Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#81
Simple question.
Show through scripture, not through 'preordained' theology.
Show Me.
Hi Rick:)

2 Timothy 3
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God

10You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be competent, equipped for every good work.


anything about needing supernatural 'gifts' there?
how many good works does it say the sacred scriptures are able to equip us with?
a few, many, or every? as in every single good work?

are the good works mentioned above the same good works mentioned here?:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

what's needed for the following things?:

teaching
reproof
correction
training in righteousness
that the man of God may be competent
equipped for every good work.

what's needed?

All Scripture

why?

All Scripture is breathed out by God.

~

is paul telling timothy to perform miracles and stuff?

what does he tell him?

"continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus"

~

is there anything lacking in those instructions?
anything at all?
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#82
Nothing lacking at all.
We are in full agreement that the scriptures lead us(you and me) into all righteousness.
But I was asking about the gifts of the Spirit, as they lead to the ministering of the saints(body of Christ).
When has the gifts of the Spirit stopped being good works?-Eph 2:10.
Y
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#83
What I am saying is the Spirit is alive and a guiding force.
The Holy Bible is the foundation on which all the body of Christ is built on.
Jesus being the head.
But is a body at rest, or active?
And if it is active, what invigorates it?
The Holy Spirit, No?
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#84
And what sacred writings was Paul speaking about?
That would furnish Timothy unto every good work?
The same sacred writings that include I Cor. 12 - (written by Paul's hand);
and the forbiding NOT of tongues-(which the same Apostle also wrote by his own hand).
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#85
Where does it say it was impossible for Philip to lay his hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit? You accuse me of adding my interpretation, but yet you do that same thing.
I never said "it says it's impossible", I read and draw the logical conclusion, plus it explicitly states, "when Simon saw through the laying on of the APOSTLES HANDS THE HOLY GHOST was given".

I mean how much more clear do you need it to be in order to conclude Philip could not do so?

Far from adding anything, you know that. You added "when perfection returns", that is an addition to the words. Mine is a logical conclusion based on the events and statement in the text.

Have you attempted to read Acts 8? I am baffled you are trying to make the argument Philip could lay his hands on them.

My explaination does have support to it. Look at Acts 8:16, they were only baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, but Jesus told us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Philip did not do that. Why didn't he do that? I cannot know for sure, whether it was a lack of knowledge on Philip's part, or just a mistake which he ommitted, or something else.
Wow man, baptizing them in the name of Jesus is exactly what Christ said to do, "go ye and baptize in the name of the Father, SON, and holy Spirit"

Baptism in the name of means by the authority of. Philip did exactly what Christ commanded him to do. Are you seriously saying Philip did not understand what he was supposed to do, yet he was filled with the HS?

HOw is that possible? Instead of admitting your mistake here, you trying to put the blame on Philip?

If you cant admit this, you wont admit anything.

How can one be filled with the Holy Spirit, able to perform miracles, have the gift of knowledge in order to properly teach the gospel, and not understand what he was supposed to do?

I have heard some crazy things in my life, this takes the cake.

You have a perfect example that is a deathblow to you belief, and you are willing to say the inspired writer is recording one who did not know what to do, rather than looking to see if your wrong.
So what you're telling me is that no one has the Holy Spirit living in them anymore?
I never said anything like that. You seem to think if miracles are not present, neither can the Holy Spirit be.

You thinking is flawed to assume in order to have the Spirit, we must be able to perform miracles. This is a common misunderstanding due to false teachings of men.

When we are baptized into Christ upon believing the gospel, repenting of our sins, we receive the gift of the HS. This does not mean we can now go about like the Apostles raising the dead.



You claim your own interpretation for 1 Corinthians 13:10 is correct about it relating to ceasationism, but you have not proven your interpretation to be correct. You insert your own double standard saying I have to prove my view while you assume your view is the default and "correct" view.
I have given MUCH evidence to support my claim, just because your ignoring it does not make it go away.

I showed grammar: - "that" instead of "he" - you have ignored

I showed definition: "perfect" complete" always applied to man through scripture, and gave passages - You ignored.

I showed context: broke down the entire chapter - you have ignored.


So I have given sufficient arguments with supporting scripture and definitions, and rules of grammar, you have ignored them all, and continue saying I have not proven...what else should I do? Deal with the arguments and make some of your own.

Look at how your handling Acts 8 - Philip had lack of knowledge. No Bible support, no scriptures, nothing, just an absurd opinion.


I get it, you've made up your mind, and you choose to be set in your ways. I do not wish to join you in that line of thinking, and I'm not going to start plugging my ears and eyes to reality.
You mean continue plugging your ears? Because that has been what your doing this entire time.

Seriously though, what you present is giving me the message, "the Bible is just an ancient book. Just believe that stuff happened in the past, and that's it. It's largely not relevant today. Just believe, no action." Again, this may not be your message, but that's the way you're coming off with this ceasationism.
Well, your jumping to conclusions that I have not stated, dealing with things I have not said, and avoiding all the arguments and support I have given.

The Bible is relevant, the sad thing is you cant have faith without miracles, of at least you seem to come off that way with this entire conversation.




ok, it's "when the perfect comes" not "returns." I admit I made a slight error by not looking up the passage before posting about it.
It is not "slight" it changed the meaning of the passage. It also shows what you think the passage says, which could be a problem when defending what your defending.



That phrase doesn't mean it has not come once before. Do you deny that Jesus came to earth in the flesh?
Exactly my point, thank you. It does not say return, but "when comes" implying it has not come yet. We know Jesus has come already. So then the perfect (complete) is not referring to Him, but a thing, hence the word "that" to describe it.

The language is plain


Who said it's not "brought out publicly" or that it "only happens at church." Maybe it just get's bogged down and ignored becasue too many people, both non-Christians and professing Christians plug their ears and eyes to such things and deny them. But once again, you seem to be set in your ways, and you're just going to block out anything contrary.
You mean because I dont want to hear you stories about people who know someone who did this and that? If that is why then sure, set in my ways. My ways being support from the Bible. BCV(book chapter verse), you have not shown anything from this, but keep repeating stories I cannot confirm.

Again I Cor 13:10 - deal with the arguments of grammar, definition, and context.

Acts 8 - deal with Simon's statement he saw that through the Apostles hands the HS was given, hence why Philip did not do so.

Just saying Philip did not know, and Simon was wrong to, is not a valid argument. It is foolish assumption (plugging your ears and eyes) to even say such a thing.

And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.
Matthew 13:58

Nothing about "would not," that's just something you added.
"DID NOT DO" does not say "HE COULD NOT" as you said ONCE AGAIN changing the meaning.

DID NOT implies he did not, same as would not. IF your going to focus on exact wording, then please proof read.



Who did he heal in that passage, one with faith, or was he healing the ones accusing him of being from Satan?
Does not matter who was healed, who seen it? So go to a hospital full of sick kids that will believe anything you say, even if the doctors and nurses do not believe and heal them. If you can, or know someone who can, then why are you not doing it? What is the problem? Surely you would not keep such a gift to yourself, when you could do good to a child, and lead many to the faith, because your words would be confirmed by others seeing.



If you're going to strawman me with this Santa nonsense, then this conversation isn't going to go on much longer.
Do you knwo what a straw man is? The Santa was not an argument, it was giving an example of how easy a child will believe something, like if you went in and said, "do you believe I have the power to heal your cancer?" And then gave them that wonderful gift.

In fact dont even need to go to a hospital, start going town to town as Jesus and the Apostles and start healing in the streets and preach the word of God.

There is the example, why are not those who can do this, following that example?


That's not what the gifts of healing are about. Your ignorance is astounding, and your mindset seems to be willfully stuck in that mode.
Oh..please tell me then what they are about.

1. Are they to confirm the word?
2. Are they to show the power of God?
3. Are they to make others believe?

If yes to all three, then what is stopping you or those you know from going out into this sinful world, and glorifying God? Healing all manner of disease, raising the dead and all those signs that follow?

If we did have this power, would it not be a sin to keep it to ourselves, and among only those at our little churches, instead of going out and showing God's work?

Again, it is because they were not permanent, that is why if your sick you go the hospital, not a "pastor", when poisoned a hospital.

Paul was bit by a snake, he did not go to a hospital.

And what about the several cases of people that did not give their kid medical treatment, and the kid died because they thought God was going to heal them?

isn't that enough faith? Or maybe, because they were fooled by such false doctrines as you believe, they did not see the blessing of living in a country where they could have sought medical attention, because they were focused on the the temporary.

Had they believed the Bible, they would have thanked God for the medicine, the doctors, etc, and seen the providence of God at work, and their kids would probably be here.
That is the danger of false doctrine.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#86
Nothing lacking at all.
We are in full agreement that the scriptures lead us(you and me) into all righteousness.
But I was asking about the gifts of the Spirit, as they lead to the ministering of the saints(body of Christ).
what ministering?
for what?

if the scriptures lead us into salvation; training in righteousness; and all the things Paul mentioned, including the things he followed Paul in (no supernatural 'gifts' mentioned there either), why are they not sufficient for the body? we are the same body.

what do any of us need that wasn't covered in 1 Timothy?

1 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for".....every any of us needs.
it clearly says that.

Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

why is Peter clearly transitioning his readers away from the high intensity supernatural activity he was involved in at the foundation of the NT church, and pointing back to what had been revealed?

look at the tenses:

2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1
Born Again to a Living Hope
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, 7so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, 9obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you [his readers at the time, and us today], in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.


22Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24for

“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.”

And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

anything about supernatural stuff?
raising ppl from the dead or uttering unintelligible noises?
nothing about holy laughter; no private interpetations....

nothing.
but everything he said is about what was soon to be complete - the revelation about God contained in the scriptures breathed out by God.

all about everything need from salvation to good works.
all of everything about Jesus.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#87
And what sacred writings was Paul speaking about?
That would furnish Timothy unto every good work?
The same sacred writings that include I Cor. 12 - (written by Paul's hand);
and the forbiding NOT of tongues-(which the same Apostle also wrote by his own hand).
who stops anyone from presenting the Gospel in Spanish or Greek?
no one....that's the point.
take the Good News to the whole earth - known human languages.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#88
There's something else I don't understand. Why is it that people say that the canon of Scripture is complete when there are still books missing? Please note:

1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
There should be 1,2,& 3 Corinthians

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Paul confirms an earlier epistle to Ephesus.

Colossians 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
Here without a doubt Paul confirms his epistle to the Laodiceans.

If these books are still missing, how can we say the gifts have ceased because we have the full canon of Scripture?
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#89
There's something else I don't understand. Why is it that people say that the canon of Scripture is complete when there are still books missing? Please note:

1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
There should be 1,2,& 3 Corinthians

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Paul confirms an earlier epistle to Ephesus.

Colossians 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
Here without a doubt Paul confirms his epistle to the Laodiceans.

If these books are still missing, how can we say the gifts have ceased because we have the full canon of Scripture?
What make you think because there were other writings, means their missing from cannon? Do you not believe the HS had anything to do with the cannon?

The fact that they wrote other letters, does not indicate they are missing, but that they were not intended to be in the cannon, for reasons unknown. Yet what we do have is sufficient to guide us to heaven, and evidence from passages mentioned a million times above is sufficient to understand they were temporary until the completion, when the church was no longer in it's infancy.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#90
Zone - Black Rick - Red

what ministering?
for what?

if the scriptures lead us into salvation; training in righteousness; and all the things Paul mentioned, including the things he followed Paul in (no supernatural 'gifts' mentioned there either)What? Is I Cor.12 not part of the scripture?, why are they not sufficient for the body? we are the same body.

what do any of us need that wasn't covered in 1 Timothy? We need everything that was covered in I Tim. 3:16 - (Including the first letter to the Corinthians and the scriptures included therein - namely chapter 12.)

1 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for".....every any of us needs.
it clearly says that.

Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

why is Peter clearly transitioning his readers away from the high intensity supernatural activity he was involved in at the foundation of the NT church, and pointing back to what had been revealed?

look at the tenses:

2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. Yes, let every prophecy be subject to the prophets - I Cor. 14:32

2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Notice it is that same Holy Spirit? Why do you say Peter is steering them away from the Holy Spirit? If anything he is pointing them To it.

1 Peter 1
Born Again to a Living Hope
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, 7so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, 9obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you [his readers at the time, and us today], in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. Old Testament prophecy, which was for the announcing of the coming One-(Jesus Christ), not for edifying the body that now stands(after the incarnation).


22Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24for (Again, when do you say that First Cor.12 stopped being the word of God?) Or any of the other verses that affirm the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament?

“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.” (Including I Corinthians Chapter 12, and the multitude of other verses reaffirming the gifts of the Holy Spirit)

And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

anything about supernatural stuff? - Are you kidding!?! It's all about supernatural 'stuff'.
raising ppl from the dead or uttering unintelligible noises? (Yes)
nothing about holy laughter; no private interpetations.... Nice slip into the Word of something NEVER mentioned....WITH YOUR OWN PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.

nothing.
but everything he said is about what was soon to be complete - the revelation about God contained in the scriptures breathed out by God.

all about everything need from salvation to good works.
all of everything about Jesus. You keep building on something that you have said out of your own imagination. - Which I have shown as mistaken.
(You seem to be under the delusion that I Corinthians 12 and all the other verses that deal with the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not there- in the Holy Canon.)
I can only show you that they are.
Which I have.
 
W

weakness

Guest
#91
This is cessationism ONLY in this thread, BASED ON THIS VERSE AND OUTSIDE VERSES REFERENCE TO THIS VERSE, said in Love :)

take your Love talk somewhere else, LOL. No, seriously, and, sure, you know me, green, my heart, it is soulfully after He who saved me and shows of Himself often in my life, I believe :) But, yes, your opinion, pleasez, and, by all means, use Scripture to show your point. Here are the verses, what do these verses say to you regarding cessationism. Are they in support of it, or, not?

Charity=Love.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

A few questions (please, by ALL means, pose your own :) ) for you now, now that you've read the verses, questions posted in the 'speak from God' thread, but, again, this thread is more in caliber with its topic of spiritual gifts, which cessationists believe were DONE AWAY WITH after the long ago, apostolic (2nd century, 200 A.D.) age of apostle Paul, Peter, and, John.

1. What time is this passage in?

2. What is 'perfect to come?' Is it a 'what' even?

3. Why do YOU believe the way you do? Cessassionist or Continuationist.

No COMMENTARIES, just find Scripture, for now. The Lord leads, can't we just all GIT along, little peepies.


--------()-------
This is a polite request, I would like those that believe in spiritual gifts being done away with after the 2nd century to answer these verses without going to anyone's commentary.

Maybe, this is not fair, sorry, I pray that it's not my asking this, but His, I want to know what, ALL THESE YEARS, could be changed of your disbelief in God's ability to Holy Spirit work through you via spiritual gifts He gives you, pleaee, use this set of 1 Cor. 13 verses above listed and any other verses YOU find.

Like here is one supporting verse for my 'continuasionist' view of this passage:

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

God bless you, Christ peeps, be kin [/SIZE]
d, one to another, please, amen. :)
1. The time the passage is in... "for now" we see through a glass darkly. 2. when that which is perfect is come ?....When we no longer know in part...when we see face to face...when we know even as we are known...,,Even if ,and I believe it, we have a complete revelation of the truth before us , this does not mean that we understand the complete revelation of God, we still only know in part!
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#92
Zone - You still haven't shown why tongues ceased, of which the Apostle Paul said he spoke - "more than you all". - I Cor. 14:18
You separate the Holy Canon that Paul and Peter spoke about from the certain verses within it that you don't like.
Again.....I ask you, to show me were it is written that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?
 
M

megaman125

Guest
#93
I never said "it says it's impossible", I read and draw the logical conclusion, plus it explicitly states, "when Simon saw through the laying on of the APOSTLES HANDS THE HOLY GHOST was given".


That doesn't prove that ONLY apostles can impart the Holy Spirit. You yourself even provided instances where the apostles didn't.

Far from adding anything, you know that. You added "when perfection returns", that is an addition to the words. Mine is a logical conclusion based on the events and statement in the text.

Oh no, I used the word "returns" instead of "comes." I already admitted my mistake, but you won't get over it and let it go. And then people wonder why I've been considering leaving this forum.

Have you attempted to read Acts 8? I am baffled you are trying to make the argument Philip could lay his hands on them.
Wow man, baptizing them in the name of Jesus is exactly what Christ said to do, "go ye and baptize in the name of the Father, SON, and holy Spirit"


Have you attempted to read my posts? Philip baptized in the name of Jesus Christ only. He did not baptize in the name of the Father or the Holy Spirit.

How can one be filled with the Holy Spirit, able to perform miracles, have the gift of knowledge in order to properly teach the gospel, and not understand what he was supposed to do?

1. That's not what the gift of knowledge is. Your ignorance of the gifts is showing again, but since you're too set in your ways, you're not open to teaching.
2. That's like asking how Christians still sin. We still live in a fallen world. People still make mistakes.

You have a perfect example that is a deathblow to you belief, and you are willing to say the inspired writer is recording one who did not know what to do, rather than looking to see if your wrong.

What about you looking to see if you're wrong? Oh wait, you're too close minded and hard hearted to think that miracles still happen.

I never said anything like that. You seem to think if miracles are not present, neither can the Holy Spirit be.

You're the one that started this whole topic about imparting the Holy Spirit, when I was talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

You thinking is flawed to assume in order to have the Spirit, we must be able to perform miracles. This is a common misunderstanding due to false teachings of men.

You haven't proven that the gifts of the Holy Spirit being active is a false teaching.

When we are baptized into Christ upon believing the gospel, repenting of our sins, we receive the gift of the HS. This does not mean we can now go about like the Apostles raising the dead.

And what scripture is this based on? Show me one scripture that expressly states "after the original apostles die, there will be no more gifts of the Holy Spirit, no more miracles, no more healing."


Deal with the arguments and make some of your own.

I did. You brushed aside reality in favor of your hardened mindset. You're not open to this, I get it. You don't believe you can lay hands on the sick and they will be healed, and due to your unbelief, they won't. But that doesn't mean I'm going to follow that line of thought that you're trying to force on me by fighting tooth and nail.

Look at how your handling Acts 8 - Philip had lack of knowledge. No Bible support, no scriptures, nothing, just an absurd opinion.
Your opinion is that ONLY apostles can lay hands on people, and that ONLY the original apostles had the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That's just your absurd opinion.

Well, your jumping to conclusions that I have not stated, dealing with things I have not said, and avoiding all the arguments and support I have given.
But it's ok for you to brush aside and ignore everything I have given?

The Bible is relevant, the sad thing is you cant have faith without miracles, of at least you seem to come off that way with this entire conversation.
Another false assumption that shows you clearly haven't been reading my posts. I've already said repeatedly that faith is not based on miracles, and that miracles come after faith.

Exactly my point, thank you. It does not say return, but "when comes" implying it has not come yet. We know Jesus has come already. So then the perfect (complete) is not referring to Him, but a thing, hence the word "that" to describe it.

The language is plain
If it's so plain, then why do you have to add in your mounds of personal interpretation and opinion to reach the conclusion that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased?

I also asked you if Jesus came to earth in the flesh. You did not give me a direct answer to this.

And saying something comes doesn't mean it has never come before. I'll give an example. Tyler's mom came home from work. Does that mean Tyler's mom didn't come home from work the day before? Is it impossible to have a past event of the same thing happen?

You mean because I dont want to hear you stories about people who know someone who did this and that? If that is why then sure, set in my ways. My ways being support from the Bible. BCV(book chapter verse), you have not shown anything from this,
So now you're pretending I never brought up Mark 16:17-18, which mentions nothing about being restricted to only the original apostles.

Does not matter who was healed, who seen it? So go to a hospital full of sick kids that will believe anything you say, even if the doctors and nurses do not believe and heal them. If you can, or know someone who can, then why are you not doing it? What is the problem? Surely you would not keep such a gift to yourself, when you could do good to a child, and lead many to the faith, because your words would be confirmed by others seeing.
You act as if it's the responsibility and duty of one person to fix all the problems of the world. And why are you asking "who seen it" when that doesn't matter to your denialistic mindset?


Do you knwo what a straw man is? The Santa was not an argument, it was giving an example of how easy a child will believe something, like if you went in and said, "do you believe I have the power to heal your cancer?" And then gave them that wonderful gift.
That's not how healings are done, once again you show your ignorance to such things.


Oh..please tell me then what they are about.

1. Are they to confirm the word?
2. Are they to show the power of God?
3. Are they to make others believe?

If yes to all three, then what is stopping you or those you know from going out into this sinful world, and glorifying God? Healing all manner of disease, raising the dead and all those signs that follow?
You gave an insanely faulty example, and now you're trying to back away from it and change the issue?

Again, it is because they were not permanent, that is why if your sick you go the hospital, not a "pastor", when poisoned a hospital.

And what about the several cases of people that did not give their kid medical treatment, and the kid died because they thought God was going to heal them?
Hey look, your same faulty example. The gifts of healing is not a substitue for what man can already do. That's why I said you're ignorant about this stuff, especially considering you're now borrowing arguements that atheists use.


isn't that enough faith? Or maybe, because they were fooled by such false doctrines as you believe, they did not see the blessing of living in a country where they could have sought medical attention, because they were focused on the the temporary.

Had they believed the Bible, they would have thanked God for the medicine, the doctors, etc, and seen the providence of God at work, and their kids would probably be here.
That is the danger of false doctrine.
Good thing I don't proclaim that the gifts of healing is a substitue for a hospital, despite what you may think or assume about me.
 
M

megaman125

Guest
#94
Zone - You still haven't shown why tongues ceased, of which the Apostle Paul said he spoke - "more than you all". - I Cor. 14:18
You separate the Holy Canon that Paul and Peter spoke about from the certain verses within it that you don't like.
Again.....I ask you, to show me were it is written that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?
Oh, and this is another point, directed at feedm3. If the gifts of the Holy Spirit were only for the apostles, then why did many non-apostles speak in tongues?
 
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
59
0
#95
d, one to another, please, amen. :)

The colors-(black and red), are used for the purposes of debate.
So the reader can see the two opposing views.
Side by side.
Seeking the truth is not hateful.
Debating the Word is good because it leads to a more perfect understanding of the truth.
Don't you want to know what God said?
Or would you be satisfied with "hath God said"?
 
M

megaman125

Guest
#96
Oh, and feedm3, why is it you get to use reports of "faith healing" not working, but I'm not allowed to use reports of people being healed? Your double standards are astounding.
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#97
That doesn't prove that ONLY apostles can impart the Holy Spirit. You yourself even provided instances where the apostles didn't.
So your saying Acts 2 and 10 still happen, but did not happen in Acts 8?

That's because they are not the same thing.

There is no point in explaining, your obviously not open to anything I say.

When you do want to really have a look at Acts 2 and 10, and study what this was, let me know.

Oh no, I used the word "returns" instead of "comes." I already admitted my mistake, but you won't get over it and let it go. And then people wonder why I've been considering leaving this forum.
I am sorry, you did admit to it, I should not have commented anymore after that. That was UN-Christian of me.


Have you attempted to read my posts? Philip baptized in the name of Jesus Christ only. He did not baptize in the name of the Father or the Holy Spirit.
You said Philip only baptized in the name of Jesus, not the father and the HS. Probably because he was lacking in knowledge.


Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Why did not Paul baptize in the father and HS? He baptized them in the name of Jesus. This is because their is no differnece, as Paul says "there is ONE baptism.
In the name of Jesus, is also in the name of the Father, and HS.

"In the name of" simply means "by the authority of".

Now NOTICE:
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

So: Paul baptizes them, and then they were added to the body of Christ - acts 2:38, 47.

Then sense he was an Apostle, he layed his hands upon them, and ONLY then they received the HS.

Baptism in the name of Jesus, is baptism in the Father, Son, and HS. They are not all separate baptisms.

Paul tells us (Eph 4:4) their is ONE baptism, not multiple.

Philip needed Peter and John because they were Apostles, after he RIGHTLY baptized them in the name of Christ.

Paul did the same, yet did not need Peter and John, because he was an Apostle.



1. That's not what the gift of knowledge is. Your ignorance of the gifts is showing again, but since you're too set in your ways, you're not open to teaching.
2. That's like asking how Christians still sin. We still live in a fallen world. People still make mistakes.
Please explain to me what it is then.



What about you looking to see if you're wrong? Oh wait, you're too close minded and hard hearted to think that miracles still happen.
I am tired of instulting each other, we both feel we believe the truth, and we are both commanded to speak the truth in love. Hopefully we can move on from these statements were both making at each other, that makes our conversation unfruitful.


You haven't proven that the gifts of the Holy Spirit being active is a false teaching.




I believe the HS is active.


There is much the Bible says he does for the Christian, that have nothign to do with the miraculous.



And what scripture is this based on? Show me one scripture that expressly states "after the original apostles die, there will be no more gifts of the Holy Spirit, no more miracles, no more healing."
It is an implication based on the fact ONLY the Apostles could lay hands on people.

Not everything is explicit.

For example: there is not a passage that says Jesus did not leave his body on earth when he left.

We infer he did not, by the implications he returned to it.

I did. You brushed aside reality in favor of your hardened mindset. You're not open to this, I get it.
Insult, moving on.


You don't believe you can lay hands on the sick and they will be healed, and due to your unbelief, they won't. But that doesn't mean I'm going to follow that line of thought that you're trying to force on me by fighting tooth and nail.
So then you believe you can heal, do you as the Apostles did?



But it's ok for you to brush aside and ignore everything I have given?
I have answered everything you said. Look how long these posts are getting, I am answering everything you say.

If I happen to miss something it's not on purpose, just let me know what I skipped.




Another false assumption that shows you clearly haven't been reading my posts. I've already said repeatedly that faith is not based on miracles, and that miracles come after faith.
Okay.


If it's so plain, then why do you have to add in your mounds of personal interpretation and opinion to reach the conclusion that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased?
Ive showed you support and evidence, it's up to you to respond to it.



I also asked you if Jesus came to earth in the flesh. You did not give me a direct answer to this.
Sorry, must have missed it. Yes he came to earth in the flesh - Jn 1:14, the word became flesh...


And saying something comes doesn't mean it has never come before. I'll give an example. Tyler's mom came home from work. Does that mean Tyler's mom didn't come home from work the day before? Is it impossible to have a past event of the same thing happen?
I am glad your now willing to look at grammar rules, now can you deal with the grammar arguments?

1. Why is Jesus referred to as "that" in neuter form?

2. Can you show ONE example anywhere in scripture where this is used to describe him, to support your claim?


So now you're pretending I never brought up Mark 16:17-18, which mentions nothing about being restricted to only the original apostles.
I commented on that, go back and read it.



You act as if it's the responsibility and duty of one person to fix all the problems of the world. And why are you asking "who seen it" when that doesn't matter to your denialistic mindset?
Never asked you to fix all the problems of the world.

I said, even in your local area. You dont have to go out into all the world, start in your neighbor hood, or other churches you dont attend, as Jesus went to synagogues, and the streets, so did the Apostles. Some accused them of having the power of Satan, yet other's believed because of the signs. Would not we do the same?
That's not how healings are done, once again you show your ignorance to such things.
You just keep saying, "that's not what that means", and "that's not how they are done" yet you dont explain the meanings, or how things are done.

What good is just saying "thats not how their done" without showing exactly how they are done?


You gave an insanely faulty example, and now you're trying to back away from it and change the issue?
The issue as been the same. Acts 8 proves you wrong, sorry you dont believe explicit passages that say "though the laying on of the Apostles hands the HS was given",

Because it does not say "ONLY the Apostles..."?



Hey look, your same faulty example. The gifts of healing is not a substitue for what man can already do. That's why I said you're ignorant about this stuff,
another statement void of an explanation.


especially considering you're now borrowing arguments that atheists use.
Okay. If they ask the same thing fine with me. I didnt need to hear it from an atheist, their questions any logical thinking person would ask. Especially when we can read the Bible, and see the examples of healing, publicly, among non believers, making believers. It seems to me to be convenient for all who claim this to always have reasons they dont have to go out as the Apostles did.


Good thing I don't proclaim that the gifts of healing is a substitue for a hospital, despite what you may think or assume about me.
I didn't assume, thats why I asked.

I did not speak of healing yourself, I know healing was not used for the purpose of convenience, just as Paul left Trophimus sick, instead of healing him.

II Tim 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick

This shows they did not use it as a convenient way to escape sickness, Paul could have healed Him, yet that was not the purpose of the gift, they used it to confirm the word among the people.

Which I am asking if you are doing the same thing?

Not using it for convenience upon your self, and those you love, but going out to strangers, as the did the Apostles, and healing them to glorify God's name and confirm his word?

Simple question really.

[/SIZE]
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#98
Oh, and feedm3, why is it you get to use reports of "faith healing" not working, but I'm not allowed to use reports of people being healed? Your double standards are astounding.

Good point, forget I asked
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#99
Oh, and this is another point, directed at feedm3. If the gifts of the Holy Spirit were only for the apostles, then why did many non-apostles speak in tongues?
Because the Apostles layed their hands on them and gave them the ability to do so:

Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Except for when the Baptism of the HS occured in acts 2 and 10. If you would like to discuss that let me know. It is a little off subject, but I think important for this laying on of hands.

I wrote an article about this sometime ago, here it is: (it's not as long as it looks, it just alot of passages)




In order to properly understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we must first understand the difference between it and the laying on of the Apostles hands to impart the Holy Spirit.

THE LAYING ON OF HANDS:

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

Things to Note:
• Philip was NOT an apostle; only a deacon – see Acts 6:5
• Philip was able to perform miracles – Acts 8:6,7


Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Things to Note:
• The people; including Simon the Sorcerer believed Philip and was baptized.
• Upon this baptism there is no mention of the Holy Spirit,


Act 8:14 Now when THE APOSTLES which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then LAID THEY THEIR HANDS ON THEM, AND THEY RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on OF THE APOSTLES' HANDS THE HOLY GHOST WAS GIVEN, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Things to Note:
• vs 14 – Peter and John were both Apostles, sent for a purpose.
• Vs 15 – 16 – The people of Samara were already baptized but did not receive the Holy Spirit.
◦ They were only baptized in the name of Christ.
• Vs 17 – The Holy Spirit was given ONLY by the laying on of THE APOSTELS hands.
◦ Philip was able to perform miracles yet he could not lay his hands on the people to give the Holy Spirit, He needed the Apostles for that purpose.
• Vs 18 – Even Simon recognized this.

Questions based upon these passages:
[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT]Are there any Apostles alive today to pass on the Holy Spirit? Answer: No
[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT]What happen when the last Apostle died? - Answer: Miracles began to cease – I Cor 13.

THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had GIVEN COMMANDMENTS UNTO THE APOSTLES WHOM HE HAD CHOSEN:
Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Things to Note:
• The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was commanded to THE APOSTLES – Acts 1:2, 4.
• Jesus chose the Apostles himself.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Things to Note:
• “They” in text is still only referring to the Apostles – continued from Acts 1:2.
▪ Some may attempt to argue that it fell on the 120 disciples, but this is proven wrong simply by tracing back the pronoun “they”, it leads right to the Apostles.
• The Apostles received the Holy Spirit WITHOUT the laying on of hands.
◦ Because Jesus had personally chosen them and promised the baptism of the Spirit on them.
• This baptism of the Holy Spirit only occurs two times in the Bible.
◦ Here in Acts 2 on the Apostles (the Jews) and in Acts 10; Cornelius (the Gentiles).


Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Act 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Act 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Act 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

Things to Note:
• Cornelius was a devout man.
• His prayers came up as “a memorial” before God.
◦ The Greek word for “memorial” is [FONT=&quot]μνημόσυνον[/FONT]
▪ [FONT=&quot]This word means “a reminder”[/FONT]
▪ Cornelius' prayer reminded God that he would bring salvation to the Gentiles as well.
• See – Jn 10:16; 11:52, Gen 49:10.
• This does not mean Cornelius was saved at this point.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, WHICH HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Things to Note:
The Holy Spirit fell upon the gentiles just as it did the Apostles – WITHOUT THE LAYING ON OF HANDS
This astonished the Jews – 45.
It showed Peter and the rest of the Jews that God has chosen the Gentiles worthy of salvation.
It was not a decision made by the Apostles, but the pouring out of the Spirit showed it was from God Himself.
Yet Cornelius and the rest still had to obey like us all – Mrk 16:16.
They were COMMANDED to be baptized – Vs 48.

Act 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, AS ON US AT THE BEGINNING.
Act 11:16 Then REMEMBERED I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Things to Note:
• 14 – Peter was going to tell Cornelius how to be saved.
• 15 - “As on us at the beginning” shows the uniqueness of the Spirit falling upon them.
◦ It showed it was a decision made by God to save the Gentiles.
• 16 – The purpose was to show Peter and the Jews God deemed the Gentiles worthy of salvation.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith,

There is only one baptism today.
Is it the baptism of the Holy Sprit or baptism in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ​​?

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Only the Apostles could give the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Those teaching today that the Holy Spirit falls directly upon individuals are teaching error.
Just as Philip could not give the Spirit without the laying on of hands by the Apostles neither can we.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was a sign that God had chosen the Apostles, and later the Gentiles.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
W

weakness

Guest
d, one to another, please, amen. :)

The colors-(black and red), are used for the purposes of debate.
So the reader can see the two opposing views.
Side by side.
Seeking the truth is not hateful.
Debating the Word is good because it leads to a more perfect understanding of the truth.
Don't you want to know what God said?
Or would you be satisfied with "hath God said"?
Are you talking to me? black and red ??? sorry about green. Nothing wrong with seeking the truth!Nothing wrong with debate! God said ...hath god said ...TODAY if you hear his VOICE harden not your heart.