Do we know how Yeshua lived his life?

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homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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To each thier own, you go, have a great life. We do not see what each other says, standing in trust to God Father of it all in Yeshua, my savior unto Father Yahweh as is done by Son for us all to trust and be new and not harm others.
I agree to disagree, not understanding your motive(s) nor you understanding my motives.
Amen as God leads not me
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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doesn't the Torah condemn a man on the testimony of two or three witnesses - who are also men?

i don't think it is that they were blaspheming by saying a man was a sinner - they were blaspheming because they knew Jesus Christ was the Messiah, and they were willfully rejecting Him. they understood how to interpret the signs He gave them, but made themselves blind to them - while saying. "we see"

and so their hearts were darkened and they puffed themselves up with pride, until they could no longer see at all.
The Torah does say we are to judge your right. However it never gives us the right to condemn anyone on what we think as they were doing. Now I ask you this, what do the actions and thoughts of the Pharisees have to do with the life, teachings, and faith of Yeshua?
As for being angry, you have never seen me angry, and are doing the same thing as the Pharisees. So again, this isn't about them, it is about Yeshua. Thanks you for trying so hard to change the topic, now I am going to get back to the REAL reason I open this thread.
Oh before you say Torah does say to condemn, keep in mind, if a person isn't trust worthy, their testimony is to rejected. In the case of the Pharisees, their testimony in this case comes from one trying to hold on what conseived power they think they have. There for their testimony holds no authority.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Jhn 11:1A man named Lazarus was sick. He lived in Bethany with his sisters, Mary and Martha.
Jhn 11:2This is the Mary who later poured the expensive perfume on the Lord's feet and wiped them with her hair. Her brother, Lazarus, was sick.
Jhn 11:3So the two sisters sent a message to Jesus telling him, "Lord, your dear friend is very sick."
Jhn 11:4But when Jesus heard about it he said, "Lazarus's sickness will not end in death. No, it happened for the glory of God so that the Son of God will receive glory from this."
Jhn 11:5So although Jesus loved Martha, Mary, and Lazarus,
Jhn 11:6he stayed where he was for the next two days.
Jhn 11:7Finally, he said to his disciples, "Let's go back to Judea."

Some have used verse 4 to try and show that Yeshua was wrong, after all lazraus did die. Was that the end? As we willl see in a bit no that wasn't the end of the story.

Jhn 11:8But his disciples objected. "Rabbi," they said, "only a few days ago the people in Judea were trying to stone you. Are you going there again?"
Jhn 11:9Jesus replied, "There are twelve hours of daylight every day. During the day people can walk safely. They can see because they have the light of this world.
Jhn 11:10But at night there is danger of stumbling because they have no light."

Though it is true that not every day has 12 hours of daylight, and this has also been used to try to discredet the Word. We must keep in mind not every thing in the Word is ment to be taken literally. The point Yeshua was making is that we face danger in many of the actions we take in life. As anyone that has lived 20 years or longer understands, life is full of challenges, danger, and other hard ships. We face them as they come, and should never run from them. If we walk in faithfulness, and obedience, HaShem will protect us, guide us, and make sure we have all we need. He is not obligated to meet our wants.
Also we should make note that here we are also being told not to do things we know are not in our best interest. Like walking around in the dark, with no way to see what is in our path.

Jhn 11:11Then he said, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up."

As we should know, the Word uses the phrase sleep with our fathers to denote death.

Jhn 11:12The disciples said, "Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!"

Yet for some reason the disciples didn't get it.

Jhn 11:13They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died.

Jhn 11:14So he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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The Torah does say we are to judge your right. However it never gives us the right to condemn anyone on what we think as they were doing. Now I ask you this, what do the actions and thoughts of the Pharisees have to do with the life, teachings, and faith of Yeshua?
As for being angry, you have never seen me angry, and are doing the same thing as the Pharisees. So again, this isn't about them, it is about Yeshua. Thanks you for trying so hard to change the topic, now I am going to get back to the REAL reason I open this thread.
Oh before you say Torah does say to condemn, keep in mind, if a person isn't trust worthy, their testimony is to rejected. In the case of the Pharisees, their testimony in this case comes from one trying to hold on what conseived power they think they have. There for their testimony holds no authority.
so we are agreed, the Torah does command the ascribing of guilt/sin to someone on the testimony of two or three human witnesses - therefore you agree it is an incorrect statement to say someone is guilty of blasphemy if they call a man a sinner.

this is the case in an objective, abstract sense - your argument was faulty.

the case with Christ however is not that they condemned Him by saying He is a sinner, but something far worse.

to understand this you need to remember what sin they were ascribing to Him: the one He was accused of when Satan/Judas delivered Him to the sanhedrin. that sinwas blasphemy: they accused Him of claiming to be the Son of God, to be equal to God. which is not a false accusation in itself, but their argument was that He is not in fact equally God, that He is not Messiah.

so they are not condemning Him as a sinner ((there is no difference between calling someone guilty and condemning them)) - they are refusing to accept the testimony of the signs they received.

the conversation in John 9 is in this context, that the ultra-orthodox, ultra-Torah observant, ultra-knowledgeable Jews had seen everything they needed and far more to know Who Christ is, but they refused to accept it. so Christ sent an uneducated blind man to them to teach them to see and to know, and they absolutely despised it, taking great offense, thinking the man was "changing the subject" from the very important thing they were trying to do: to crucify the Son of God.


John 9:34​
They answered and said to him,
"You were completely born in sins,
and are you teaching us?"
And they cast him out.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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so we are agreed, the Torah does command the ascribing of guilt/sin to someone on the testimony of two or three human witnesses - therefore you agree it is an incorrect statement to say someone is guilty of blasphemy if they call a man a sinner.

this is the case in an objective, abstract sense - your argument was faulty.

the case with Christ however is not that they condemned Him by saying He is a sinner, but something far worse.

to understand this you need to remember what sin they were ascribing to Him: the one He was accused of when Satan/Judas delivered Him to the sanhedrin. that sinwas blasphemy: they accused Him of claiming to be the Son of God, to be equal to God. which is not a false accusation in itself, but their argument was that He is not in fact equally God, that He is not Messiah.

so they are not condemning Him as a sinner ((there is no difference between calling someone guilty and condemning them)) - they are refusing to accept the testimony of the signs they received.

the conversation in John 9 is in this context, that the ultra-orthodox, ultra-Torah observant, ultra-knowledgeable Jews had seen everything they needed and far more to know Who Christ is, but they refused to accept it. so Christ sent an uneducated blind man to them to teach them to see and to know, and they absolutely despised it, taking great offense, thinking the man was "changing the subject" from the very important thing they were trying to do: to crucify the Son of God.


John 9:34​
They answered and said to him,
"You were completely born in sins,
and are you teaching us?"
And they cast him out.
In Torah a judge has the right to pass judgment. After a trial. Then a sentence is passed down. Note that it is a judge.
If you note, no judge was mentioned. Don't get me wrong, the odds are one was there. However it was not a judge rather the people, standing in judgment. Again, still ok in Torah for some things. However, for a high crime, as in this case, one must be taken to face the Sanhidren.
When they had on conviction, yet called for a sentence they had no right to pass down. Then it became condemnation, not judgment. So yes, I stand by our understanding. Until some one with a better understanding comes along. Only HaShem can condemn anyone.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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Do we know how Yeshua lived his life?

A perfect sinless life.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,484
76
48
so we are agreed, the Torah does command the ascribing of guilt/sin to someone on the testimony of two or three human witnesses - therefore you agree it is an incorrect statement to say someone is guilty of blasphemy if they call a man a sinner.

this is the case in an objective, abstract sense - your argument was faulty.

the case with Christ however is not that they condemned Him by saying He is a sinner, but something far worse.

to understand this you need to remember what sin they were ascribing to Him: the one He was accused of when Satan/Judas delivered Him to the sanhedrin. that sinwas blasphemy: they accused Him of claiming to be the Son of God, to be equal to God. which is not a false accusation in itself, but their argument was that He is not in fact equally God, that He is not Messiah.

so they are not condemning Him as a sinner ((there is no difference between calling someone guilty and condemning them)) - they are refusing to accept the testimony of the signs they received.

the conversation in John 9 is in this context, that the ultra-orthodox, ultra-Torah observant, ultra-knowledgeable Jews had seen everything they needed and far more to know Who Christ is, but they refused to accept it. so Christ sent an uneducated blind man to them to teach them to see and to know, and they absolutely despised it, taking great offense, thinking the man was "changing the subject" from the very important thing they were trying to do: to crucify the Son of God.


John 9:34​
They answered and said to him,
"You were completely born in sins,
and are you teaching us?"
And they cast him out.
Now to answer the question I asked you. What has any of this to do with Yeshua's life, faith, and teachings? As no answer was forth coming from you, I will give you mine. After all to only look at the actions of one side can detract from the other.
Had there been a legal judgement, and sentencing, Yeshua would have had to face said sentence. Had he simply walked away from a legal conviction, He could not have been the perfect sacrifice for our sin. After all, to live a sin free life, one must always face up to all laws, even to the point of losing their life.
Understanding this, and looking past just the words, to find seek out every detail in them is important to understanding the leson placed before us.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Now to answer the question I asked you. What has any of this to do with Yeshua's life, faith, and teachings?
i think you overlooked the part where i said they demonstrate He is the Messiah and that the Messiah is God being manifest among men.

He sends those who say they are blind, yet see, to teach those who say they see, yet are blind. only God does this; only God gives sight to eyes that have never see: and Christ does this.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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to live a sin free life, one must always face up to all laws, even to the point of losing their life.
you have heard it said,
but I say unto you..


did Christ obey "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?

did David and his men sin when they ate the shewbread?
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Jhn 11:15And for your sakes, I'm glad I wasn't there, for now you will really believe. Come, let's go see him."

To some this is just a simple statement. However it is also telling. From this one may conclude the faith of the disciples faith is based on what they see. Leaving one to wonder, if their faith is based only this, should it be called faith? After all, faith believing in things unseen is it not?

Jhn 11:16Thomas, nicknamed the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, "Let's go, too—and die with Jesus."

The ever loved doubting Thomas. This was the first time we see he holds doubts, however as we all know it isn't the last. One thing most over look here is that Thomas gives voice to the fact that he is willing to follow Yeshua even if means going to face his death. How many of us today can say the same thing? An even better question, if you were placed on trial for being a follower of Yeshua, would there be enough evidents to convict you? Or would they simply find that you follow blindly after teachings not based in truth?

Jhn 11:17When Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was told that Lazarus had already been in his grave for four days.
Jhn 11:18Bethany was only a few miles down the road from Jerusalem,
Jhn 11:19and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss.
Jhn 11:20When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house.

Some say Mary didn't know Yeshua was there, thats why she stayed in the house. Others say she didn't go out to meet Him, because she was upset with Him for not coming in time to save Lazarus. We have nothing to say one way or the other, so any attempt to say this or that, is nothing more than speculation. However we are about to see a true example of faith unfold.

Jhn 11:21Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died.
Jhn 11:22But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask."

Without understanding what she had just said, (or so it seems) Martha has shown us her faith. You see, she openly states that HaShem will do whatever Yeshua ask. That's faith, in it's purest form. Yet, as we will see, she like many doesn't even see this in herself.

Jhn 11:23Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again."
Jhn 11:24"Yes," Martha said, "he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day."

Though she said this, one must ask how did she know this. As we know, there were 2 houses of thought on this, some said there was life after death, others said there wasn't. Yet when one looks at this in depth, we find they should have all understood this. After all it is found in the Tanakh.
Jhn 11:25Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying.
Jhn 11:26Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?"
Jhn 11:27"Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."
Jhn 11:28Then she returned to Mary. She called Mary aside from the mourners and told her, "The Teacher is here and wants to see you."
Jhn 11:29So Mary immediately went to him.

I ask now that you keep this part in mind for when we return to this. Please note that Martha didn't tell Mary in front of everyone there, rather pulled her aside to tell her. From this it becomes clear to any that look past the words, and at the action taken, that this was intended only for Mary. When we move on, it will become clear as to the result of this.
One more thing we should pass on here. In that time, some women were professional mourners. Even if they had no idea who had passed, they would show up and carry on as though it had been their own child. It wasn't out love of the person that was truly in mourning, it was in hopes of being being paid for helping the mourner mourn. Sounds nuts to us today, however it truly was a thing back then, and only women took part in this.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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i think you overlooked the part where i said they demonstrate He is the Messiah and that the Messiah is God being manifest among men.

He sends those who say they are blind, yet see, to teach those who say they see, yet are blind. only God does this; only God gives sight to eyes that have never see: and Christ does this.
True I seem to have over looked that. Sorry about that.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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you have heard it said,
but I say unto you..


did Christ obey "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?

did David and his men sin when they ate the shewbread?
Do you mind if I answer that when we get to that part? I hope not, as that is what I intend to do. For now all I will say is that the Torah places the sanctity of human life above it's own laws.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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For now all I will say is that the Torah places the sanctity of human life above it's own laws.
Yes, the law of Christ is greater than the law of the marriage covenant with Israel :)
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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I see this often but am not certain what it refers too, what is the law of Christ? @Rainrider

THank you.
To love as God loves as seen on that cross of Son going there willingly once for everyone. Then risen where new life gets given to all that beleive God in the s amazing grace. so much deeper than just forgiven, reconciled (2 Cor 5:17-20)
 
Jun 17, 2017
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Backing up a bit. I have said we should look past the words, and seek a deeper meaning.
When we read of 12 hours day and night. One may find this also speaking of one's spiritual life.
When one follows a teaching, they must not do so blindly. Always test everything with the word. If we simply take it as truth we walk in darkness. Never seeing the light.