Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

@Cameron143 You cannot believe for them.

We are free to choose Christ......And You should be witnessing that fact to them every minute of the day.


Equal Privilege, equal opportunity for ALL.

He died for us, ANYONE can believe/trust in Him for their salvation.

Please, please don't tell them that you can believe for them!.....It is their personal choice.

Do you even read my posts?
No one is free of their nature. All choices are governed by the Spirit or the flesh. You believe people people acting in the flesh do godly things. I don't believe that's possible.

 

[Kroogz]

Then the man and his wife heard the voice of the LORD God walking
in the garden in the breeze of the day, and they hid themselves from
the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Genesis 3:8

I said with an inquiring mind.

Not a calvie mind.

 

[Kroogz]

Do you even read my posts?
No one is free of their nature. All choices are governed by the Spirit or the flesh. You believe people people acting in the flesh do godly things. I don't believe that's possible.

And You don't read mine.

We are depraved.......GOD DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

 

[BillyBob]

Has God already saved all His people? Sometimes when I read 2 Tim 1:9 I am convinced that this may be true. Notice that everything is spoken of in the past tense! He does not say God will save us, but rather God has saved us!
When we turn to Christ it is because of the HS changing or heart to believe and put our trust in the work of our savior rather than ourself. It results in a love for Him and knowing that He paid the price and we are forgiven.
But perhaps we were saved long before this took place. Maybe we only realize this after the work of the HS.

 

[Cameron143]

And You don't read mine.

We are depraved.......GOD DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

What did God do about our depravity? He made a way for us to be reconciled to Himself, but that doesn't change our hearts, and therefore, our natures until He takes out our stony hearts and gives us hearts of flesh.

 

[Magenta]

I said with an inquiring mind.

Not a calvie mind.

Why would anyone listen to a false accuser like you who can't even get the first chapters of the Bible right?

 

[Magenta]

What did God do about our depravity? He made a way for us to be reconciled to Himself, but that doesn't change
our hearts, and therefore, our natures until He takes out our stony hearts and gives us hearts of flesh.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" refers to those who recognize
their spiritual poverty and dependence on God, which by definition excludes free willers.

 

[lrs68]

Now, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. If God allows everyone to be themselves, how come it He who is complete control of man's ways? Why did God cut Pharaoh off at the knees after he did such a dismal job of hardening his own heart? Why did God pour gasoline on an open fire? After God imposed Himself upon Pharaoh, he had zero chance to be himself and completely control his own eternal destiny. And, yet, you FWwers insist that God wants everyone to be saved. He wants no one to perish!

If you had read the entire Egypt story you can easily see the new Pharaoh who did not know Joseph and hated the Hebrew people was the same person throughout the entire episode even to his death. I really don't think you know a whole lot about this story at all. You can't even get Pharaoh correct.

 

[lrs68]

Since that's the case and God had to "eventually" impose his will upon Pharaoh to achieve his purpose, then there's no way you can logically posit from the scriptures that God didn't do that with Pharaoh sooner rather than later. After all, Ps 105:25 explicitly teaches that God turned the hearts of all Egyptians to hate the Hebrews.

I can because the Bible tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and later said God permanently hardened Pharaohs heart. It's in the correct order as the Spirit of God wanted us to read it.

 

[HeIsHere]

I am confident that the Gospel message is preached to those kids.( He never fails to convict/convince us of His Cross.)

Behind closed doors , Every calvie here tries to convince the ones they love to trust Christ.

But, in the debate realm, they try to convince us of their theology.

Interesting.

"Stealth Calvinism" ... apparently it is a real thing.

But if he cannot say Jesus died for you... the Gospel is completely void of any real application to the individual.

 

[HeIsHere]

You should apply for a job at spellcheck.

And you don't understand the reformed reason on soteriology. It is evident from your posts, as it is with many. Your use of the word...selection...is simply one example.

Actually I was thinking of linguistics... fascinating field.

You know this argument of "you don't understand" reformed reasoning on the plan of salvation does not really help your position at all.
It seems to imply a special "gnosis"

But maybe the reality is people cannot understand it because it is not biblical and over complicated.

After Paul did say.... "Be careful, do not stray from the simplicity of the Gospel!" (2 Corinthians 11:3)

 

[lrs68]

Has God already saved all His people? Sometimes when I read 2 Tim 1:9 I am convinced that this may be true. Notice that everything is spoken of in the past tense! He does not say God will save us, but rather God has saved us!

Paul's Letters were written to established churches that after he began continued onward past his own death. So Paul is writing to current Believers. And when you write to someone that has already been saved and still saved it should be written in the [past tense].

What we should never forget is that each Letter was to a current Church. So Paul is addressing the specific Church not the entire body of Believers. But for anyone saved reading these Letters, it will also be [Past Tense] because you are already saved.

 

[Magenta]

As You sent Me into the world, I have also sent them into the world. For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified
by the truth. I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message.

 

[Cameron143]

Actually I was thinking of linguistics... fascinating field.

You know this argument of "you don't understand" reformed reasoning on the plan of salvation does not really help your position at all.
It seems to imply a special "gnosis"

But maybe the reality is people cannot understand it because it is not biblical and over complicated.

After Paul did say.... "Be careful, do not stray from the simplicity of the Gospel!" (2 Corinthians 11:3)

So...I say you don't understand, show how you do not understand, but you don't understand? Hmmmm.

 

[BillyBob]

Has God already saved all His people? Sometimes when I read 2 Tim 1:9 I am convinced that this may be true. Notice that everything is spoken of in the past tense! He does not say God will save us, but rather God has saved us!
When we turn to Christ it is because of the HS changing or heart to believe and put our trust in the work of our savior rather than ourself. It results in a love for Him and knowing that He paid the price and we are forgiven.
But perhaps we were saved long before this took place. Maybe we only realize this after the work of the HS.

Paul's Letters were written to established churches that after he began continued onward past his own death. So Paul is writing to current Believers. And when you write to someone that has already been saved and still saved it should be written in the [past tense].

What we should never forget is that each Letter was to a current Church. So Paul is addressing the specific Church not the entire body of Believers. But for anyone saved reading these Letters, it will also be [Past Tense] because you are already saved.

Perhaps what you are saying is true. However, he not only speaks of us being saved in the past - but goes one step further by saying it took place before time began. Plus, I believe his word is to instruct the entire body of Believers
Does this imply that our being saved was settled even before we were born, even though it did not happen until later? Food for thought!

 

[studier]

And for your info Rom 3 is best understood in the context of the two preceding chapters -- you know...like chapter 1 that teaches that all who didn't want to retain God in their knowledge turned to seeking gods of their own making!

I'm pretty geared up on Rom1-3 at the moment if you'd like to go through it. Be sure to consider the back-and-forth Paul is doing re: men of Faith and unrighteous men before he deals with God's perspective from perfection when looking at men under sin in and under law in Rom3:9-19 and His solution in Christ thereafter.

 

[lrs68]

Perhaps what you are saying is true. However, he not only speaks of us being saved in the past - but goes one step further by saying it took place before time began. Plus, I believe his word is to instruct the entire body of Believers
Does this imply that our being saved was settled even before we were born, even though it did not happen until later? Food for thought!

Let's just look at the pattern we see here.

Genesis 6 shows us that God looks at all humans and can only find ONE person, Noah, God would describe as Righteous.

This is fascinating because Noah's great great great Grandfather is Enoch and Enoch's son Methuselah and Noah's dad Lamech were alive [and we believe they went to Heaven] but God didn't mention their names only Noah's name.

But we go 3 more generations and we have Noah's great great great Grandson Abram [Abraham] and now God decides to create a specific people called the Hebrew People.

The Hebrew People, as long as they did their best to obey the Law and fulfill the Sacrifice requirements were guaranteed Eternal Salvation that would happen when Shiloh [the Messiah] would come.

Then the Shiloh [Messiah] comes and now EVERYONE can be saved.

So it went from Adam to Noah that EVERYONE could be saved, then it was the Hebrew People and those Gentiles who be Proselytized, and now it's back to EVERYONE can be saved.

Our problem is we read the word FOREKNEW and believe it means Selection rather than thinking in terms of God being Omnipotent [ALL KNOWING].

Yes, God knew who would be saved. God knew who would be conformed to Jesus Christ. God knows Everything. But it doesn't say anywhere that God chose this people for Hell or this people for Heaven. It literally doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible. We have became Mathematicians and did that ourselves. We have put words into the Bible that do not exist anywhere. We have ADDED to the Bible which God commands us not to ever do.

 

[studier]

I don't know if God works on every heart or the extent to which He does or does not. I do know that when God saves an individual, it begins there.
I'm not sure what you want answered concerning God's authority. My kids understand that they will give an account before God one day, as we all will.
You do seem to recognize that different people have different responses to the gospel and that this may have more to do with the actions of God, and not simply the disposition of man. To what do you attribute the different responses?

Re: your last 2 sentences, mostly I think God has made Himself clear to all men and at this point wherever He has made His Son clear, which is most of the world by this time and for quite some time, men are aware of Jesus Christ and His Spirit is working in the world to convince anyone who's interested, so He's available to them. I think the problem is in men and they have the ability to understand the issue and make a choice. For varied reasons within them, many don't choose to believe.

This is why I asked you about your kids whom you seem to know quite well. I think if we can drill down deep enough and someone is willing to answer and discuss honestly as best they can, we will find in many, especially but not exclusively the younger, some sense of desire for autonomy likely based in something in the natural they see some value in. Of course, there are other issues in other people, like anger or resentment at Him for things that have happened or are happening, but the Romans1 issue of rejecting Him is stated quite clearly as seeing no value in having Him.

Faith in part is submission. This latter word was the original failure in Faith. Nothing has changed. As I said, Jesus the One with all authority in Heaven and on earth in John4 makes it emphatically clear what and whom God is looking for in the world. Even in the angelic realm, it's the same issue re: submission.

 

[BillyBob]

Yes, God knew who would be saved. God knew who would be conformed to Jesus Christ. God knows Everything. But it doesn't say anywhere that God chose this people for Hell or this people for Heaven.

Sounds like you're saying two different things to me!

 

[Cameron143]

Re: your last 2 sentences, mostly I think God has made Himself clear to all men and at this point wherever He has made His Son clear, which is most of the world by this time and for quite some time, men are aware of Jesus Christ and His Spirit is working in the world to convince anyone who's interested, so He's available to them. I think the problem is in men and they have the ability to understand the issue and make a choice. For varied reasons within them, many don't choose to believe.

This is why I asked you about your kids whom you seem to know quite well. I think if we can drill down deep enough and someone is willing to answer and discuss honestly as best they can, we will find in many, especially but not exclusively the younger, some sense of desire for autonomy likely based in something in the natural they see some value in. Of course, there are other issues in other people, like anger or resentment at Him for things that have happened or are happening, but the Romans1 issue of rejecting Him is stated quite clearly as seeing no value in having Him.

Faith in part is submission. This latter word was the original failure in Faith. Nothing has changed. As I said, Jesus the One with all authority in Heaven and on earth in John4 makes it emphatically clear what and whom God is looking for in the world. Even in the angelic realm, it's the same issue re: submission.

I do believe it is generally possible to drill down and identify reasons that individuals do not submit to the authority of God. But learning the cause and reasoning through arguments that address the issue never gets to the root of the real problem: that man in a natural and fallen estate is unable, in and of himself, to effect the change in himself necessary to respond salvationally. Salvation requires an initial action by God to impart life and an altered heart to enable the ability to seek God with all one's heart.