brothers expressed to all.

foundthetruth said:

foundthetruth · Jul 26, 2011

So what are you really trying to say?

I feel that this conversation has become so convoluted that the intended purpose of this forum is all but lost.

zone · Jul 26, 2011

4runner said:

what you think means nothing, for you are in the flesh.

zone · Jul 26, 2011

AnandaHya said:

he is misusing the word perfect which means COMPLETE, MATURE.

Only Christ is Perfect.

his logic says we are becoming gods by "allowing" Christ to "live perfectly" through us.

that's not the Gospel. that's unbiblical and heresy. quite popular today though.

zone · Jul 26, 2011

foundthetruth said:

OP

zone said:

The Heresy of Perfectionism

from R.C. Sproul Mar 14, 2011 Category: R.C. Sproul

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul Was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”
To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance.

The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog

........................................

4runner · Jul 26, 2011

zone said:

I see our resident Christian hater is loose and ion the attack again.

Where are you consumed, isnt this when you jump in and tell her to be more loving, or will you show that you are no more than a hypocrite trying to silence truth, by calling it unloving, while standing back enjoying Zones unprovoked attack on Jesus' true flock?

Digital_Angel_316 · Jul 26, 2011

THOUGHTS ON SPROUL - The Heavy Weight Calvinist:
Confusing - “gospel” “justification” "faith" and “soteriology"

(Again I say, most folks in this Forum do not have, or do not know - The Doctrine of
Justification):

In the book Justification in Perspective, N.T. Wright was invited to contribute to the last
essay-chapter titled “New Perspectives” where he makes this comment which some have
called “The King Kong of straw man fallacies”. Here’s what Wright wrote which “defenders
of Reformed orthodoxy” find so offensive:

“We are not justified by faith by believing in justification by faith. We are justified by faith
by believing in the gospel itself – in other words, that Jesus is Lord and that God raised
him from the dead.” Wright, “New Perspectives” (Under the heading “5: Justification” in
the essay.)

Well of course the charge is an offensive one. In one fell swoop N.T. Wright has accused
the Reformation Tradition (of which he is a part of, it is important to note) of raising 16th
century “doctrine” above scripture, above the faith and above the Gospel. This is a deadly
blow to the Reformers ego, and like any blow dealt to an ego, there was a backlash
reaction. And so R.C. Sproul (who one blogger refers to as being “at the top end of the
heavyweights” when it comes to Reformed theology) pushes back:

SPROUL
“To intimate that Protestant orthodoxy believes that we are justified by believing in
the doctrine of justification by faith is the king of all straw men. It is the Goliath of
scarecrow, the King Kong of straw man fallacies. In other words, it is a whopper. I am
aware of no theologian in the history of the Reformation tradition who believes or argues
that a person can be justified by believing in the doctrine of justification by faith. This is a
pure and simple distortion of the Reformed tradition.”
Reformation Theology: Tabletalk - Responding to N. T. Wright

But is that true? We have to look no further for our answer then to Mr. Heavyweight
himself (in case you missed it, that’s a reference to R.C. Sproul) in a little tract called
Justification by Faith Alone. In it he writes this:

SPROUL
“Since the Reformation the doctrine of sola fide has been the defining doctrine of
evangelical Christianity. It has functioned as a normative doctrine because it has been
understood as essential to the gospel itself. Without [the doctrine] sola fide one does not
have the gospel; and without the gospel one does not have the Christian faith. When an
ecclesiastical communion rejects [the doctrine] sola fide, as Rome did at the Council of
Trent, it ceases being a true church, no matter how orthodox it may be in other matters.”
– Justification by Faith Alone, p.12 (2010)

(This constitutes one of the fundamental areas of confusion among the traditionalists:
confusing the terms “gospel” “justification” and “soteriology“.)

Sproul places the true Gospel of Jesus Christ (by which he “is being saved” 1 Corinthians
15:1-4) under the subcategory of “other matters” (as if you could tuck the Gospel away
somewhere under the rubric of “other matters“?). God help him!:

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of
Christ and are turning to a different gospel – not that there is another one, but there are
some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. (Galatians 1:6-7)

Sproul has distorted the Gospel by confusing the sixteenth century doctrine of sola fide
with the Gospel Paul preaches in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and which he declares to be the true
Gospel being distorted here in Galatians 1:6-9.

In any case this entire quote from R.C. Sproul, an influential leader in the Protestant
church and author of such books as “Defending the Faith” and “The Consequences of
Ideas”, is very scary. In the quote above Sproul writes: “I am aware of no theologian in
the history of the Reformed tradition who believes or argues that a person can be
justified by believing in the doctrine of justification by faith.” Perhaps he should have a
good look in the mirror.

See also:
Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification, Baker, 1999 (ISBN 0-8010-5849-X)

zone · Jul 26, 2011

4runner said:

1 John 1:18
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

4runner · Jul 26, 2011

zone said:

So God isnt perfect Zone just mature?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Some people actually argue that Jesus didn't mean what He said. They say He never meant we should be perfect, but mature in the Lord. However Jesus clarifies His statement by saying ''even as the Father in Heaven is perfect''. So if what they say is true then that means the Father is not perfect, but simply mature. Also if we are fully mature in Christ the we would be perfect, for our perfection is in Christ. Jesus was, and still is commanding us to live perfectly before Him.

FireOnTheAltar · Jul 26, 2011

zone said:

I wouldn't expect someone who believes that the Holy Spirit no longer speaks directly to heart of a believer to understand the importance of my question anyways.

Ephesians 4:29-31

29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.

AnandaHya · Jul 26, 2011

foundthetruth said:

I have no clue.

I think God saves and keeps people from sin according to His will. We are not perfect upon salvation but we will be perfect in time as God makes us that way. not because we will it but because we submit to His will. I believe He will point out where we fall short but if we are too prideful to listen or think we are perfect already we will always babes in Christ still needing the milk and not ready for the meat and the ability to discern between good and evil.

but apparently thinking that God reveals my sins to me on a daily basis and shows how much I need to grow and asking Him to help me is considered delusional and placing myself above God's words by some and false because I do not state I am perfect yet but have faith that God will work in me and my life to make me so but I do not know when.

I don't know but I'm glad you have "found the Truth" I hope the truth is referring to Jesus salvation and work on the cross?

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