-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T
Re: Your'e royally stuck!!!
No answer? That's fine, I was just interested.
There's still one small problem with your explanation. The 'they' in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version of Genesis 48:16 isn't directed towards Abraham and Isaac, the 'they' is referring to Ephraim and Manasseh, the boys being blessed by Jacob.
Again, is there anything else in the context, Bowman?
No answer? That's fine, I was just interested.
There's still one small problem with your explanation. The 'they' in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version of Genesis 48:16 isn't directed towards Abraham and Isaac, the 'they' is referring to Ephraim and Manasseh, the boys being blessed by Jacob.
Again, is there anything else in the context, Bowman?
Re: Your'e royally stuck!!!
Does that mean that you want to abandon Gen 48.16 after you have invested so much of your energy into it?
You claimed that you wanted to stick to this verse, alone, not go running to others verses when you find yourself in a pinch.
You will just have to learn to discipline yourself.
Now that would be a very small problem indeed, since the direct context is with Abraham and Isaac to multiply.
Does that mean that you want to abandon Gen 48.16 after you have invested so much of your energy into it?
You claimed that you wanted to stick to this verse, alone, not go running to others verses when you find yourself in a pinch.
You will just have to learn to discipline yourself.
Now that would be a very small problem indeed, since the direct context is with Abraham and Isaac to multiply.
T
Re: Your'e royally stuck!!!
I guess this is just more confusion...and I know you want to get to the truth and not get bogged down in all kinds of pointless distractions in the way of that. So allow me to spell out the context. From the New English Translation of the Septuagint:
"Then when Ioseph had taken his two sons, both Ephraim in his right hand but on Israel's left, and Manasse in his left hand but on Israel's right, he brought them near him. But Israel, stretching out his right hand, laid it on the head of Ephraim--now he was the younger--and his left on the head of Manasse, his hands crosswise. And he blessed them and said,
"'The God whom my fathers Abraam and Isaak were well pleasing before, the God who sustains me from my youth to this day, the angel who rescues me from all evils, bless these youngsters, and in them my name will be invoked, and the name of my fathers Abraam and Isaak, and may they be multiplied into a great multitude upon the earth.'" (Genesis 48:12-16)
The blessing is upon Ephraim and Mannasseh, Bowman. They are the ones being blessed to be multiplied, which was fulfilled in the tribes that formed from their offspring. Abraham and Isaac are simply invoked in behalf of these two. Do you agree with this, or are you staked in already?
I guess this is just more confusion...and I know you want to get to the truth and not get bogged down in all kinds of pointless distractions in the way of that. So allow me to spell out the context. From the New English Translation of the Septuagint:
"Then when Ioseph had taken his two sons, both Ephraim in his right hand but on Israel's left, and Manasse in his left hand but on Israel's right, he brought them near him. But Israel, stretching out his right hand, laid it on the head of Ephraim--now he was the younger--and his left on the head of Manasse, his hands crosswise. And he blessed them and said,
"'The God whom my fathers Abraam and Isaak were well pleasing before, the God who sustains me from my youth to this day, the angel who rescues me from all evils, bless these youngsters, and in them my name will be invoked, and the name of my fathers Abraam and Isaak, and may they be multiplied into a great multitude upon the earth.'" (Genesis 48:12-16)
The blessing is upon Ephraim and Mannasseh, Bowman. They are the ones being blessed to be multiplied, which was fulfilled in the tribes that formed from their offspring. Abraham and Isaac are simply invoked in behalf of these two. Do you agree with this, or are you staked in already?
ALTER2EGO -to- BOWMAN:
I asked you six direct questions that you are now evading. That speaks volumes.
The verse at 1 Peter 3:18 is with reference to what happened after Jesus Christ was resurrected--three days after he'd been dead. Below are three questions dealing with Jesus' death. Notice the words in bold print within the scriptural quotation.
"{3} For I handed on to you, among the first things, that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; {4} and he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures; (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
QUESTION #7 to BOWMAN: According to 1 Corinthians 15:4, Jesus was not raised from the dead until the third day. Are you telling this forum that He was alive in the spirit all that time, which would amount to he wasn't really dead?
QUESTION #8 to BOWMAN: Should I believe you when you tell me that Jesus was alive in the spirit during the three days the Bible says he was stone cold dead and no longer conscious? Or should I believe God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, which says he was dead the entire time?
QUESTION #9 to BOWMAN: What purpose would there have been of a resurrection on the third day, if Jesus Christ immediately became alive in the spirit the instant he died?
I asked you six direct questions that you are now evading. That speaks volumes.
The verse at 1 Peter 3:18 is with reference to what happened after Jesus Christ was resurrected--three days after he'd been dead. Below are three questions dealing with Jesus' death. Notice the words in bold print within the scriptural quotation.
"{3} For I handed on to you, among the first things, that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; {4} and he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures; (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
QUESTION #7 to BOWMAN: According to 1 Corinthians 15:4, Jesus was not raised from the dead until the third day. Are you telling this forum that He was alive in the spirit all that time, which would amount to he wasn't really dead?
QUESTION #8 to BOWMAN: Should I believe you when you tell me that Jesus was alive in the spirit during the three days the Bible says he was stone cold dead and no longer conscious? Or should I believe God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, which says he was dead the entire time?
QUESTION #9 to BOWMAN: What purpose would there have been of a resurrection on the third day, if Jesus Christ immediately became alive in the spirit the instant he died?
T
I'm not sure what this means, feedm3. This was my last post to you, from a week ago: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...estions-jehovahs-witnesses-11.html#post834305
T
Re: Keep trying TJ...
Whoa there, Bowman. Remember we're talking about the Greek Septuagint (LXX)? (I'm trying to be certain to specify that in every post so that we don't get all these pesky distractions that somehow keep showing up.) The 'they' is referring to the boys Ephraim and Manasseh.
Again, is there anything else in the context that tells you how to understand the singular 'onoma'?
Whoa there, Bowman. Remember we're talking about the Greek Septuagint (LXX)? (I'm trying to be certain to specify that in every post so that we don't get all these pesky distractions that somehow keep showing up.) The 'they' is referring to the boys Ephraim and Manasseh.
Again, is there anything else in the context that tells you how to understand the singular 'onoma'?
Run from it...
The verse at 1 Peter 3:18 is with reference to what happened after Jesus Christ was resurrected--three days after he'd been dead. Below are three questions dealing with Jesus' death. Notice the words in bold print within the scriptural quotation.
"{3} For I handed on to you, among the first things, that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; {4} and he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures; (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
QUESTION #7 to BOWMAN: According to 1 Corinthians 15:4, Jesus was not raised from the dead until the third day. Are you telling this forum that He was alive in the spirit all that time, which would amount to he wasn't really dead?
QUESTION #8 to BOWMAN: Should I believe you when you tell me that Jesus was alive in the spirit during the three days the Bible says he was stone cold dead and no longer conscious? Or should I believe God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, which says he was dead the entire time?
QUESTION #9 to BOWMAN: What purpose would there have been of a resurrection on the third day, if Jesus Christ immediately became alive in the spirit the instant he died?
All of your questions asked the same thing..of which, I gave you a succinct scriptural reply.
Deal with it...
The verse at 1 Peter 3:18 is with reference to what happened after Jesus Christ was resurrected--three days after he'd been dead. Below are three questions dealing with Jesus' death. Notice the words in bold print within the scriptural quotation.
"{3} For I handed on to you, among the first things, that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; {4} and he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures; (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
QUESTION #7 to BOWMAN: According to 1 Corinthians 15:4, Jesus was not raised from the dead until the third day. Are you telling this forum that He was alive in the spirit all that time, which would amount to he wasn't really dead?
QUESTION #8 to BOWMAN: Should I believe you when you tell me that Jesus was alive in the spirit during the three days the Bible says he was stone cold dead and no longer conscious? Or should I believe God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, which says he was dead the entire time?
QUESTION #9 to BOWMAN: What purpose would there have been of a resurrection on the third day, if Jesus Christ immediately became alive in the spirit the instant he died?
All of your questions asked the same thing..of which, I gave you a succinct scriptural reply.
Deal with it...
T
Re: Keep trying TJ...
Well that's rather evasive.
Bowman, are you saying that the Jewish translators of the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version of Genesis 48:16 gave a Greek rendering that required Abraham and Isaac to be understood as two persons in one being, by referring to both with the singular word 'onoma'? If not, why not?
Well that's rather evasive.
Bowman, are you saying that the Jewish translators of the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version of Genesis 48:16 gave a Greek rendering that required Abraham and Isaac to be understood as two persons in one being, by referring to both with the singular word 'onoma'? If not, why not?
ALTER2EGO -to- BOWMAN:
You admitted it! "No one has ever seen God the Father and lived." That says it all. All that other stuff that you said in follow-up is contradictory and irrelevant.
BTW: There are no scriptures in the Old Testament during which God literally manifested himself in human form. But then again, maybe you know something the rest of us don't know. So please post a few such scriptures for the benefit of the forum. Be sure and provide Bible book, chapter, and verse so that I can confirm it in my own copy of the Bible. Meanwhile, below is another question for you.
QUESTION #10 to BOWMAN: If Jesus Christ is Jehovah the Father in the flesh, what does that do for the scripture that says no man has seen God at anytime? Jesus Christ is also Jehovah God the Father; remember?
You admitted it! "No one has ever seen God the Father and lived." That says it all. All that other stuff that you said in follow-up is contradictory and irrelevant.
BTW: There are no scriptures in the Old Testament during which God literally manifested himself in human form. But then again, maybe you know something the rest of us don't know. So please post a few such scriptures for the benefit of the forum. Be sure and provide Bible book, chapter, and verse so that I can confirm it in my own copy of the Bible. Meanwhile, below is another question for you.
QUESTION #10 to BOWMAN: If Jesus Christ is Jehovah the Father in the flesh, what does that do for the scripture that says no man has seen God at anytime? Jesus Christ is also Jehovah God the Father; remember?
F
Well I never even saw that post, till just now, sometimes these pages fill up fast.
I thought you didn't want to speak when you said:
In which I replied, no point in me responding to what you wrote if your response was "finishing up". I mean if I said that to you what would you think?
So I did continue to read, and "like" posts, it is a forum.
Are you serious? The entire 2 chapters are NOTHING BUT power and authority. His power (omniscient - Godly attribute) to know all the churches works, sins, etc, His authority to demand repentance or face wrath.
This does nothing but show everytime it is used it is connected with power and authority:
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
This is basically how the entire chapter is written, the same tone, the same demands, the same knowledge. You dont see "power and authority" here?
In fact, thanks for bringing that out. Because really it makes perfect sense in the context to say what he's been saying to them them all, he has all authority, and hold the 7 churches in his right hand.
You explanation for why Thomas called Jesus "my Lord and my God" is a failure. He was not using OMG. You cant show where anyone in or outside of the Bible used this kind of slang, nor can you keep this from being far fetched, saying Thomas sinned as he was accepting Christ as real.
So again, can you show some support for why Thomas said this, because as it stands, He called Jesus His God. Would you also water that down to "god"?
Also again, every time John used proskenious, he spoke of worship meaning to worship, all you did was show a passage concerning the Laodiceans, and twisted that to mean they would be worshiped, or reverenced, yet it says nothing of the sort.
SO either show why you know the proskeyneo is directed to the Laoiceans, or according of your own rules, sense every time John uses the word in it's normal sense, then Jesus was worshiped in a normal sense.
Hey and another question: does or has the watchtower ever make/made mistakes?
Easy question, asked 3 times already, no response from any of you.
I thought you didn't want to speak when you said:
In which I replied, no point in me responding to what you wrote if your response was "finishing up". I mean if I said that to you what would you think?
So I did continue to read, and "like" posts, it is a forum.
Are you serious? The entire 2 chapters are NOTHING BUT power and authority. His power (omniscient - Godly attribute) to know all the churches works, sins, etc, His authority to demand repentance or face wrath.
This does nothing but show everytime it is used it is connected with power and authority:
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
This is basically how the entire chapter is written, the same tone, the same demands, the same knowledge. You dont see "power and authority" here?
In fact, thanks for bringing that out. Because really it makes perfect sense in the context to say what he's been saying to them them all, he has all authority, and hold the 7 churches in his right hand.
You explanation for why Thomas called Jesus "my Lord and my God" is a failure. He was not using OMG. You cant show where anyone in or outside of the Bible used this kind of slang, nor can you keep this from being far fetched, saying Thomas sinned as he was accepting Christ as real.
So again, can you show some support for why Thomas said this, because as it stands, He called Jesus His God. Would you also water that down to "god"?
Also again, every time John used proskenious, he spoke of worship meaning to worship, all you did was show a passage concerning the Laodiceans, and twisted that to mean they would be worshiped, or reverenced, yet it says nothing of the sort.
SO either show why you know the proskeyneo is directed to the Laoiceans, or according of your own rules, sense every time John uses the word in it's normal sense, then Jesus was worshiped in a normal sense.
Hey and another question: does or has the watchtower ever make/made mistakes?
Easy question, asked 3 times already, no response from any of you.
Last edited by a moderator:
ALTER2EGO -to-BOWMAN:
Since when is one prohibited from using modern definitions of common words in the English dictionary to define words in an English translation of the Bible?
ANSWER: Whenever it debunk's Bowman's position.
BTW: I can present you with the very same definitions from a print copy of the dictionary. The reason why I used the Internet is to enable you and others to confirm that I gave the correct definitions.
REQUEST to BOWMAN: Please present the forum with credentialed sources that say one is not to use modern internet dictionaries to define common words such as "create" and "creation" and that to do so is a sign of disrespect. Also be sure and explain who one is "disrespecting" when doing the aforementioned. Provide scriptures that says such a thing is disrespectful.
I will wait.
Since when is one prohibited from using modern definitions of common words in the English dictionary to define words in an English translation of the Bible?
ANSWER: Whenever it debunk's Bowman's position.
BTW: I can present you with the very same definitions from a print copy of the dictionary. The reason why I used the Internet is to enable you and others to confirm that I gave the correct definitions.
REQUEST to BOWMAN: Please present the forum with credentialed sources that say one is not to use modern internet dictionaries to define common words such as "create" and "creation" and that to do so is a sign of disrespect. Also be sure and explain who one is "disrespecting" when doing the aforementioned. Provide scriptures that says such a thing is disrespectful.
I will wait.
Last edited: