When the conscience has been truly purged through the blood of Christ from dead works that have resulted from sin and works of the flesh, there should be no more remembrance of sin, the stain of sin, the wages of sin or the effects of sin, because all sin has been put away by the sacrifice of Christ. When a believer is cleansed from all sin the conscience should bear witness through the indwelling Spirit that there is no sin seperating them from God, therefore giving them access by faith as a believer-priest to the holiest or God's throne room where He sits and communes in the midst of the cheribums. As redeemed sinners, who still have the old sin nature within the members of our body (Rom 7:23), we have direct access to the throne of God. We may sin but we have access. We may fail but we have access. We may be a prodigal son or daughter but when we come back we have access. Nothing we do could take away from the access that God has made available to us through His Son. This is not a fallacy or pipe dream, it is what God has for and to the sinner who has trusted in His Son.
Fallacies of the Present Day Church
- Thread starter Skinski7
- Start date
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F
Skinski, I never got the "perfectionist" message out of anything I have ever read from you. I totally agree, the sin, repent, sin, repent, if one is doing that on purpose, does not understand repentance.
Though I did not read all of what you wrote, so I was not going to argue what you believe with others, as you may have said something that I was not aware.
I already know how if any repeats Heb 5:8-9, 10:26, Luk 12:43 he is labeled as perfectionist, which is why I wanted someone to show exactly what you said stating or implying that, which no one did.
As I said in the post above that, I cant see a perfectionist mentioning repentance, seeing repentance would not be needed for the flawless perfect.
I agree it is a straw man that people will throw to discredit the person, not ever dealing with the true message, and just tearing down the straw man they built up.
Though I do not say that for everyone, many ask me if I think I am sinless, when I explain, they have said, "oh okay, and usually agree". Others, will pretend the perfection argument.
When you dont like the message,
kill the messenger!!.
Though I did not read all of what you wrote, so I was not going to argue what you believe with others, as you may have said something that I was not aware.
I already know how if any repeats Heb 5:8-9, 10:26, Luk 12:43 he is labeled as perfectionist, which is why I wanted someone to show exactly what you said stating or implying that, which no one did.
As I said in the post above that, I cant see a perfectionist mentioning repentance, seeing repentance would not be needed for the flawless perfect.
I agree it is a straw man that people will throw to discredit the person, not ever dealing with the true message, and just tearing down the straw man they built up.
Though I do not say that for everyone, many ask me if I think I am sinless, when I explain, they have said, "oh okay, and usually agree". Others, will pretend the perfection argument.
When you dont like the message,
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A
i agree with nearly all you two have said.
I cant agree with the appraisal of romans 7
And im sure people shoot down stuff and use straw men
both sides...but what are the main issues? of disagreement?
I dont disagree with all of what you say, just to discuss parts
that gets said too, meaning when you take issue with small
parts of whats said...seems sometimes people think you
totally disagreed with it all...which is sad.
I cant agree with the appraisal of romans 7
And im sure people shoot down stuff and use straw men
both sides...but what are the main issues? of disagreement?
I dont disagree with all of what you say, just to discuss parts
that gets said too, meaning when you take issue with small
parts of whats said...seems sometimes people think you
totally disagreed with it all...which is sad.
F
In the 10,000,000+ words I have typed with different people concerning this subject, I realized the main area of disagreement is if the person who is to face God's wrath was ever saved, or if he fell from being saved, which to me is petty when you really think about it.
If both are saying living in sin will not get us to heaven, whether saved and fell, or never have been saved, then I am not sure what it matters if one believes either way, the point is we cannot live in sin.
The straw-men of "your saying we can live in all the sin we want" and the otherside, "your saying your perfect" is why were missing what MOST (not all) of both sides agree, one cannot live in sin and receive heaven in the end.
NO it does not mean he is perfect as sinless all the time and forever, and no it does not mean he can live in all the sin he wants.
I think if these two points would be accepted by both sides concerning the other, maybe it would help in these discussions not turning so ugly.
Yet, maybe their is something else major I am forgetting that goes with this argument.
If both are saying living in sin will not get us to heaven, whether saved and fell, or never have been saved, then I am not sure what it matters if one believes either way, the point is we cannot live in sin.
The straw-men of "your saying we can live in all the sin we want" and the otherside, "your saying your perfect" is why were missing what MOST (not all) of both sides agree, one cannot live in sin and receive heaven in the end.
NO it does not mean he is perfect as sinless all the time and forever, and no it does not mean he can live in all the sin he wants.
I think if these two points would be accepted by both sides concerning the other, maybe it would help in these discussions not turning so ugly.
Yet, maybe their is something else major I am forgetting that goes with this argument.
A
I can see the one side that thinks it is preached that sin isnt an issue will rise up...so would I.
The other side wanting things to be carefully said to not see the younguns be set up
for a fall being overly pounded on...i see that side being on guard also.
Example in a question...did peter by the 3rd denial sin willfully? if you say he wasnt born again
then go to his awful habit sneaking around eating with gentiles...was that accidental. My point is
when i take issue with what is preached here...its usually for the good of the listenner and maybe
i fail to use tact and wisdom with the teacher. but....we just have to teach balanced true doctrine
as to not feed someone fastfood...but living bread
The other side wanting things to be carefully said to not see the younguns be set up
for a fall being overly pounded on...i see that side being on guard also.
Example in a question...did peter by the 3rd denial sin willfully? if you say he wasnt born again
then go to his awful habit sneaking around eating with gentiles...was that accidental. My point is
when i take issue with what is preached here...its usually for the good of the listenner and maybe
i fail to use tact and wisdom with the teacher. but....we just have to teach balanced true doctrine
as to not feed someone fastfood...but living bread
There has never been a believer that has ever lived that did not have the capacity to willfully sin in a nano second of a heartbeat. With the right circumstances where the flesh can easily be engaged, it can happen so fast that the believer acts before he can stop himself from following through. Of course it is not the will of God, but God has never been surprised or moved in any way when a believer sins willfully. There are various examples in the scriptures and God will deal in wisdom with those who do and when He does He will be looking upon the heart and He will be filled with mercy and plenty of grace and you can be sure of that. After all He has been through with Israel with their rebellion and turning aside His only begotten Son, He has purposed to deliver them and has remembered His covenant and promise to them.
Some of you want us to act and believe as if God has forgotten His own tender mercies and His own compassions that fail not. Does He not have the power to redeem and buy back those who have been overcome by evil and have blasphemed His own Son whom He sent? The fallacy is that we do not believe that God is able and trustworthy to overcome that which needs to be overcome and to abide in His own power to do those things for men that are impossible with men. We seem to charge God's grace as cheap and lascivious and lacking when we attribute and give it to those who least deserve it. Shame on us for giving grace to those who might willfully sin and hope with the impartation of that grace that they will confess their sin and be restored by faith to having fellowship with Christ once again.
Some of you want us to act and believe as if God has forgotten His own tender mercies and His own compassions that fail not. Does He not have the power to redeem and buy back those who have been overcome by evil and have blasphemed His own Son whom He sent? The fallacy is that we do not believe that God is able and trustworthy to overcome that which needs to be overcome and to abide in His own power to do those things for men that are impossible with men. We seem to charge God's grace as cheap and lascivious and lacking when we attribute and give it to those who least deserve it. Shame on us for giving grace to those who might willfully sin and hope with the impartation of that grace that they will confess their sin and be restored by faith to having fellowship with Christ once again.
I just wrote this yesterday, and after reading through these posts, and I side with Skinski, as he is teaching sound biblical truth, I can see many of you still in bondage to many false teachings, and defending them earnestly, he brings up the molester question hopefully to get you saved IN sin advocates to come out of the box and reformed thinking, and see you are actually saying you can be in total rebellion to God and still be saved!
Hope this helps!
Many who have come out of the system, and seem to present a holy and proper message about repentance and faith, and who preach against sin and worldliness, give a different view of willful rebellion to God, and mistakes and faults we all encounter every day.
When they say slip up or mistake, they are giving allowance for an occasional act of immorality, adultery, drunkenness, lying, cheating, cussing, etc., another words it’s not good to rebel against God in these ways, but as long as you repent you will be forgiven.
They also make it clear that a slip up isn’t the same as a continual practice of say porn watching! And in 1 John 1-2, John is saying IF we sin, which of course means an occasional mistake, or unintentional sin, along with things such as worry, fear, doubts, poor decisions and judgments, but not referring to slipping up into willful rebellion to God, where the desire meets the will, giving into the lust of the flesh, and mocking God as you rebel against Him in wanton sin and lust.
IF one has come to a true conversion, that can only come from real repentance and faith, proven by deeds, which is a changed heart and life, where the sin is put to death, kept dead, and thus the convert puts on the whole armor of God each and every day, to keep himself unspotted from the world, and the lust of it!
Ezekiel made is very clear as he spoke the warning, the soul who sins shall die, thus one act of total blatant, willful rebellion against God leads to death, one time as with Adam and Eve, they were warned and died spiritually for their one act of disobedience, they sure didn’t have to sin in this manner many times to be disqualified, but just one act!
So weather there is one act of rebellion as in the case of Adam and Eve, or many acts, it is irrelevant, as it takes just one sin to lose your salvation.
A true convert which I am referring to here, and not the fake convert, saved in sin false Christian being produces today, but a genuine repentant convert who is walking in the light, knows the difference between a slip up, and vile rebellion against God, one is forgiven and the other leads to a second repentance, which is a very dangerous place to be.
I am not saying they cannot find real repentance again, King David and Peter did, but others such as Esau did not.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins which he has committed, and keep all My statutes, and do justice and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
This second repentance is no taken lightly such as the sin repent, sin repent crowd will tell you, but to sin willfully and trample the precious blood of Christ again and again is very dangerous territory, and takes much godly sorrow, separation, and time to be sure this second repentance was real and from the heart.
So to say a slip up is falling into porn watching, adultery, and even murder on occasion, and all’s one must do is repent, and not continue in these sins is being dishonest in my opinion, and playing Russian roulette with the grace of God, where He clearly says the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom!
So IF a truly converted follower of Christ, (not the fake ones who are still in bondage to sin and never repented, because they see nothing they need to repent of) decides to go out and get drunk, which is a willful, pre-planned, evil decision, then coming home from the bar, crashes into a tree, instantly killing himself, what is his destiny? Some will say the grace of God covers his willful act of rebellion, since it wasn’t an on going practice, but I say the soul who sins shall die, and this person would be judged harshly for their willful rebellious heart, knowing the truth, and knowing the consequences of their vile actions!
Folks, God gives us all who call upon His name with a pure heart, all we need in Christ to be overcomers, walk worthy of our calling, abstain from all forms of evil, and even a way out of ANY temptation, His grace and power over these struggles is more than sufficient and will keep us strong and pure in a dark world and church that says you can sin and will not die!
Can a real follower then fall into willful grievous sin such as porn watching, or drunkenness on occasion, then hope to find repentance again?
Or does it take many bouts of these sins to loose salvation and your secure position?
I say I will leave that up to God, trust His word on the issue, where He looks deep into the heart in these matters and will judge accordingly, but as He proclaims all through scripture, one act of willful disobedience will disqualify you from the kingdom.
Do you want to take that chance, hoping to find a second repentance, or be involved in willful acts of rebellion when Jesus returns to judge the world while you decided to feed your flesh, have a so called weak moment, then look Him in the eye, and hope His grace covers your rebellion?
I pray all who name the name of Christ, would never find themselves in this grave situation, when He has given us all we need pertaining to a life of godliness, and strength against the lies and temptations that will come and go, but he who does the will of the father will live forever!
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal: "The Lord knew those who are His." And, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity!"
Tommy
PS. Now when Ezekiel stated that when an unrighteous man sins grievously against God, but then comes to real repentance and brokenness over His grave transgression, then forgiveness and mercy is there for him is true, but I don’t think this verse is pertaining to a true convert who has been washed and purged by the blood of Christ, to be used to say he or she makes sin a habit.
I just don’t think you can say this is the normal experience of a true convert where they fall into willful disobedience as a habit, then rely on 1 Jn 1-2, and Eze18-21 to give excuse even willful acts of rebellion will automatically be forgiven, again it’s the heart God looks deep into, and sees our many imperfections and faults we all struggle with, and mercy is granted accordingly, BUT willful acts of predetermined rebellion against God by a true saint is few and far between, NOT the rule but the exception, and very, very, dangerous to even consider or entertain the thought of taking that dark road that leads to spiritual death and separation from God, as He has given us many, many, ways to escape through the strength and power of His son Jesus Christ!
Hope this helps!
When a righteous man turneth away!
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Many who have come out of the system, and seem to present a holy and proper message about repentance and faith, and who preach against sin and worldliness, give a different view of willful rebellion to God, and mistakes and faults we all encounter every day.
When they say slip up or mistake, they are giving allowance for an occasional act of immorality, adultery, drunkenness, lying, cheating, cussing, etc., another words it’s not good to rebel against God in these ways, but as long as you repent you will be forgiven.
They also make it clear that a slip up isn’t the same as a continual practice of say porn watching! And in 1 John 1-2, John is saying IF we sin, which of course means an occasional mistake, or unintentional sin, along with things such as worry, fear, doubts, poor decisions and judgments, but not referring to slipping up into willful rebellion to God, where the desire meets the will, giving into the lust of the flesh, and mocking God as you rebel against Him in wanton sin and lust.
IF one has come to a true conversion, that can only come from real repentance and faith, proven by deeds, which is a changed heart and life, where the sin is put to death, kept dead, and thus the convert puts on the whole armor of God each and every day, to keep himself unspotted from the world, and the lust of it!
Ezekiel made is very clear as he spoke the warning, the soul who sins shall die, thus one act of total blatant, willful rebellion against God leads to death, one time as with Adam and Eve, they were warned and died spiritually for their one act of disobedience, they sure didn’t have to sin in this manner many times to be disqualified, but just one act!
So weather there is one act of rebellion as in the case of Adam and Eve, or many acts, it is irrelevant, as it takes just one sin to lose your salvation.
A true convert which I am referring to here, and not the fake convert, saved in sin false Christian being produces today, but a genuine repentant convert who is walking in the light, knows the difference between a slip up, and vile rebellion against God, one is forgiven and the other leads to a second repentance, which is a very dangerous place to be.
I am not saying they cannot find real repentance again, King David and Peter did, but others such as Esau did not.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins which he has committed, and keep all My statutes, and do justice and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
This second repentance is no taken lightly such as the sin repent, sin repent crowd will tell you, but to sin willfully and trample the precious blood of Christ again and again is very dangerous territory, and takes much godly sorrow, separation, and time to be sure this second repentance was real and from the heart.
So to say a slip up is falling into porn watching, adultery, and even murder on occasion, and all’s one must do is repent, and not continue in these sins is being dishonest in my opinion, and playing Russian roulette with the grace of God, where He clearly says the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom!
So IF a truly converted follower of Christ, (not the fake ones who are still in bondage to sin and never repented, because they see nothing they need to repent of) decides to go out and get drunk, which is a willful, pre-planned, evil decision, then coming home from the bar, crashes into a tree, instantly killing himself, what is his destiny? Some will say the grace of God covers his willful act of rebellion, since it wasn’t an on going practice, but I say the soul who sins shall die, and this person would be judged harshly for their willful rebellious heart, knowing the truth, and knowing the consequences of their vile actions!
Folks, God gives us all who call upon His name with a pure heart, all we need in Christ to be overcomers, walk worthy of our calling, abstain from all forms of evil, and even a way out of ANY temptation, His grace and power over these struggles is more than sufficient and will keep us strong and pure in a dark world and church that says you can sin and will not die!
Can a real follower then fall into willful grievous sin such as porn watching, or drunkenness on occasion, then hope to find repentance again?
Or does it take many bouts of these sins to loose salvation and your secure position?
I say I will leave that up to God, trust His word on the issue, where He looks deep into the heart in these matters and will judge accordingly, but as He proclaims all through scripture, one act of willful disobedience will disqualify you from the kingdom.
Do you want to take that chance, hoping to find a second repentance, or be involved in willful acts of rebellion when Jesus returns to judge the world while you decided to feed your flesh, have a so called weak moment, then look Him in the eye, and hope His grace covers your rebellion?
I pray all who name the name of Christ, would never find themselves in this grave situation, when He has given us all we need pertaining to a life of godliness, and strength against the lies and temptations that will come and go, but he who does the will of the father will live forever!
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal: "The Lord knew those who are His." And, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity!"
Tommy
PS. Now when Ezekiel stated that when an unrighteous man sins grievously against God, but then comes to real repentance and brokenness over His grave transgression, then forgiveness and mercy is there for him is true, but I don’t think this verse is pertaining to a true convert who has been washed and purged by the blood of Christ, to be used to say he or she makes sin a habit.
I just don’t think you can say this is the normal experience of a true convert where they fall into willful disobedience as a habit, then rely on 1 Jn 1-2, and Eze18-21 to give excuse even willful acts of rebellion will automatically be forgiven, again it’s the heart God looks deep into, and sees our many imperfections and faults we all struggle with, and mercy is granted accordingly, BUT willful acts of predetermined rebellion against God by a true saint is few and far between, NOT the rule but the exception, and very, very, dangerous to even consider or entertain the thought of taking that dark road that leads to spiritual death and separation from God, as He has given us many, many, ways to escape through the strength and power of His son Jesus Christ!
F
It has never been about what God is able to do, He is not limited. He is the one who gave us grace, and we cannot change anything about it as far as what one must do to receive this grace.
If we fail by our choice to turn to a life of sin, it is not God who failed, but us.
It is possible for us to overcome sin, if not the Bible would be telling us to do the impossible. All things are possible with God, including abiding in his doctrine in order to overcome sin.
With every temptation, every sin, God provides a way of escape. If he does so, then He expects us to take that. Yet at times we may not.
We do not choose not to escape, and confess our sins, while we sin, and expect to be cleansed by the blood of Christ.
The blood of Christ is not applied one time, and then it's over with, but it continues to cleanse us, implying that we can stain ourselves even after becoming a Christian.
His blood does cleans if we do not walk in the light. "Walk" means to "abide, live by, in accordance with", showing his blood is conditional upon that aspect - I Jn 1:7
God's grace gives us the ability to repent, without it, no blood would have been shed, and we would hear nothing of repentance, because it would be impossible to do so.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. <----Should always keep reading
1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. <--He is the advocate for those who keep his commands.
One may say if he "keeps His commands" then he would not have sinned. Not true, again this is about living in sin. Repentance is a part of "keeping His commands".
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, <---If we do not, no matter if profess to be Christians in the most humblest manner calling ourselves filthy sinners etc.
The fact is one living in sin, refusing to repent does not know him and is called a liar.
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this ("This" by keeping his word) we may know that we are in him: <---The only way to be sure we are IN Him, is by keeping his commands.
Rom 8:1 implies those not IN him, should expect condemnation.
This is not saying God's grace is for the perfect, but it is for the sinner so he can repent and walk and keep his commands. If we fail, then part of keeping his commands is to repent, confess, and be cleansed again by the blood of Christ.
Hope you get what I am trying to say here.
If we fail by our choice to turn to a life of sin, it is not God who failed, but us.
It is possible for us to overcome sin, if not the Bible would be telling us to do the impossible. All things are possible with God, including abiding in his doctrine in order to overcome sin.
With every temptation, every sin, God provides a way of escape. If he does so, then He expects us to take that. Yet at times we may not.
We do not choose not to escape, and confess our sins, while we sin, and expect to be cleansed by the blood of Christ.
The blood of Christ is not applied one time, and then it's over with, but it continues to cleanse us, implying that we can stain ourselves even after becoming a Christian.
His blood does cleans if we do not walk in the light. "Walk" means to "abide, live by, in accordance with", showing his blood is conditional upon that aspect - I Jn 1:7
God's grace gives us the ability to repent, without it, no blood would have been shed, and we would hear nothing of repentance, because it would be impossible to do so.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. <----Should always keep reading
1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. <--He is the advocate for those who keep his commands.
One may say if he "keeps His commands" then he would not have sinned. Not true, again this is about living in sin. Repentance is a part of "keeping His commands".
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, <---If we do not, no matter if profess to be Christians in the most humblest manner calling ourselves filthy sinners etc.
The fact is one living in sin, refusing to repent does not know him and is called a liar.
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this ("This" by keeping his word) we may know that we are in him: <---The only way to be sure we are IN Him, is by keeping his commands.
Rom 8:1 implies those not IN him, should expect condemnation.
This is not saying God's grace is for the perfect, but it is for the sinner so he can repent and walk and keep his commands. If we fail, then part of keeping his commands is to repent, confess, and be cleansed again by the blood of Christ.
Hope you get what I am trying to say here.
A
Tommy4Christ Online
Senior Member
Join Date: February 11th, 2012
Age: 51
Posts: 675
Rep Power: 1
Re: Fallacies of the Present Day Church
I just wrote this yesterday, and after reading through these posts, and I side with Skinski, as he is teaching sound biblical truth, I can see many of you still in bondage to many false teachings, and defending them earnestly, he brings up the molester question hopefully to get you saved IN sin advocates to come out of the box and reformed thinking, and see you are actually saying you can be in total rebellion to God and still be saved!
Hope this helps!
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Isnt this false? what reformed group teaches believers can live in total rebellion? Isnt this just plain silly?
Do you really have to stretch this far to push your agenda?
Senior Member
Join Date: February 11th, 2012
Age: 51
Posts: 675
Rep Power: 1
Re: Fallacies of the Present Day Church
I just wrote this yesterday, and after reading through these posts, and I side with Skinski, as he is teaching sound biblical truth, I can see many of you still in bondage to many false teachings, and defending them earnestly, he brings up the molester question hopefully to get you saved IN sin advocates to come out of the box and reformed thinking, and see you are actually saying you can be in total rebellion to God and still be saved!
Hope this helps!
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Isnt this false? what reformed group teaches believers can live in total rebellion? Isnt this just plain silly?
Do you really have to stretch this far to push your agenda?
I am not sure why you used the word "TOTAL" before rebellion, is that an allusion that a believer can live in "PARTIAL" rebellion?
The teaching that a Christian can be in rebellion and saved at the same time is taught almost everywhere. The preachers just fluff it up with rhetoric so it doesn't sound so bad and thus deceive multitudes.
If Jesus was "punished" by God in your place then the "debt due" has been paid therefore any sin you commit has already been taken care of. Then logically there is no sin you can do which would condemn you.
Logically also the atonement would be "limited" because there is no possible way that Jesus was "punished" as a substitute for those who go to hell otherwise the same sins would be being punished twice. This is one reason why Reformed theology teaches the L in TULIP.
Penal Substitution forces the logical conclusion that a believer can be in total rebellion and remain justified. Now preachers who believe this won't usually present it as bluntly as I just did and in order to deal with the holiness scriptures in the Bible they will teach the P of TULIP which is Perseverance of the Saints. In other words they teach that if you are truly elect, while you may fall into grevious sin for while, you will persevere in the end and get back on track due to God's "irresistible grace" (I in TULIP). Due to these doctrines no-one can JUDGE because there is no way to know if someone is actually saved or not because the "fruit born" is totally disconnected from "salvation" ie. Justification and Sanctification are separated. Under this system a "saved person" may simply be in their "falling stage" and that is why these preachers won't tell the people that certain kinds of behaviour will disqualify them from the kingdom. After-all they believe that all the sin has already been "paid for" and that the salvation of the elect is a done deal.
When the above Penal Model of the cross is combined with the doctrine that Jesus obeyed for you and that His obedient track record is credited to your account (imputed righteousness of Christ) then you have a Gospel message where the sinner is simply cloaked in his ongoing rebellion. The implications of this clearly teach that one can be in rebellion and saved at the same time.
Here is what Martin Luther taught...
Martin Luther, Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt
Martin Luther, Babylonian Captivity of the Church
http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/BABYLONIAN_CAPTIVITY_OF_THE_CHURCH.pdf
John MacArthur
Questions and Answers on Romans 1-2
Many direct quotes in this short video.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPuhbm74JRU[/video]
The teaching that a Christian can be in rebellion and saved at the same time is taught almost everywhere. The preachers just fluff it up with rhetoric so it doesn't sound so bad and thus deceive multitudes.
If Jesus was "punished" by God in your place then the "debt due" has been paid therefore any sin you commit has already been taken care of. Then logically there is no sin you can do which would condemn you.
Logically also the atonement would be "limited" because there is no possible way that Jesus was "punished" as a substitute for those who go to hell otherwise the same sins would be being punished twice. This is one reason why Reformed theology teaches the L in TULIP.
Penal Substitution forces the logical conclusion that a believer can be in total rebellion and remain justified. Now preachers who believe this won't usually present it as bluntly as I just did and in order to deal with the holiness scriptures in the Bible they will teach the P of TULIP which is Perseverance of the Saints. In other words they teach that if you are truly elect, while you may fall into grevious sin for while, you will persevere in the end and get back on track due to God's "irresistible grace" (I in TULIP). Due to these doctrines no-one can JUDGE because there is no way to know if someone is actually saved or not because the "fruit born" is totally disconnected from "salvation" ie. Justification and Sanctification are separated. Under this system a "saved person" may simply be in their "falling stage" and that is why these preachers won't tell the people that certain kinds of behaviour will disqualify them from the kingdom. After-all they believe that all the sin has already been "paid for" and that the salvation of the elect is a done deal.
When the above Penal Model of the cross is combined with the doctrine that Jesus obeyed for you and that His obedient track record is credited to your account (imputed righteousness of Christ) then you have a Gospel message where the sinner is simply cloaked in his ongoing rebellion. The implications of this clearly teach that one can be in rebellion and saved at the same time.
Here is what Martin Luther taught...
Martin Luther, Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt
Martin Luther, Babylonian Captivity of the Church
http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/BABYLONIAN_CAPTIVITY_OF_THE_CHURCH.pdf
John MacArthur
Questions and Answers on Romans 1-2
Many direct quotes in this short video.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPuhbm74JRU[/video]
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Abiding; you ask what reformed group teaches believers can live in total rebellion! The reformed group of people Tommy4Christ is speaking of are those teaching a once save always saved salvation message. Sorry to say but these groups of people are not reformed in the light of the Word of God.
And yes they do teach this doctine. I have been involved with a number of these false churches and no it is not just one denomination there are many who teach this lie.
There is one passage in scripture that clearly states the truth of what has been debated in this post, and it leaves no room for error.
Hebrews 6:4-8 (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 10:10 (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
We can not denie the meat of this passage. God clearly says if we shall fall away it is impossible to renew such a person again unto repentance. For Jesus Christ gave himself only once for the sins we commited prior to coming to true repentance. Once we have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost any sin from there on out is future sin and it goes before us unto judgement.
Romans 3:25 (KJV)
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1 Timothy 5:24 (KJV)
24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
If our sin is before us (after we came to know God's righteousness) we will be judged of that sin and condemned for all eternity.
Just as a man who never turns from his sin to righteousness, his sin is always before him.
I am also reading in other posts in this thread where Romans 7 is brought up and taught as being present-tense. Please read this passage from Paul ver carefully. He is speeking in the past-tense. and then goes to the present-tense, the very first verse in chapter 8.
Romans 7:5 (KJV)
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Past-tense
Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Past-tense
Romans 7:8-11 (KJV)
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Past-tense
Romans 7:20 (KJV)
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
In 7:20 Paul even brings up the future-tense.
Romans 8:1-2 (KJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Verse 1 is present-tense
Verse 2 is past-tense, telling us what what the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus did.
If I am free from prison do I continue in prison? NO WAY I run as fast as I can toward freedom.
So if the Spirit of life freed me from sinand death, why would I continue in sin and death, rather than run as fast as I can to freedom and life. Which is in Christ Jesus.
If we are in Christ Jesus we walk after the Spirit, not the flesh.
Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Come out from the teachings of your religions and seek after the truth from the living God, creator of heaven and earth.
Skinski7:
Do not fall into the snare of others seeking to persecute you; through debate. All God has asked of his children is to share the gospel message, we are to plant seed for him. It is up to God to make it grow. God does now want us to be involved with strife and hatred. We see in Galatians 5:19-21 were those people will NOT be.
Keep in mind what God says.
Titus 3:9-11 (KJV)
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
May the love of God enter into the hearts of all those professing to be Christians, that they may see the truth.
John 8:31-32 (KJV)
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
W
Doesn't the Bible say to confess our sins? Maybe the discussion could end if people tell the sin(s) they keep repeating after being saved forever. Confess here!! It gives some people the impression it must be ongoing sin on a regular basis. Like some sins are harder to break than others I know.
On the other hand, some people think a thought can be a sin. So confessing here might speed up the recovery process of the debate.
On the other hand, some people think a thought can be a sin. So confessing here might speed up the recovery process of the debate.
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Skinski7:
Do not fall into the snare of others seeking to persecute you; through debate. All God has asked of his children is to share the gospel message, we are to plant seed for him. It is up to God to make it grow. God does not want us to be involved with strife and hatred. We see in Galatians 5:19-21 were those people will NOT be.
Sorry for th typo in the last post. God does NOT want us to be involved with strife and hatred.
Do not fall into the snare of others seeking to persecute you; through debate. All God has asked of his children is to share the gospel message, we are to plant seed for him. It is up to God to make it grow. God does not want us to be involved with strife and hatred. We see in Galatians 5:19-21 were those people will NOT be.
Sorry for th typo in the last post. God does NOT want us to be involved with strife and hatred.
A
hmm ok i read up to here.
First off i see the angle you guys are going with this.
Right off id have to say im not real familiar with reformed doctrine...at least not
as if i studied it.
I do know that martin luther used hyperbole and is smeared too much over what i feel
is just from those who havnt a clue what his point was. Maybe ive read more of his material
to know he didnt believe or teach what some quotes seem to infer...but thats not my interest.
To me your side has taken few verses that are difficult to understand and make points that
cannot be true. And with certain extreme situational examples you ignore plain doctrine.
Also take a preacher thats trying to convince people of Gods mercy to call them back to His fold
you can sit and think....many implications and read the worst into his message...which i think you do.
On the other hand i see your point also...and for the most part agree with you.
Im not saying i agree with your methods. And dont think they are helping for instance.
Romans 7 starts past tense till 14-25 changes to present tense. To teach this as a
testimony of a presaved person has many other problems internally in the text.
If your gona take a position tho that youve given the heritics enuf time and are gona just kick
the dust off your feet...hmm i spose you can do that...but some people just like to discuss
these very important issues....and they are important.
Lastly...i truly have never belonged to any groups that taught sin was ok or that
living a life of willful sin was covered by the atonement....to the folks ive run with
we never thought those people truly repented or have been saved.
Although some do fall and are overtaken...so i would try to restore them.
First off i see the angle you guys are going with this.
Right off id have to say im not real familiar with reformed doctrine...at least not
as if i studied it.
I do know that martin luther used hyperbole and is smeared too much over what i feel
is just from those who havnt a clue what his point was. Maybe ive read more of his material
to know he didnt believe or teach what some quotes seem to infer...but thats not my interest.
To me your side has taken few verses that are difficult to understand and make points that
cannot be true. And with certain extreme situational examples you ignore plain doctrine.
Also take a preacher thats trying to convince people of Gods mercy to call them back to His fold
you can sit and think....many implications and read the worst into his message...which i think you do.
On the other hand i see your point also...and for the most part agree with you.
Im not saying i agree with your methods. And dont think they are helping for instance.
Romans 7 starts past tense till 14-25 changes to present tense. To teach this as a
testimony of a presaved person has many other problems internally in the text.
If your gona take a position tho that youve given the heritics enuf time and are gona just kick
the dust off your feet...hmm i spose you can do that...but some people just like to discuss
these very important issues....and they are important.
Lastly...i truly have never belonged to any groups that taught sin was ok or that
living a life of willful sin was covered by the atonement....to the folks ive run with
we never thought those people truly repented or have been saved.
Although some do fall and are overtaken...so i would try to restore them.
E
I don't think it is just a point of semantics, or that both sides say they will not get to heaven, so why would we bother to discuss this at all. and why should we be separated and apposed. If it was that easy, I would agree with you 100 %,
I don't even think the real issue is will a person who is living in sin and lives as the world does with no remorse, no moral regret, or any signs of admitting God said it was wrong and evil, thus we should not do it, will get to heaven (of which we all agree is no). and if this was all the question was, I would agree with everything you just stated.
but that is not the issue, the issue's are great, and should not be taken lightly.
1. the gospel (Paul said there is one, if someone changes even one aspect of it, it is a different gospel, and thus no gospel at all.) as we both do not believe the same gospel. saying we should agree that both are ok would make serious consequences in our faith, because it says Paul is in error. and there are different means to heaven, not just one.
2. The law. Paul makes it clear, that the law tells us that ALL sin separates us from God. That the law can not save us, because one would have to obey the whole law, and not just be good at obeying the law (or commit fewer sins). So this again leaves us with serious issues.
On the one hand, we have Those like me, who agree even 1 sin is worthy of damnation. and since one sin will separate us from God. how can we say we are more worthy of salvation than anyone else? And how can we put a number on how much sin would be considered 'living in sin" and how much sin would not be considered "living in sin", since as James even says, if we sin one time with even the smallest sin, we have been found guilty of breaking the whole law. We understand that on a daily basis, our sin against God (no matter how many) makes us unworthy to stand in very presence of God, let alone spend an eternity with him. So we agree, as Paul did in Romans 7, that we are wretched men who are unworthy of anything God offers at any time we are alive on this earth.
On the other hand. we have those who admit that they will still sin, But that as long as they don't "live in sin" or fall back into the world, they will still be saved. The odd thing about it is they say it is us who are excusing sin, when reality it is them who are excusing sin, Because their sin seems to be ok. Since they are not "sinners" as the world would think they are sinners. Many people call this the "holier than thou" group, and it resembles the pharisees, Even though they might agree Christ is messiah, They believe that they still earn the right to heaven, because they do not "sin like the world sins" when they in reality can not even see their own sin.
3. The character of God. which imposes many things which are at extreme odds with both beliefs. and the one HUGE fact which separates us so much.
A. God chose us before the foundation of the world. and predestined us to be adopted as sons of God. So how can God, who chose to adopt us as his son, Adopt us at one point, then because we did not live up to some standard (whatever standard that might be) forfeit that adoption and "kick a person out of his family" for not living up to that standard. Which in reality those who say one can "lose" salvation are saying, even though they might not agree they are saying it, and even deny it. Did God make a mistake choosing someone before the foundation of the world and have to take it back? No matter what side you take (predestined based on his will alone as in calvanism, or predestined based on foreknowledge) you would have to say, God made a mistake in choosing to adopt someone, and had to correct his mistake. which is damaging to Gods very character.
B. God promised that those who believe in him WILL have eternal life. Now did God mean it or did he not? the problem with opposing views is one says he means it, and this life is eternal, meaning it can not be lost, and one says he did not mean it, and this life God says to be eternal is not eternal at all. That one made alive in Christ, can die again, and go into eternity and suffer a Third death. or a 4th or a 5th) Meaning one was dead to Christ, and made alive by faith, then due to falling back into the world died again (the first death, or if he dies numerous times, other deaths) then he dies physically and enters eternity (the 2nd death, or how ever many times the person died already) then comes judgment, which the person, now separated from God because he did not maintain the standard of righteousness once he was saved) suffers the third death. Although God said it owuld be the "second" and final death.
c. God's promise that whoever comes to him will NEVER DIE (john 6 and others). Based on the fact they have -come to him because of the father, believed in him because of the words which he spoke, etc etc. That they have "believed in the only begotten son of God, and have been "made alive" in Christ. On the one hand, one group says never die, means never die. On the other hand, the other group says one can be made alive, and die again. Which makes what Jesus said a false promise.
d. God promise that he would never lose anyone, That even if one of his sheep (children0 walk away from his presence and goes into the world, Jesus will leave the flock (the church) and go after the one who is LOST, and bring him back. Again we have serious issues. One says that God will not fail to bring him back. One says God will fail as the person refuses to come back. as if he had a choice.
4. Living in sin. John says those who are "born of God" can not live in sin, because they have the spirit of God in them. One says this is true, Although we will sin, and we will struggle form time to time, and our conditional sanctification will vary, We will never again live as we did when we were in the world. One says this is untrue. We can live in sin, and if we do, God will remove his salvation as we have forfeited it.
I could go on and on and on. But I hope everyone sees the point. This is NOT a post to discredit or belittle freedom3, or skinski, or anyone else that thinks it is ok for us to agree to two gospels. But to show everyone why I do not think it is right to disagree in this very issue, for this issue is not like the end times doctrines which many disagree on, this doctrine is the one doctrine which will cause one to enter eternity with God, or cause one to be lost forever.
I don't even think the real issue is will a person who is living in sin and lives as the world does with no remorse, no moral regret, or any signs of admitting God said it was wrong and evil, thus we should not do it, will get to heaven (of which we all agree is no). and if this was all the question was, I would agree with everything you just stated.
but that is not the issue, the issue's are great, and should not be taken lightly.
1. the gospel (Paul said there is one, if someone changes even one aspect of it, it is a different gospel, and thus no gospel at all.) as we both do not believe the same gospel. saying we should agree that both are ok would make serious consequences in our faith, because it says Paul is in error. and there are different means to heaven, not just one.
2. The law. Paul makes it clear, that the law tells us that ALL sin separates us from God. That the law can not save us, because one would have to obey the whole law, and not just be good at obeying the law (or commit fewer sins). So this again leaves us with serious issues.
On the one hand, we have Those like me, who agree even 1 sin is worthy of damnation. and since one sin will separate us from God. how can we say we are more worthy of salvation than anyone else? And how can we put a number on how much sin would be considered 'living in sin" and how much sin would not be considered "living in sin", since as James even says, if we sin one time with even the smallest sin, we have been found guilty of breaking the whole law. We understand that on a daily basis, our sin against God (no matter how many) makes us unworthy to stand in very presence of God, let alone spend an eternity with him. So we agree, as Paul did in Romans 7, that we are wretched men who are unworthy of anything God offers at any time we are alive on this earth.
On the other hand. we have those who admit that they will still sin, But that as long as they don't "live in sin" or fall back into the world, they will still be saved. The odd thing about it is they say it is us who are excusing sin, when reality it is them who are excusing sin, Because their sin seems to be ok. Since they are not "sinners" as the world would think they are sinners. Many people call this the "holier than thou" group, and it resembles the pharisees, Even though they might agree Christ is messiah, They believe that they still earn the right to heaven, because they do not "sin like the world sins" when they in reality can not even see their own sin.
3. The character of God. which imposes many things which are at extreme odds with both beliefs. and the one HUGE fact which separates us so much.
A. God chose us before the foundation of the world. and predestined us to be adopted as sons of God. So how can God, who chose to adopt us as his son, Adopt us at one point, then because we did not live up to some standard (whatever standard that might be) forfeit that adoption and "kick a person out of his family" for not living up to that standard. Which in reality those who say one can "lose" salvation are saying, even though they might not agree they are saying it, and even deny it. Did God make a mistake choosing someone before the foundation of the world and have to take it back? No matter what side you take (predestined based on his will alone as in calvanism, or predestined based on foreknowledge) you would have to say, God made a mistake in choosing to adopt someone, and had to correct his mistake. which is damaging to Gods very character.
B. God promised that those who believe in him WILL have eternal life. Now did God mean it or did he not? the problem with opposing views is one says he means it, and this life is eternal, meaning it can not be lost, and one says he did not mean it, and this life God says to be eternal is not eternal at all. That one made alive in Christ, can die again, and go into eternity and suffer a Third death. or a 4th or a 5th) Meaning one was dead to Christ, and made alive by faith, then due to falling back into the world died again (the first death, or if he dies numerous times, other deaths) then he dies physically and enters eternity (the 2nd death, or how ever many times the person died already) then comes judgment, which the person, now separated from God because he did not maintain the standard of righteousness once he was saved) suffers the third death. Although God said it owuld be the "second" and final death.
c. God's promise that whoever comes to him will NEVER DIE (john 6 and others). Based on the fact they have -come to him because of the father, believed in him because of the words which he spoke, etc etc. That they have "believed in the only begotten son of God, and have been "made alive" in Christ. On the one hand, one group says never die, means never die. On the other hand, the other group says one can be made alive, and die again. Which makes what Jesus said a false promise.
d. God promise that he would never lose anyone, That even if one of his sheep (children0 walk away from his presence and goes into the world, Jesus will leave the flock (the church) and go after the one who is LOST, and bring him back. Again we have serious issues. One says that God will not fail to bring him back. One says God will fail as the person refuses to come back. as if he had a choice.
4. Living in sin. John says those who are "born of God" can not live in sin, because they have the spirit of God in them. One says this is true, Although we will sin, and we will struggle form time to time, and our conditional sanctification will vary, We will never again live as we did when we were in the world. One says this is untrue. We can live in sin, and if we do, God will remove his salvation as we have forfeited it.
I could go on and on and on. But I hope everyone sees the point. This is NOT a post to discredit or belittle freedom3, or skinski, or anyone else that thinks it is ok for us to agree to two gospels. But to show everyone why I do not think it is right to disagree in this very issue, for this issue is not like the end times doctrines which many disagree on, this doctrine is the one doctrine which will cause one to enter eternity with God, or cause one to be lost forever.
F
I never said anything about "agreeing with two gospels" or that we should agree or whatever your saying. That about being ugly to each other, we dont have to agree in order not to be ugly, that was this is about.
There is no reason to be ugly if both sides notice neither are fighting FOR sin. That was all I was saying, then we should be able to discuss our different views in a Christian manner. Never said anything like "it's okay to agree to two gospels".
I said the strawmen on both sides are the reasons the arguments turn so ugly. Not including the discussions me and you have had. They turn ugly no matter what, I am talking about the majority of others.
I was not including you in anything I was saying. I dont think we could agree on much concerning salvation. Maybe another area, but no this one.
There is no reason to be ugly if both sides notice neither are fighting FOR sin. That was all I was saying, then we should be able to discuss our different views in a Christian manner. Never said anything like "it's okay to agree to two gospels".
I said the strawmen on both sides are the reasons the arguments turn so ugly. Not including the discussions me and you have had. They turn ugly no matter what, I am talking about the majority of others.
I was not including you in anything I was saying. I dont think we could agree on much concerning salvation. Maybe another area, but no this one.
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E
you still did not get the point I was making. I don't know why I bother. but I was not expecting you to get it, just hoping others would.
this is a salvic issue. One of us is right, one of us is wrong
this is not a doctrine we should take lightly. the one who is wrong is headed to eternal darkness. and for someone to just say it is ok to believe their doctrine is ok, would be telling others who may not have made up their mind it is ok to believe either way,
with this in mind. there will be arguments, their will be heated discussion (neither paul, any of the apostles, or Jesus took these things lightly. Paul as much as damned anyone who was teaching a different gospel. which i would say are pretty harsh words. and not a (lets talk in peace) type of discussion.) and number 4, Satan is at work here. It is his largest battle, and thus will be the harshest of battles fought between those who are truly of God and those who have not yet found God, but are still stuck on the outside with the false belief of a false hope.
I don't want to fight, I don't even want the crap that is between you and I. I want people to listen to me and understand what I believe, and not judge me. as I am sure you do, and not get angry when someone shows you why we can not believe as you do, but understand why (civil discussions) And all of us to look at things with open hearts, and understand that maybe 80 % of the stuff we believe we are in 100 % agreement on. so lets see why we can not agree on the other 20 %, Because the only other option is unthinkable. that is we both are in error. and neither of us are going to heaven. And the only ones who will go to heaven are the people who teach the third gospel. which is I can merely believe in God and do not have to do anything else, I can live as I always have, and God will still save me (licentiousness) for there is NO OTHER OPTION.
this is a salvic issue. One of us is right, one of us is wrong
this is not a doctrine we should take lightly. the one who is wrong is headed to eternal darkness. and for someone to just say it is ok to believe their doctrine is ok, would be telling others who may not have made up their mind it is ok to believe either way,
with this in mind. there will be arguments, their will be heated discussion (neither paul, any of the apostles, or Jesus took these things lightly. Paul as much as damned anyone who was teaching a different gospel. which i would say are pretty harsh words. and not a (lets talk in peace) type of discussion.) and number 4, Satan is at work here. It is his largest battle, and thus will be the harshest of battles fought between those who are truly of God and those who have not yet found God, but are still stuck on the outside with the false belief of a false hope.
I don't want to fight, I don't even want the crap that is between you and I. I want people to listen to me and understand what I believe, and not judge me. as I am sure you do, and not get angry when someone shows you why we can not believe as you do, but understand why (civil discussions) And all of us to look at things with open hearts, and understand that maybe 80 % of the stuff we believe we are in 100 % agreement on. so lets see why we can not agree on the other 20 %, Because the only other option is unthinkable. that is we both are in error. and neither of us are going to heaven. And the only ones who will go to heaven are the people who teach the third gospel. which is I can merely believe in God and do not have to do anything else, I can live as I always have, and God will still save me (licentiousness) for there is NO OTHER OPTION.