THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

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H

haz

Guest
#41
I could never even begin to think in terms of not obeying Him. Now, again, I am still as Paul described, that wretched man that I am, but I live in grace where I may falter, and we all falter.


Obedience is giving thanks and praise to our Maker while disobedience is the same a witch craft or idolatry. There is no disputing this because Yahweh, God, says so, amen.

Hi JaumeJ,

I don't really understand your message and am hoping you can clarify what you mean as it seems contradictory.


Above you say "I could never even begin to think in terms of not obeying Him", but in the very next sentence you describe yourself as a "wretched man" due to the fact you "falter" (disobey the commandments). You also described this disobedience as "the same as "witch craft or idolatry". Can you see the contradiction?

Can you explain how it's possible you could never begin to think in terms of not obeying God yet disobeying anyway, such that you refer to yourself as a "wretched man" doing the "same as witchcraft or idolatry"?



It is certain one could write volumes on obeying God's commandments and on not having to live as well as we are able by them, yet in the Word it is those who "keep the commandments of God" who are mentioned in Revelation.

Although we are blessed by the commandments of God, we keep in mind we are living in grace by the Blood of Jesus. As also mentioned in Revelation, those with the patience of the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
Please correct me if I misunderstand you, but are you saying that salvation is determined or proved by keeping the commandments, and the faith of Jesus?
Yet you yourself admitted that you still disobey them (falter) such that you are a "wretched man". You certainly don't seem to be condemning yourself here which suggests you may not understand some of the scriptures your quoting.


I'm curious what you think of the thief on the cross who was saved without any obedience to the law?
How does this fit in with Rev 12:17 & 14:12.


blessings
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,280
6,565
113
#42
Hi JaumeJ,

I don't really understand your message and am hoping you can clarify what you mean as it seems contradictory.

Above you say "I could never even begin to think in terms of not obeying Him", but in the very next sentence you describe yourself as a "wretched man" due to the fact you "falter"(disobey the commandments). You also described this disobedience as "the same as "witch craft or idolatry". Can you see the contradiction?

Can you explain how it's possible you could never begin to think in terms of not obeying God yet disobeying anyway, such that you refer to yourself as a "wretched man" doing the "same as witchcraft or idolatry"?




Please correct me if I misunderstand you, but are you saying that salvation is determined or proved by keeping the commandments, and the faith of Jesus?
Yet you yourself admitted that you still disobey them (falter) such that you are a "wretched man". You certainly don't seem to be condemning yourself here which suggests you may not understand some of the scriptures your quoting.


I'm curious what you think of the thief on the cross who was saved without any obedience to the law?
How does this fit in with Rev 12:17 & 14:12.

blessings
We are no longer living in habitual sin.

I am free of all sin because of Jesus, Yeshua, and I obey with my heart and soul, but there are times when that sinful nature which dwells in all men (Romans) causes us to do the very thing(s) we hate, become angry for no righteous reason, think in terms we should not and more.

We are still human after we are saved, but our sin is not held against us. We are no longer living in sin, nor are we habitual sinners, but when we err, for any breaking of any of the law is breaking all of the law, we have That Mediator between us and the Father. Why do you think we need be taught of the Mediator except that it is common knowledge we need Him every day?

We do not sin deliberately, but as John teaches we cannot say we are completely without sin. It is the guilt of sin from which we are pardoned by the Blood.

Now, I have explained to the best of my ability as learned from the Word, but it is always best to make your determinations from the Word, Itself, for with the Holy Spirit leading us It is perfect. Romans chapter 7 covers what I am attempting to convey far better than I ever could. I have pasted the last part of the discourse here below covering the subject. You may want to read it in a different version of the Book if you do not use KJV.......God bless you always....

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,280
6,565
113
#43
Here is a thought, and it is pretty simple. Think about people who are saved. Now eliminate in your mind those who are not yet perfect. That would be all of them!

Being saved makes the commandments so wonderful, for we no longer need fear the law for we are free of the result of breaking it, death.

Now we see how the commandments light our way in that we may refer to them without fear.

Our Father's wishes become our delight. We follow them as best possible until that day when we are finished, rather His work in us is finished and we are perfect. Oh what a Great and Glorious Day, that Day of the Lord, amen.
 
H

haz

Guest
#44
Hi JaumeJ,

Please bear with me as what your saying does not correspond much with scripture.

What determines this "habitual" sin you speak of? Is doing the same offense in excess of 7x70 the measure of "habitual"? Is there any scripture that supports this "habitual" sin you speak of?

John 8:34 says that anyone who sins is a "servant of sin".
1John 3:6-9 says Christians "cannot sin" and that anyone who does sin is "of the devil"
1Pet 4:1 says Christians have "ceased from sin"
This contradicts the view that Christians can still "sin" in any way, let alone not do "habitual" sin.

Also, can you answer that earlier question too? What do you think of the thief on the cross who was saved without any obedience to the law? Hows does that fit in with Rev 12:17 & 14:12?

Thanks,


 
Jul 27, 2011
1,622
89
0
#45
Zephaniah 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.
4 For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up.
5 Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the Lord is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant.
6 And the sea coast shall be dwellings and cottages for shepherds, and folds for flocks.
7 And the coast shall be for the remnant of the house of Judah; they shall feed thereupon: in the houses of Ashkelon shall they lie down in the evening: for the Lord their God shall visit them, and turn away their captivity.
8 I have heard the reproach of Moab, and the revilings of the children of Ammon, whereby they have reproached my people, and magnified themselves against their border.
9 Therefore as I live, saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.
10 This shall they have for their pride, because they have reproached and magnified themselves against the people of the Lord of hosts.
11 The Lord will be terrible unto them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen.
12 Ye Ethiopians also, ye shall be slain by my sword.
13 And he will stretch out his hand against the north, and destroy Assyria; and will make Nineveh a desolation, and dry like a wilderness.
14 And flocks shall lie down in the midst of her, all the beasts of the nations: both the cormorant and the bittern shall lodge in the upper lintels of it; their voice shall sing in the windows; desolation shall be in the thresholds; for he shall uncover the cedar work.
15 This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.




Zephaniah 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city!
2 She obeyed not the voice; she received not correction; she trusted not in the Lord; she drew not near to her God.
3 Her princes within her are roaring lions; her judges are evening wolves; they gnaw not the bones till the morrow.
4 Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have done violence to the law.
5 The just Lord is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame.
6 I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.
7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.
8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent.
10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.
11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord.
13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
15 The Lord hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the Lord, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.
18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.
19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the Lord.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,280
6,565
113
#46
Hi JaumeJ,

Please bear with me as what your saying does not correspond much with scripture.

What determines this "habitual" sin you speak of? Is doing the same offense in excess of 7x70 the measure of "habitual"? Is there any scripture that supports this "habitual" sin you speak of?

John 8:34 says that anyone who sins is a "servant of sin".
1John 3:6-9 says Christians "cannot sin" and that anyone who does sin is "of the devil"
1Pet 4:1 says Christians have "ceased from sin"
This contradicts the view that Christians can still "sin" in any way, let alone not do "habitual" sin.

Also, can you answer that earlier question too? What do you think of the thief on the cross who was saved without any obedience to the law? Hows does that fit in with Rev 12:17 & 14:12?

Thanks,
Perhaps the word, nature, will convey this. Our nature has been changed. I will go into the Word to find my particular reference though........God bless you. Our new man is repulsed by the idea of living in sin, our new nature is to not sin. I need not go into what the old man was like, or nature, or habitual way.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#47
My heart has been touched by some of the Testimonies given here. Praise the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I came to this truth differently, After I left my Pentecostalism I searched for truth in the word of God. Then I found the Seventh Day Adventist church. I joined them because they upheld the obedience to God. I had learned from my own Study that Gods 10 commandments are to be kept. And this church promoted that teaching so I joined.

However As time went on I realized that they while teaching to keep the commandments, did not in practice. I also found myself powerless to keep them even though I desperately wanted to.

However that all changed when I met a specific Adventist who challenged me. So one night at about 2 am I woke and prayed for God to show me the way. I then read Romans chapter 1-9. The Spirit opened my understanding and I saw things I had not seen before, even though I had read it before many times.

I decided to do the same thing the next day and at 2 am I got up and prayed for some time, then I read chapters 6,7 and 8. The Spirit again came upon me and gave me understanding. I suddenly saw my sin like I had not seen it before. I suddenly realized my sins put Jesus on the cross. My sins still brought dishonor on my savior who had overcome sin for me. I saw clearly that Jesus died not only to forgive me but to empower me to turn from sin. to be free. I could see while I accepted his forgiveness, I had not accepted His power to change my heart and make me obedient. I was daily bringing dishonor to the very one I claimed to follow.

I began to weep and my heart broke so that I literally felt the pain as if I had just freshly put those nails through His hands. I left the house while it was still dark and got in my car, tears streaming down my face. I drove to a place in the bush where i liked to go to be alone. its was still dark. I fell broken before God like never before.

I confessed every sin I could think of and cried out for His mercy and power to no longer walk in the sins that I had so shamed my savior with. I don't know how long I was there pouring my heart out to God. but I did not open my eyes or dare leave that place until I felt I had claimed the promise of His Spirit to keep me form walking in the flesh any longer. It was sun up when I opened my eyes.

I got up believing that my God had heard me and had forgiven me. I believed that He would keep me from sin. I walked about 10 meters from the spot where I was praying. Suddenly the atmosphere around me changed and I felt such a joy come over me like nothing I had ever felt before. I fell to my knees and words of praise came form my mouth. This continued for I don't know how long, time seemed lost to me. Then my mouth was stopped and suddenly a wind rose and encircled me with leaves blowing, as if I were in the center of a wirlewind. Then I heard a voice that seemed to come from every direction at once. It was both soft and tender yet full of power. I can not really explain it. Go spoke to me and said these few short words. "I am with you, now walk in my ways".

My life has never been the same. I have learned that His Grace is sufficient for me. His sacrifice is my only plea, And His commandments are me delight. I now understand how David said the things he did about the law of God in Psalm 119. The longest chapter in the bible is praise for Gods law.

Yet this truth while so freeing to me and my wife who is also walking in it. while it is my greatest joy to obey my God by His power in me. I am pained for my brothers and sisters. I try to give them this hope and this freedom and they fight me as If I were trying to destroy them. but I have found a power in Jesus that I want the world to have.

Even my own fellow Seventh Day Adventists. the preachers of the law, are against me. because as much as they profess with the mouth, their deeds are the same as every other christian. I know that when I speak of the law of God here that people will deride and think me to be in bondage. and think that I am trying to put them in bondage. but that is not my want. when we are truly free in Jesus then the impossible becomes reality in our heart.

I praise Jesus who alone is my delight and the Father who also loves me. He is my strength. I can do nothing, I am the greatest of sinners, but in Christ I am a new creature, not just in word, but deed also. my very thoughts changed in His power. I will boast in Jesus and Him crucified. and I will lift up His law even If I am hated for it. because His law is a law of liberty. great is our God.
The Law brings people to Christ. It brought you to Christ, and it brought me to Christ.

Once we have come to Christ we know there is something much better to follow. His Holy Spirit.

The Letter is unto death. But the Spirit is unto Life.

We can't live in Victory if we keep going back to the Law, whose sole purpose is to bring you to Christ, so you will have LIFE!!

Only when you are in Christ Jesus following His Holy Spirit are you obeying the Law.

When you look back to the Law to try to obey it in your will and your flesh you have fallen from grace and you sin. Don't you know this?

I'm not against God's Law. I never have been. I'm just against the way people try to follow it. It is the strangest thing to me that the only way to obey His Law is to turn away from it and follow the Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit.

You know, as well as I do, that if we could have been perfect before Him in the power of our own will and flesh we would have. Our will and flesh failed us. Don't go back to it.

All these words. One man can't really say this to another and expect to be heard. Only the Lord Jesus can show a man this Truth. Wisdom and Knowledge are available to us through prayer and His Word.

People are on certain paths and only God Knows His intention for them. I try to help but you know what they say about good intentions... I hope I do help. If I have offended I hope you understand and forgive...

Love You...
Grandpa
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,280
6,565
113
#48
The Law brings people to Christ. It brought you to Christ, and it brought me to Christ.

Once we have come to Christ we know there is something much better to follow. His Holy Spirit.

The Letter is unto death. But the Spirit is unto Life.

We can't live in Victory if we keep going back to the Law, whose sole purpose is to bring you to Christ, so you will have LIFE!!

Only when you are in Christ Jesus following His Holy Spirit are you obeying the Law.

When you look back to the Law to try to obey it in your will and your flesh you have fallen from grace and you sin. Don't you know this?

I'm not against God's Law. I never have been. I'm just against the way people try to follow it. It is the strangest thing to me that the only way to obey His Law is to turn away from it and follow the Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit.

You know, as well as I do, that if we could have been perfect before Him in the power of our own will and flesh we would have. Our will and flesh failed us. Don't go back to it.

All these words. One man can't really say this to another and expect to be heard. Only the Lord Jesus can show a man this Truth. Wisdom and Knowledge are available to us through prayer and His Word.

People are on certain paths and only God Knows His intention for them. I try to help but you know what they say about good intentions... I hope I do help. If I have offended I hope you understand and forgive...

Love You...
Grandpa
What tears my heart apart is that when people come to Jesus, Yeshua and they are given the free gift of salvation and heaven they do not understand the commandments, not the myriad of ceremonial laws, are the beginning of instructions, the teacher, of how to begin to love as God is Love and would have us love. The Ten Commandments are a delight once we are free of the curse of the law, death.
To teach against any of these commandments jeopardizes our very being in the Kingdom. The commandments are light without the curse of them which was nailed to the cross with Our Savior. He is our example, and He obeyed not only the Ten commandments but He fulfilled all of the laws of Moses, every one.
So if there are 613 laws, and we only have the Ten Commandments to light the way to love here, what is the problem with the Ten? Each one reflects the Two Great Laws of Love, and those are commandments.
Keep in mind the warnings from John in his letters and in the Revelation from God that whoever claims to love God and does not keep His commandments is not true to Him, and does not love.
Obeying is a delight in grace.
Bottom line, what is the wrong in wanting to please God? Tell me please.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,280
6,565
113
#49
No one in good conscience in the sight of Yeshua, Jesus would ever teach against any of the commandments of God.
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Rom 3:29[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Is he[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] the God of the Jews only? [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]is he[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Rom 3:30[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] Seeing [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]it is[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Rom 3:31[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. [/FONT]
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][/FONT]
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]We are warned, if we love in Yeshua, Jesus, to keep the commandments of God.[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]1Jn 2:1[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]1Jn 2:2[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]the sins of[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] the whole world. [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]1Jn 2:3[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]1Jn 2:4[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]1Jn 2:5[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [/FONT]
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][/FONT]
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Do not lose the promises of God simply because He has shown us what is good conduct in His sight by the commandments! After all, we are saved by grace with faith in His only Son. The least we all can do is hear and do what He would like us to do. In obedience is love perfected, and in the commandments of the Father is wisdom. Please hear Him.[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Rev 12:17[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Rev 14:11[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Rev 14:12[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] Here is the patience of the saints: here [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]are[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Rev 22:12[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]is[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Rev 22:13[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]
[/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Rev 22:14[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] Blessed [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]are[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][FONT=@Arial Unicode MS] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [/FONT]
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS][/FONT]
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]Please do not just disregard all of these verses on the importance of obeying the Father. Obedience in thanksgiving is all we may offer our Maker, everything else is from Him because He loves us. Please, since we are freed from the curse (death) of the law, let us do what our beloved Father wishes.[/FONT]
[FONT=@Arial Unicode MS]When our Lord returns, will He find faith? Love Him, believe Him, obey Him, for nothing He requires of us is harmful, nothing.[/FONT]
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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#50
What tears my heart apart is that when people come to Jesus, Yeshua and they are given the free gift of salvation and heaven they do not understand the commandments, not the myriad of ceremonial laws, are the beginning of instructions, the teacher, of how to begin to love as God is Love and would have us love. The Ten Commandments are a delight once we are free of the curse of the law, death.
To teach against any of these commandments jeopardizes our very being in the Kingdom. The commandments are light without the curse of them which was nailed to the cross with Our Savior. He is our example, and He obeyed not only the Ten commandments but He fulfilled all of the laws of Moses, every one.

So if there are 613 laws, and we only have the Ten Commandments to light the way to love here, what is the problem with the Ten? Each one reflects the Two Great Laws of Love, and those are commandments.
Keep in mind the warnings from John in his letters and in the Revelation from God that whoever claims to love God and does not keep His commandments is not true to Him, and does not love.
Obeying is a delight in grace.
Bottom line, what is the wrong in wanting to please God? Tell me please.
You're almost there JaumeJ, you're asking the right questions. How do we please God??

In the flesh in our own will??

Or by following Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit?

Even among saved Christians no one can look at the 10 commandents and call themselves perfectly obedient. What we can do is acknowledge it and instead look to Jesus Christ and seek His Face, seek His mercy and forgiveness.

The 10 commandments aren't a delight.
Romans 7:7-11
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

His Love for us is a delight. By His Love we are able to Love. He showed us how.

It wasn't the Law that caused Him to Love. He Loved and that is what 'kept' the Law. Its not the Law that causes us to Love either. His Holy Spirit is what causes us to Love.

Look at the fruits of the spirit. How are these produced? That should be our focus as Christians. That is what pleases God.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,280
6,565
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#51
Only God is Good, and only Jesus Christ was perfect, but to say we are not to strive to obey the commandments is contrary to the teaching of Jesus, Yeshua, and the Love of the Father. We are no longer to fear the law because we live in grace. And YES, the commandments are a joy when we truly know Salvation, because the curse, death, has been removed. Again, it is taught for a reason we have an Advocate, Yeshua, it is mentioned when John teaches that obeying the Law brings us to perfect the love that comes from God. These words are not taught to be ignored.

It is very easy to ask people who know to obey God if they are perfect, but it takes more than a clever come back to know to please and obey Yahweh, God.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#52
Only God is Good, and only Jesus Christ was perfect, but to say we are not to strive to obey the commandments is contrary to the teaching of Jesus, Yeshua, and the Love of the Father. We are no longer to fear the law because we live in grace. And YES, the commandments are a joy when we truly know Salvation, because the curse, death, has been removed. Again, it is taught for a reason we have an Advocate, Yeshua, it is mentioned when John teaches that obeying the Law brings us to perfect the love that comes from God. These words are not taught to be ignored.

It is very easy to ask people who know to obey God if they are perfect, but it takes more than a clever come back to know to please and obey Yahweh, God.
You think I am just trying to be clever?

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

All ye who are striving to obey the 10 commandments and are heavily laden with sin...

 
W

webchatter

Guest
#53
Jaumej, I agree that the Ten commandments are still to be followed.( & other commands given in the new testament.) I agree that the other laws of the old testament would be difficult to follow today, but still unnecessasary due to the fact that our Messiah has completed the task providing for salvation.
I'm surprised you would get any disagreement there. I too, though not At all perfect either, find it no burden to follow the 10 commandments. Then posters come in & want to change the direction of your thread & discuss their theology on sin. So I won't respond to any criticism of my also saying it's not a burden to me to follow the 10 commandments, that is for another thread. (sorry some find it difficult to imagine).
I saw comments referring to Abraham's sons & their "inheritance" on this thread also. This also could be another thread because I see a whole other interpretation of these passages. They may have a message to you, but are prophetic in nature to me, & refer to today's world events, some in that chapter were on cnn a few yrs ago, quoted by Osama Bin Laden on videotape sitting in front of a cave with a gun beside him.(his religion believes the inheritance is theirs, not Issac's descendants or Christian's). These verses refer to the current situation in their trying to take their "inheritance"-Israel by force because God said the Inheritance,Israel belonged in previous verses to Abraham's first born son. Since Ishmae,l(Islamic founde/muslim today), was born of the flesh & was illigitimate, God said to cast the boy out, & Issac recieves the inheritance/literal Israel.
 
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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,280
6,565
113
#54
I have never considered we should continue with the 613 laws, but the commandments of the Father are good and good to guide us along the Way given us freely by Jesus, Yeshua. To say we are to deliberately disobey the commandments is anti-Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

Anyone teaching disobedience is in darkness. Where is the wrong in obedience? Disobedience is idolatry...........God says so.

Here it is in a nutshell, obey God. If this is too difficult to understand, learn from Jesus. Learn from John. Learn from Paul, but do not teach against obedience.

Do not say the commandments are the same as the laws, because they simply are not. This is the hook many use to mislead the faithful, and it is heartbreaking to hear the faithful repeating this misguidance.

My firming up of the faith is due to the love I have encountered in this room, and it hurts to think some may be enticed into disobedience. Even the children of this age are expected to be obedient, how much more the children of eternity, the children of God?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,090
191
63
#55
You think I am just trying to be clever?

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

All ye who are striving to obey the 10 commandments and are heavily laden with sin...

Maybe the word "strive" makes it seem like our own effort and energy...

It is the Holy Spirit that empowers us to obey the 10 Commandments.

The word strive could make it seem like a heavy burden.

The power of Love a gift from above :)
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#56
actually the bible says whatever isnt of faith is sin.
also He hates a conscience that isnt pure.
you cant fool or quiet your conscience...just sear it.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#57
I love the words of a man who kept the 10 commandments out of love for God. He was asked this question in 1840.

8. Do you avow the belief, that you are generally without sin, in thought, desire, word, deed, or defect?

This question was asked by the Presbyterian church, This man came from the congregationalist church.

Here is his reply to This question.

You ask me, finally, concerning myself. Here, dear brother, I speak with unfeigned diffidence. I love to look at my Saviour, and to hold Him forth in all His fullness to my needy, perishing fellow men. But in myself, aside from what the grace of God has done, and shall do for me, I find nothing but the dark and perfect lineaments of Beelzebub, the prince of devils. I speak sincerely, my brother. I know that if God should withdraw His grace from me, and leave me to myself, there is not a sin within reach of my powers, which I would not instantly commit and practice forever.
And now, having told you what I think of myself, to my own shame, permit me to tell you that I think of the grace of God, to his praise. God has promised to “dwell in me, and walk in me, and be my God” (2 Corinthians 6:16), and this I consider a pledge of every possible good which He can give me. “Having therefore such promises,” I expect, by trusting in Christ, that they will be fulfilled to me for His sake, “to be cleansed from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, and to perfect holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).
My God has sworn that He will grant me, that I, being delivered out of the hand of my enemies, may serve Him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of my life; and He has raised up Jesus Christ to be my horn of salvation, to perform to me this mercy promised to our fathers, to remember this holy covenant, this oath which He swear. I do therefore ex-
(27)
pect, through the strength and faithfulness of my Lord Jesus Christ, in performing to me this holy covenant and oath of God, to be delivered out of the hand of my enemies, and to serve God without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him, all the days of my life. I expect that He, according to His own promise, will be faithful to sanctify me wholly, and to preserve my whole spirit, and soul, and body, blameless, unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. In myself, I am nothing but a miserable, lost sinner; but in my Saviour “dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,” and He has made me “complete in Him.” (Colossians 2:9, 10). I therefore expect to “abide in Him;” and “Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6).

This man understood Sin to be breaking the 10 commandments. This is just one small part of a letter he wrote to them explaining his position and how Jesus frees us and it is seen in obedience to all 10 of the commandments.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#58
Exodus 20:1-2 KJV
(1) And God spake all these words, saying,
(2) I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

The 10 commandments start with these verses. God took them out of bondage before He gave the 10 commandments. He took them out of bondage to keep the Law
Deuteronomy 17:19 KJV
(19) And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

John 8:34-36 KJV
(34) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
(35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
(36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 15:10 KJV
(10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus has set us free from the bondage of sin so we may keep the Law. Why?
Romans 7:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.





 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#59
Maybe the word "strive" makes it seem like our own effort and energy...

It is the Holy Spirit that empowers us to obey the 10 Commandments.

The word strive could make it seem like a heavy burden.

The power of Love a gift from above :)
Well I agree with this.

But I go further and say you can't keep looking to the Law to obey it. You must look to Jesus Christ and abide in Him.

If you look to the Law it shows you your sin, every time, all the time.

Romans 7:22-23
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Galatians 3:11-12
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

When we abide in Christ we are not looking back at the Law to see how our performance is stacking up. When we abide in Christ, by faith, He produces fruit in us. Among them, or chiefest of them, is Love.

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

That is the only reason that saved Christians aren't under the Law. It is because there is no Law against the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Do you see? Walk in the Spirit (Love) and you won't break the commandments.

There is no other way to obey the 10 commandments and please God.

Love You...
Grandpa
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,280
6,565
113
#60
Well I agree with this.

But I go further and say you can't keep looking to the Law to obey it. You must look to Jesus Christ and abide in Him.

If you look to the Law it shows you your sin, every time, all the time.

Romans 7:22-23
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Galatians 3:11-12
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

When we abide in Christ we are not looking back at the Law to see how our performance is stacking up. When we abide in Christ, by faith, He produces fruit in us. Among them, or chiefest of them, is Love.

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

That is the only reason that saved Christians aren't under the Law. It is because there is no Law against the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Do you see? Walk in the Spirit (Love) and you won't break the commandments.

There is no other way to obey the 10 commandments and please God.

Love You...
Grandpa
Commandments are the desire of our Father in our actions. The laws are ceremonial, diet and behavior in life. With the Laws of Love in mind and heart it is very easy to discern which of them are to be learned and followed. The easiest method is following the Example of Jesus, Yeshua, Who did not break one law and obeyed all of the commandments. We have Him also as our Mediator to the Father for any time we may falter, meanwhile, according to Jesus we are to obey the Commandments of the Father. Anyone even approaching teaching otherwise is jeopardizing his/her place in Heaven. No one who believes Jesus will find fault in obeying the Father, no one.