Loss of salvation???
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I would suggest the question you ask can simply lead to all kinds of fears, doubts, and theological quagmires.
Instead, I think the issue is quite simple: Do you (I) today believe in Jesus Christ as our atoning sacrifice?
Yes = heaven
No = hell
Deep Holy Spirit assurance results from true heart belief in Jesus Christ, not from theological beliefs.
Instead, I think the issue is quite simple: Do you (I) today believe in Jesus Christ as our atoning sacrifice?
Yes = heaven
No = hell
Deep Holy Spirit assurance results from true heart belief in Jesus Christ, not from theological beliefs.
2 Timothy 2:11-13 KJV — It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Many have denied that this proves sliding into disbelief does not nullify salvation. The belief that one can lose his salvation is purely rooted in works-based salvation. There is no getting around that. The horrid taint of salvation by works thinking corrupts many a professing believers theology out there. The Greek is all too clear on Paul's meaning. That so many fail to understand these verses only shines a spotlight on the weaknesses of our English translations and/or the lack of critical reading comprehension skills taught by public education.
MM
Many have denied that this proves sliding into disbelief does not nullify salvation. The belief that one can lose his salvation is purely rooted in works-based salvation. There is no getting around that. The horrid taint of salvation by works thinking corrupts many a professing believers theology out there. The Greek is all too clear on Paul's meaning. That so many fail to understand these verses only shines a spotlight on the weaknesses of our English translations and/or the lack of critical reading comprehension skills taught by public education.
MM
So do you believe then that the person who has truly been born again and has believed -- is then able to go back into unbelief, and even outrightly deny God, and (if he wants to) can curse and swear at God, and say that he does not want into God's heaven -- but that in the end God will still take him into heaven?
They may denounce faith at some point.
But that will not undo the faith's effect that took place when he believed in Jesus.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me,
but raise it up on the last day. NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none
of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:39.
But that will not undo the faith's effect that took place when he believed in Jesus.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me,
but raise it up on the last day. NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none
of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:39.
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I believe that a person can fall away from the Lord.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away
from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb,
“A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
No doubt you have an interpretation of the quotation above.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away
from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb,
“A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
No doubt you have an interpretation of the quotation above.
Psalms 103:1-22 (NLTSE)
1Let all that I am praise the LORD;
with my whole heart, I will praise his holy name.
2Let all that I am praise the LORD;
may I never forget the good things he does for me.
3He forgives all my sins
and heals all my diseases.
4He redeems me from death
and crowns me with love and tender mercies.
5He fills my life with good things.
My youth is renewed like the eagle's!
6The LORD gives righteousness
and justice to all who are treated unfairly.
7He revealed his character to Moses
and his deeds to the people of Israel.
8The LORD is compassionate and merciful,
slow to get angry and filled with unfailing love.
9He will not constantly accuse us,
nor remain angry forever.
10He does not punish us for all our sins;
he does not deal harshly with us, as we deserve.
11For his unfailing love toward those who fear him
is as great as the height of the heavens above the earth.
12He has removed our sins as far from us
as the east is from the west.
13The LORD is like a father to his children,
tender and compassionate to those who fear him.
14For he knows how weak we are;
he remembers we are only dust.
15Our days on earth are like grass;
like wildflowers, we bloom and die.
16The wind blows, and we are gone–
as though we had never been here.
17But the love of the LORD remains forever
with those who fear him.
His salvation extends to the children's children
18of those who are faithful to his covenant,
of those who obey his commandments!
19The LORD has made the heavens his throne;
from there he rules over everything.
20Praise the LORD, you angels,
you mighty ones who carry out his plans,
listening for each of his commands.
21Yes, praise the LORD, you armies of angels
who serve him and do his will!
22Praise the LORD, everything he has created,
everything in all his kingdom.
Let all that I am praise the LORD.
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I guess the question that makes everyone wonder is how do you know your saved, this can lead to all sorts of questions and a whole lot of doubt as well acting as if a person had the authority of God to decide who is and who isn't.
We shouldn't go there as people get trial and tribs,. In all sorts of ways
Well a few very important things to consider is
Do you have peace ?
Àre.you content
Do you receive communion
On the flip side are you living in sin do you hate a lot
Is your mind at peace
Well it may be a saved person can also be punished on earth to
But those who show constant sings of condemning arguing and hating and evening bringing the lords word into disrepute,.the chances are they where given a chance but sadly they more than likely got handed over to a retribute mind.
But we shouldn't forget that also the lord can do what ever he wants in the form of punishment, but to automatically assume a saved person can be unsaved would be foolish, because really the biggest risk is making people doubt there faith.
That's really the devil's scheme
We should rather seek to help rather than hinder as also God can punish anyone however he seems fit.
The reality is God knows are past present and future.
Peace and grace in the lord.
We shouldn't go there as people get trial and tribs,. In all sorts of ways
Well a few very important things to consider is
Do you have peace ?
Àre.you content
Do you receive communion
On the flip side are you living in sin do you hate a lot
Is your mind at peace
Well it may be a saved person can also be punished on earth to
But those who show constant sings of condemning arguing and hating and evening bringing the lords word into disrepute,.the chances are they where given a chance but sadly they more than likely got handed over to a retribute mind.
But we shouldn't forget that also the lord can do what ever he wants in the form of punishment, but to automatically assume a saved person can be unsaved would be foolish, because really the biggest risk is making people doubt there faith.
That's really the devil's scheme
We should rather seek to help rather than hinder as also God can punish anyone however he seems fit.
The reality is God knows are past present and future.
Peace and grace in the lord.
You've, so far, ignored answering my post #2417, but I will answer this current post for you from scripture.
When asking about another's belief, as if what they stated as their belief were opposed to scripture, when in fact it stands in contrast to Western dogmas that are actually creations of socially engineered theologies, I'd have to say that I stated in my own words what scripture says:
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
We are His body. Who among us denies any part of his own body, and yet far too many picture Christ cutting off His own finger, or toe...
That one sentence from 2 Timothy packs an enormous amount of information one can glean from a systematic study on this topic, but you seem to have a problem with that system of study on the basis of something that you never did answer in relation to my inquiry in that other post.
So, yes, one can even go into outright denial for faith and belief in the Lord and still be saved. I hope that's clear enough.
So, if you disagree, in spite of what's written in scripture and quoted here in this post, what's your problem with the saved Christ-denier still being saved? Does it make you jealous, resentful...what? After all, loss of genuine salvation on the basis of failures on our part, that inevitably makes salvation works-based, which then leads to the conclusion that we're ALL lost this very moment.
We ALL still sin, and rejection is a sin to the one who was once saved. Is denial any worse than the sins you commit daily? If so, then how do you gauge that in order to form that graph in your mind that differentiates between saved and unsaved for those who were truly believed at some point in their lives?
Can you draw that graph for us that names the sins below the threshold of salvation between saved and unsaved? Please give a graphic representation that delineates between the various sins so that we can all see which ones you believe causes the loss of salvation and those don't nullify salvation.
Some like to point at Christ's denial of those who denied Him in this life. Well, given the loose, tawdry, weak and beggarly understanding of most professing believers because of all their failures to read scripture for themselves and to do systematic study, thus exercising proper responsibility for what they choose to believe, they go along with one or more of those whelps who stand behind the pulpits of their pathetic churchianity organizations. Most are generally taught that Christ's denial of any one is in reference to salvation rather than reward. We all may as well, then, expect to see Peter burning in the pits of Hell right beside us.
Oh, but then they point out how Peter wept in repentance for his denial, and even chose his method of execution as a demonstration for his dedication TO Christ. Where does scripture even portray that Peter lost his salvation even for those moments or hours? Do you now see the hypocrisy behind the belief of denial being the loss of genuine salvation?
My friend, going along with the crowd as a crowd-pleaser by parroting what they all want to hear, that does indeed make one part of the in-crowd. Daring to believe scripture, which is generally ignored by those who intentionally go along with what the bandwagoneers believe, that ends up getting him cast off the bandwagons of social religions, thus bruising the rump, only to get back up and preach to yet another bandwagon of theological marauders to see if at least some will jump off those bandwagons and join in ministry to others to get them back into the scriptures.
I'm not saved this very moment and beyond because of my efforts to retain what was bestowed upon me by unearned, unmerited favor because of my faith willingly placed upon Christ. If we can earn the continuance of our salvation on the basis of our merits, then we were saved by our own merits, which many of us understands is not at all true. Salvation is not bi-polar; meaning that it is unmerited favor looking backward, but then changes polar properties looking to the future whereby it's THEN on the basis of our own merits and efforts. Do you now see the dichotomy in the belief for loss of genuine salvation?
This should cause the Roman Catholic religion's cathedrals to empty out from supporters, but they will continue the narrative of works-based salvation in their beliefs because of their false belief in salvation lost dare they commit what they call a "mortal sin." It's a strangely natural inclination rooted in human pride to think that we MUST contribute at least SOMETHING for our salvation to be true and intact. How pathetic our flesh really is, but most choose to cater to it, caressing it with acquiescence, even though we are commanded to deny the flesh.
Generally speaking, believe whatever you want, engaging the belief that one must continue in efforts to earn and retain salvation if you want. That sets well with all those bandwagoneers out there. They will caudle and hug you with affection and genuine fleshly love for being a part of their club. Remember, however, that the appeal and warm fuzzies derived from such love is fleshly, not spiritual.
MM
When asking about another's belief, as if what they stated as their belief were opposed to scripture, when in fact it stands in contrast to Western dogmas that are actually creations of socially engineered theologies, I'd have to say that I stated in my own words what scripture says:
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
We are His body. Who among us denies any part of his own body, and yet far too many picture Christ cutting off His own finger, or toe...
That one sentence from 2 Timothy packs an enormous amount of information one can glean from a systematic study on this topic, but you seem to have a problem with that system of study on the basis of something that you never did answer in relation to my inquiry in that other post.
So, yes, one can even go into outright denial for faith and belief in the Lord and still be saved. I hope that's clear enough.
So, if you disagree, in spite of what's written in scripture and quoted here in this post, what's your problem with the saved Christ-denier still being saved? Does it make you jealous, resentful...what? After all, loss of genuine salvation on the basis of failures on our part, that inevitably makes salvation works-based, which then leads to the conclusion that we're ALL lost this very moment.
We ALL still sin, and rejection is a sin to the one who was once saved. Is denial any worse than the sins you commit daily? If so, then how do you gauge that in order to form that graph in your mind that differentiates between saved and unsaved for those who were truly believed at some point in their lives?
Can you draw that graph for us that names the sins below the threshold of salvation between saved and unsaved? Please give a graphic representation that delineates between the various sins so that we can all see which ones you believe causes the loss of salvation and those don't nullify salvation.
Some like to point at Christ's denial of those who denied Him in this life. Well, given the loose, tawdry, weak and beggarly understanding of most professing believers because of all their failures to read scripture for themselves and to do systematic study, thus exercising proper responsibility for what they choose to believe, they go along with one or more of those whelps who stand behind the pulpits of their pathetic churchianity organizations. Most are generally taught that Christ's denial of any one is in reference to salvation rather than reward. We all may as well, then, expect to see Peter burning in the pits of Hell right beside us.
Oh, but then they point out how Peter wept in repentance for his denial, and even chose his method of execution as a demonstration for his dedication TO Christ. Where does scripture even portray that Peter lost his salvation even for those moments or hours? Do you now see the hypocrisy behind the belief of denial being the loss of genuine salvation?
My friend, going along with the crowd as a crowd-pleaser by parroting what they all want to hear, that does indeed make one part of the in-crowd. Daring to believe scripture, which is generally ignored by those who intentionally go along with what the bandwagoneers believe, that ends up getting him cast off the bandwagons of social religions, thus bruising the rump, only to get back up and preach to yet another bandwagon of theological marauders to see if at least some will jump off those bandwagons and join in ministry to others to get them back into the scriptures.
I'm not saved this very moment and beyond because of my efforts to retain what was bestowed upon me by unearned, unmerited favor because of my faith willingly placed upon Christ. If we can earn the continuance of our salvation on the basis of our merits, then we were saved by our own merits, which many of us understands is not at all true. Salvation is not bi-polar; meaning that it is unmerited favor looking backward, but then changes polar properties looking to the future whereby it's THEN on the basis of our own merits and efforts. Do you now see the dichotomy in the belief for loss of genuine salvation?
This should cause the Roman Catholic religion's cathedrals to empty out from supporters, but they will continue the narrative of works-based salvation in their beliefs because of their false belief in salvation lost dare they commit what they call a "mortal sin." It's a strangely natural inclination rooted in human pride to think that we MUST contribute at least SOMETHING for our salvation to be true and intact. How pathetic our flesh really is, but most choose to cater to it, caressing it with acquiescence, even though we are commanded to deny the flesh.
Generally speaking, believe whatever you want, engaging the belief that one must continue in efforts to earn and retain salvation if you want. That sets well with all those bandwagoneers out there. They will caudle and hug you with affection and genuine fleshly love for being a part of their club. Remember, however, that the appeal and warm fuzzies derived from such love is fleshly, not spiritual.
MM
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Additionally, to answer your question precisely, no. I have yet to meet someone who truly believed at one point in the past, then declares unbelief. I also could not prove that such a one had lost their salvation on the basis of their denials of Christ. Taking their temperature, doing a CAT scan...nothing will prove loss of salvation, but the many out there who think they know of such, they must think themselves blessed with deific powers of insight into the hearts of men and that Lamb's Book of Life, even sharing His Throne with Him.
I'm not so crass and disrespectful of the Lord, but He has big Shoulders and has taken on far worse and bigger things...
MM
I'm not so crass and disrespectful of the Lord, but He has big Shoulders and has taken on far worse and bigger things...
MM
Then we have the judgmental suckers out there who will declare the loss of salvation by those who later deny faith in Christ after having been genuinely saved in the past. They are casting even greater shadows upon the character of Christ in the minds of those ignorant enough to believe what they are saying. Never mind that they have no basis for that. Their ignorance is solidified even moreso because of the lack of any and all mention of Peter ever having lost his salvation after denying Christ three times in one night.
This opens up such a horrid can of theological worms... I mean, where does scripture speak of regaining salvation? Those clown operations out there who dare call themselves a "church" that teach "rededication" as a form of regaining salvation, they are worthy of whatever the Lord chooses to pour out upon them. They are authorities only unto themselves because they certainy have not placed themselves under the authority of scripture.
MM
This opens up such a horrid can of theological worms... I mean, where does scripture speak of regaining salvation? Those clown operations out there who dare call themselves a "church" that teach "rededication" as a form of regaining salvation, they are worthy of whatever the Lord chooses to pour out upon them. They are authorities only unto themselves because they certainy have not placed themselves under the authority of scripture.
MM
I care little about systematic theology and what it says about Scripture. I do care deeply about what the text itself says, and I care even more/most about Jesus Christ and having a deep personal relationship with Him: living in joy, peace, and power over sin in daily life!
I look for what the text says: I refuse to superimpose existing doctrine upon other texts. If one says he has a doctrine, I really don't care about that unless there is a text that says that truth clearly and unequivocally.
So you have mentioned II Timothy 2:13 several times: it says:
εἰ ἀπιστοῦμεν ἐκεῖνος πιστὸς μένει ἀρνήσασθαι γὰρ ἑαυτὸν οὐ δύναται
I have looked at various English translations, and I have looked here at the Greek text itself, and the text does not say that a person who does not have faith in God is saved and going to heaven. If says that if we do not have faith, God still remains having faith.
If you have a text that says that a person who is not believing in God is saved/going to heaven, I would be interested in seeing the text.
I look for what the text says: I refuse to superimpose existing doctrine upon other texts. If one says he has a doctrine, I really don't care about that unless there is a text that says that truth clearly and unequivocally.
So you have mentioned II Timothy 2:13 several times: it says:
εἰ ἀπιστοῦμεν ἐκεῖνος πιστὸς μένει ἀρνήσασθαι γὰρ ἑαυτὸν οὐ δύναται
I have looked at various English translations, and I have looked here at the Greek text itself, and the text does not say that a person who does not have faith in God is saved and going to heaven. If says that if we do not have faith, God still remains having faith.
If you have a text that says that a person who is not believing in God is saved/going to heaven, I would be interested in seeing the text.
I have a brother-in-law who clearly professed faith in Jesus Christ, and his life/living seemed to verify that he was a believer. Now he outrightly denies Jesus and has no interest in Him. I conclude that the basis of my brother-in-law's salvation is not if/when he had faith (I do not need to stand as a "judge" on his former salvation), but is he today deeply believing in Jesus as his Saviour, Friend, and Lord (and his sin-bearer). He says he does not believe, and thus I am praying/seeking/yearning for him to put his faith into our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is how I approach the situation of my brother-in-law.
This is how I approach the situation of my brother-in-law.
You seem to be saying that I believe "one must continue in efforts to earn and retain salvation." I am not sure what you mean here . . .?
If you mean that I believe that one must do works to stay saved, then I will just clarify that is not what I believe. I believe salvation is clearly and always from start to finish on the basis of God's grace acting on our hearts and us responding in faith (through the Spirit of God).
What I do believe about works is that they are important and are a blessing to the Christian life. I will clearly confirm that I do believe that works are an important part of living for the Kingdom of God in an evil and dark world. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe.
If you mean that I believe that one must do works to stay saved, then I will just clarify that is not what I believe. I believe salvation is clearly and always from start to finish on the basis of God's grace acting on our hearts and us responding in faith (through the Spirit of God).
What I do believe about works is that they are important and are a blessing to the Christian life. I will clearly confirm that I do believe that works are an important part of living for the Kingdom of God in an evil and dark world. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe.
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Salvation is not based on sins or how much or how little one is sinning. Paul very clearly says it is "not by works." Salvation is by grace through faith. Hence I don't know how/why a graph of different types of sins would be helpful or needed. When one is a believer in Jesus Christ, every sin and all sins are forgiven no matter the number, the severity, or the length! PTL! HALLELUJAH!
