Are the dead dead or do they keep on liveing?..............

peacefulbeliever · Mar 1, 2012

I'm not sure what is meant by "soul sleep doctrine" but if your talking about death being called "sleep"; that is true and it is called "sleep" because we will resurrect or "wake" when Christ returns.
Now about the parable in Luke 16:19-31. It is a parable (story which is told to teach a lesson) and it is addressed to the Pharisees (v.14). The Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediately upon death. This parable does not say that Jesus believed this - Jesus uses this parable to condemn the Pharisees and to catch them in their own erroneous beliefs. Don't you think that Jesus had great depth of learning from the OT scriptures that he knew "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten (they have no memory) Also their love, and their hatred and their envy is now perished. . . . " Jesus would not have contradicted the word of God taught in the OT.

IMINJC · Mar 1, 2012

PEACEFULBELIEVER

YOU SAID:

"Now about the parable in Luke 16:19-31. It is a parable"

It can't be or else Jesus is a Liar...no way to get around that fact. So your opinion of what you think happens to the soul of a person when he dies must be adjusted.

By the way...the dead doesn't know anything..that's because the dead is the lifeless body that your spirit vacates at the point of death. (Ever heard of the phrase "Gave Up The Ghost?") The body can't live without the spirit..so its dead and it knows nothing and it sees corruption over time.

Everything must return from wherever it came from. Ice to water, Man's body to dust, and Man's spirit back to God...because thats where it came from...God breathed the breath of life into the body and thats when it became a living soul.

peacefulbeliever · Mar 1, 2012

IMINJC said:

I think I have been saying all along that when God breathed the breath of life into the body that he became a living soul which stands to reason that breath life = living soul.

Every man has soul/spirit life called the "spirit of man" but not all men have eternal life, holy spirit. The "spirit of man" (the thoughts, emotions, those things that make up the mind and heart of a man) and the "soul of man" (breath life) end at death - the spirit that God gives via the new birth, goes back to God - then scripture is silent.

If we are immediately judged upon death; why have a resurrection and a judgment time for the just and unjust - since some say it's already been done?

In Christ. . . .

krisbrian · Mar 1, 2012

peacefulbeliever said:

We are not immediately judged after death, but everyone goes to their proper place where we await judgment. "Hell" in the story of the rich man and Lazarus means "Hades"....it is not the "lake of fire" which is "Gehenna". Its not THE hell because judgment hasnt come yet. I guess its sort of like when you are charged with a crime, you are arrested and put in jail, but you haven't faced the judge yet.

IMINJC · Mar 1, 2012

Peacefulbeliever

YOU SAID: "If we are immediately judged upon death; why have a resurrection and a judgment time for the just and unjust - since some say it's already been done?"

I have noticed that some assume that since Jesus revealed the existence of this place of torment for the unrighteous souls and the place of comfort, or "Paradise" for the righteous souls, that this means judgement and rewards have been issued. This is not the case..this was the state of departed souls before the death burrial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The body sleeps..not the Soul:

Matthew 27:52
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Even though this place was a paradise it was still not heaven and God did not reside there. This is why it was so closely located to the place of torment. These souls were held captive there by Satan, because he still held the keys of death, hell and the grave. One had to descend in order to get to this place:

EPESIANS 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

This is the place Jesus descended to when He "Gave Up The Ghost" on the cross. This is how Jesus was able to promise the theif that "Today" you will be with me in Paradise.

Jesus descended to the Paradise and preached to those souls how His blood had now set them free: 1 Peter 3:18-19

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

In doing so he took the keys of death, hell, and the grave from Satan: Collossians 2:15
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Jesus led all of these righteous souls out of that place and took them to heaven with Him. This is why the scripture says: Ephesians 4:8
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

This is also why known dead righteous souls were seen walking the streets of Jerusalem after the resurrection. (Matthew 27:52)

The place of torment (hell) is still there right now as we speak. The unrighteous souls at death continue to descend to that place. I imagine they can still look across and see paradise, only now its empty "Praise Jesus!" They will remain there until The Great White Throne Judgement of Christ. Hell is just a holding tank of sorts, it and the souls that are there will be thrown into the Lake of Fire: Rvelation 20:

14And death and hellwere cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The righteous souls are no longer carried by the Angels to paradise, they are carried by the Angels into the presence of Jesus Christ: 2 Corinthians 5:
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
Notice that our bodies are our homes...not heaven.

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

God truly is the God of the living and not of the dead. Pray and research this more along these lines, you will find much more evidence then I have presented here.

Laodicea · Mar 1, 2012

IMINJC said:

I first asked you to show me from the Bible why you do not believe it to be a parable which you have not done. Use the Bible for your explanation not your own words.

Laodicea · Mar 1, 2012

Red33 said:

Does that mean that our Lord can not relate to truth or reveal truth in His explanation? God reveals truth not matter what the context. You can't say that Jesus just randomly made up the part about the state of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man. That was truth and we learn the truth from it and there is no contradiction. If Jesus just made up this story absent from the truth then what else has He done this with concerning any of the parables? Do we excuse ourselves from certain doctrine and understanding just because we may find it revealed here a little and there a little? The only contradiction is in your mind because you have not understood the truth that Jesus was teaching.

I have shown you Bible you have shown none. You need to address the texts I quoted, use the Bible not your own words.

peacefulbeliever · Mar 1, 2012

I pretty well know a lot about this subject - and it is nothing compared to what you show here. It's just that so many people lump soul and spirit together without distinguishing between the two - yes - man is body, soul/spirit which is the "natural man, the flesh". Once the natural man is born again, he has God in Christ in him via the holy spirit - now he is complete. When he dies - he quits breathing - he ceases to have emotions, thoughts, feelings, etc. - all that goes to the grave but the spirit goes back to God that gave it. To say anything else is speculation or going beyond what God says about death until the resurrection of the dead.

In Christ. . . . .

IMINJC · Mar 2, 2012

Laodicea

YOU SAID: "I first asked you to show me from the Bible why you do not believe it to be a parable which you have not done. Use the Bible for your explanation not your own words."

I'm not on this forum to convince believers like you to change your opinion, because I have been around long enough to know that certain people love their doctrine more than truth, no matter how hard that truth slaps them in the face.

I post on this forum so that those who really don't understand that may browse through these forums can look at my posts and see that I have VERY CLEARLY shown from the Bible why the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a parable. Then they look at your posts and see that you continue to avoid the only question that really matters on this thread, and what they see is a person who does not want to face the fact that their opinion of so many scriptures have been wrong all along. Well don't feel bad, because most peoples pride will never allow them to admit that they have greatly erred in interpreting scripture.

For those un-lookers that may be curious of what I mean; I will post the following one more time.

The following statement is not MY OPINION; it is a QUOTE from Jesus that he (Not Me) claimed Abraham made and it is found in the Bible, No it was not taken from my own personal note books:

LUKE 16:25-26

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

The question is simple..Did Abraham actually say these words, or is Jesus a liar?

krisbrian · Mar 3, 2012

IMINJC said:

Laodicea

YOU SAID: "I first asked you to show me from the Bible why you do not believe it to be a parable which you have not done. Use the Bible for your explanation not your own words."

I'm not on this forum to convince believers like you to change your opinion, because I have been around long enough to know that certain people love their doctrine more than truth, no matter how hard that truth slaps them in the face.

I post on this forum so that those who really don't understand that may browse through these forums can look at my posts and see that I have VERY CLEARLY shown from the Bible why the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a parable. Then they look at your posts and see that you continue to avoid the only question that really matters on this thread, and what they see is a person who does not want to face the fact that their opinion of so many scriptures have been wrong all along. Well don't feel bad, because most peoples pride will never allow them to admit that they have greatly erred in interpreting scripture.

For those un-lookers that may be curious of what I mean; I will post the following one more time.

The following statement is not MY OPINION; it is a QUOTE from Jesus that he (Not Me) claimed Abraham made and it is found in the Bible, No it was not taken from my own personal note books:

LUKE 16:25-26

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

The question is simple..Did Abraham actually say these words, or is Jesus a liar?

You are 100% right friend

Laodicea · Mar 8, 2012

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable Look at the way Jesus starts His parables

Luke 10:30
(30) And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luke 12:16
(16) And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luke 13:6
(6) He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luke 14:16
(16) Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
Luke 15:11
(11) And he said, A certain man had two sons:
Luke 16:1
(1) And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
Luke 19:12
(12) He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luke 20:9
(9) Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

Notice how all these parables start now look at how the parable of the rich man and Lazarus starts.
Luke 16:19
(19) There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Spiritual_Plague · Mar 9, 2012

Laodicea,

That is not grounds for it to be a parable! Jesus told you the name of the poor man, Lazarus. This is no parable.

With your logic I've found soooo many parables!!! Look at all these parables:

I found another parable about Lazarus here:

Jhn 11:1 Now a certain [man] was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.

Jhn 5:5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years.

Luk 14:2 And behold, there was a certain man before Him who had dropsy.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great,

Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession.

I've got about 50 billion other new found "parables" I could post from the Bible, but I'll stop there.

Laodicea · Mar 9, 2012

Spiritual_Plague said:

Laodicea,

That is not grounds for it to be a parable! Jesus told you the name of the poor man, Lazarus. This is no parable.

With your logic I've found soooo many parables!!! Look at all these parables:

I found another parable about Lazarus here:

Jhn 11:1 Now a certain [man] was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.

Jhn 5:5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years.

Luk 14:2 And behold, there was a certain man before Him who had dropsy.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great,

Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession.

I've got about 50 billion other new found "parables" I could post from the Bible, but I'll stop there.

The difference with the texts you showed is that Jesus is not speaking in the verses you showed. Look at the parables that Jesus told and how He started them.

Spiritual_Plague · Mar 9, 2012

Ok...here is one of Jesus speaking.

Mat 26:18 And He said, "Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, "My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples." ' "

Therefore your theory doesn't hold it's weight. This passage doesn't show Jesus using the phrase in the same description as I showed you with so many other live examples of people using the phrase in actual events, but it does show that Jesus used the terminology in his regular speech as well, saying "a certain man'.

Plus, can you show ANY parables that use someone's name??

Laodicea · Mar 9, 2012

Spiritual_Plague said:

Ok...here is one of Jesus speaking.

Mat 26:18 And He said, "Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, "My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples." ' "

Therefore your theory doesn't hold it's weight. This passage doesn't show Jesus using the phrase in the same description as I showed you with so many other live examples of people using the phrase in actual events, but it does show that Jesus used the terminology in his regular speech as well, saying "a certain man'.

Plus, can you show ANY parables that use someone's name??

Jesus is giving instruction He is not tellin a parable. Read His parables.

Spiritual_Plague · Mar 9, 2012

Laodicea,

Yeah, I checked them out. I think you would have made a solid point, if the story did not use names of actual people such as Abraham and Lazarus, and if Jesus spoke parables based on false pretenses. The scenarios He gives in the parables are things that could actually happen...otherwise they wouldn't be relatable to truth.

Even if you want to consider it as a parable, it still doesn't change that even parables are based on truth, meaning that Jesus clearly believed and taught that there is a body and a spirit, and the spirit is conscious after death.

When the disciples saw Jesus after the resurrection, what did they say??

Luke 24:36-37
"Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you." 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit."

They thought they were seeing Jesus' spirit!!

What did Jesus say about that???

"I've taught you for 3 1/2 years...and you should know that a spirit isn't conscious after it has departed the body....therefore I can't be a spirit. This proves to you that I am not a spirit and am actually standing in front of you right now" ?

....not even close

He identified the truth of their statement and confirmed that they could actually be seeing a spirit (which is obviously conscious apart from the body)...but He went on to say that He is not a spirit, and the proof was that He had flesh and bones (a spirit does not have flesh and bones).

Luk 24:39-40
"Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet."

You want to call it a parable...that's fine, it doesn't change the fact that it was spoken from true pretenses and Jesus and His disciples believed those pretenses and maintained and taught those beliefs that a spirit IS conscious apart from the body. You see it in the New Testament teachings in the letters as well.

If people want to understand scripture apart from Jesus' teachings then so be it...but I think what they really need to do base their understanding of scripture from Jesus as their first and primary reference.

After all He's the one with the true doctrine. Hear it from Him:
John 7:16-17
16 Jesus [fn] answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or [whether] I speak on My own [authority]."'

The fact is that Jesus believed and taught that the spirit is conscious apart from the body, so I guess that the main issue really is...if Jesus was actually speaking the doctrine of God, or if He was speaking on His own authority.

He was speaking the doctrine of God of course.

Laodicea · Mar 9, 2012

In the strictest sense of the word, the rich man represents the Pharisees. This is true for
at least five reasons:
1) The rich man addressed Abraham as father and Abraham addressed
Lazarus as son (Lk. 16:24, 25, 27, 30). The Jews in general, but the Pharisees in particular
claimed Abraham as their father (see, Jn. 8:37-44; Mt. 3:9).

2) The Pharisees claimed to have a
special closeness to Abraham. Jesus would never have described the Gentiles as being in the
“bosom of Abraham”.

3) The rich man had five brothers. These could very well represent the
other Jewish denominations of Christ’s day: The Sadducees, the Herodians, the Scribes, the
Zealots and the Essenes.

4) It is clear that the rich man believed in the immortality of the soul
because he asked Abraham to send someone to his brother from among the dead (verse 30).
This is precisely what the Pharisees believed!

5) The brothers of the rich man “had Moses and
the Prophets” (verse 31). It was the Jews who had Moses and the Prophets (Jn. 5:39-46).

There are several parallel words in this passage to the parable of the rich man and
Lazarus: Crumbs, dogs, table, children. This would indicate that Lazarus represents the
gentiles. The Jews called the gentiles, “stones” (Mt. 3:9-10), “dogs” (Mt. 15:26) and “swine” (Mt. 7:6)

Spiritual_Plague · Mar 9, 2012

That is a massive load of...presumption

.

Check out my post just above yours and consider what I said about how it's really not that big of an issue whether you consider it a parable or not- because no parable is built on false pretenses.

krisbrian · Mar 9, 2012

If you mention the actual name of an actual person and you quote him as saying things he didnt actually say...

"But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

"Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

....then it becomes a lie. There is no way of getting around that. Either Abraham actually said these things or its a lie.

Spiritual_Plague · Mar 9, 2012

Great point

Are the dead dead or do they keep on liveing?..............

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