The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

[PS]

We know God saves so at least you have that right but why do you ignore James 1:21 that tells us to RECEIVE
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Why do you ignore the injunction to CHOOSE life?
Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live.”

Why do you ignore the fact we have CHOICES
Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Why do you ignore the Psalmist who CHOSE the way of truth.
Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I HAVE CHOSEN THE WAY OF TRUTH: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

Why do you ignore the fact it was the people who RECEIVED Jesus and BELIEVED in him who became the children of God?
Joh 1:12 But to all who did RECEIVE him, who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is just for starters.

 

[jimmydiggs]

We know God saves so at least you have that right but why do you ignore James 1:21 that tells us to RECEIVE

There is no ignoring involved. I will answer your objections to the the point that you demonstrate an unwillingness to reason and discuss, as many on this forum do when it comes to this subject.

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Why do you ignore the injunction to CHOOSE life?

I don't ignore it. We are commanded to choose, to make choices, and we do make choices every day. I have chosen to respond to your post, admittedly though with some reluctance.

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live.”

Why do you ignore the fact we have CHOICES
Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

You're pretty quick to judge on this whole, "Ya'll ignorin'" stuff.

Why do you ignore the Psalmist who CHOSE the way of truth.
Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I HAVE CHOSEN THE WAY OF TRUTH: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

No ignoring here either.

Why do you ignore the fact it was the people who RECEIVED Jesus and BELIEVED in him who became the children of God?
Joh 1:12 But to all who did RECEIVE him, who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is just for starters.

Good. Hopefully you're up for a discussion.


One of the things that is very destructive in churches today is that the doctrine of regeneration is no longer taught. That's the good part of it, neglect. Many churches just plain out deny the doctrine of regeneration.

Ezekiel 36

24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.[a] 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

Who is the "I will"? He is accomplishing regeneration in his people. God regenerates.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[a] them,”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Ezekiel 11:19
19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.


John 6

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

NO ONE, can choose Jesus if the Father hasn't already chosen them. John 6 is pretty clear about that.

Regeneration then, has to be an act of God. Man isn't even part of the equation.

Roman 8

6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The unregenerate cannot submit to God, so they cannot regenerate themselves at all.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

God is the one who gives men faith, not men themselves.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Faith isn't something we produce.



Hebrews 12

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

What does it mean for Jesus to be the founder and perfecter of our faith?

Titus 3:5-6

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Regeneration is through the Spirit... (not us)

James 1:19
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.


1 Peter 1:23-25
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[a]
And this is the word that was preached to you.

We are perishable. Not imperishable seed. Thus we cannot make ourselves be born again.


Here's the kicker for the argument you made about receiving...


John 1:12-13

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.



Please note, bold words and large text are used not to indicate yelling, but to draw attention to specific details (phrases, or sections).

Thank you for your time.


In summary:

We receive the Gospel call, we choose now this day the day of salvation, because God has not only enabled us to do so (because previously we were not able to), but has also caused us to do so.


2 Corinthians 4:6 (NASB95)
6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

 

[cfultz3]

Which is a huge threat to all dead religionists who insists that is their work that will get them saved. Not the work of Christ alone.

Tribe,

not towards you but that general statement.

Come and follow me...seems like a work to me
believe and be saved....seems like a work to me
love God, neighbors...seems like a work to me
carry your cross...seems like a work to me

In fact, every verb in the New Testament which is in the active by the believer seems to be a work. If we do not do the work of following, then we are not being led to the Promised Land. If we do not do the work of believing, then we remain a child of the wrath. If we do not do the work of love, then we remain in the darkness.....Work work, work, where do we draw the line from active faith to passive faith? From a willful faith to a robotic faith? From 'not my will but your will Father' to I cannot even decide to repent on my own freewill? Yet, we are told to choose this day.......

So, I guess placing one's confidence in Christ is even a work?

 

[mark54]

Tribe,

not towards you but that general statement.

Come and follow me...seems like a work to me
believe and be saved....seems like a work to me
love God, neighbors...seems like a work to me
carry your cross...seems like a work to me

In fact, every verb in the New Testament which is in the active by the believer seems to be a work. If we do not do the work of following, then we are not being led to the Promised Land. If we do not do the work of believing, then we remain a child of the wrath. If we do not do the work of love, then we remain in the darkness.....Work work, work, where do we draw the line from active faith to passive faith? From a willful faith to a robotic faith? From 'not my will but your will Father' to I cannot even decide to repent on my own freewill? Yet, we are told to choose this day.......

So I guess placing ones confidence in Christ is even a work?

Not if the relationship is built on love.

PS
Who's work would it be?

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH
Phil3:3

 

[cfultz3]

Not if the relationship is built on love.

If those deeds done in conjunction with the Spirit are to be eternally rewarded, then those deeds are works which are to receive payment. And we are told to give unto the Lord and He shall give back all the more. We give because we love the Lord. So, acts of love are deeds which shall/are rewarded.

 

[mark54]

If those deeds done in conjunction with the Spirit are to be eternally rewarded, then those deeds are works which are to receive payment. And we are told to give unto the Lord and He shall give back all the more. We give because we love the Lord. So, acts of love are deeds which shall/are rewarded.

The work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent
John6:29

I repeat, who's work

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
Eph2:8

How can you give all the glory to God, if you take some of the credit for your own works?

 

[Skinski7]

The work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent
John6:29

I repeat, who's work

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
Eph2:8

How can you give all the glory to God, if you take some of the credit for your own works?

Did Noah take credit for building the ark and thus infringe upon the glory of God?

By your logic he most certainly would have. Your statement about taking credit is pure fallacy. Without God we are but souls trapped in flesh stumbling around in a dark place, yet when a man yields to God the light of God is manifest through that man. The aspect of yielding does not impinge on the glory of God, in fact it glorifies God because through us having "choice" our love for God can be genuine.



Faith IS a work (1Th 1:3) for it is the working dynamic by which the grace of God is made effectual to the saving of the soul (Php 2:12-13). Hence we are saved by grace THROUGH faith (Eph 2:8) and not of ourselves, nor by the works of the law (Rom 3:28) but rather through abiding in Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23, Rom 8:2-4) who is the light that lights all men (Joh 1:9).

Forsake evil and yield to God, for that is the road to life.

 

[Skinski7]

...
Come and follow me...seems like a work to me
believe and be saved....seems like a work to me
love God, neighbors...seems like a work to me
carry your cross...seems like a work to me

In fact, every verb in the New Testament which is in the active by the believer seems to be a work. If we do not do the work of following, then we are not being led to the Promised Land. If we do not do the work of believing, then we remain a child of the wrath. If we do not do the work of love, then we remain in the darkness.....Work work, work, where do we draw the line from active faith to passive faith? From a willful faith to a robotic faith? From 'not my will but your will Father' to I cannot even decide to repent on my own freewill? Yet, we are told to choose this day.......

...

If those deeds done in conjunction with the Spirit are to be eternally rewarded, then those deeds are works which are to receive payment. And we are told to give unto the Lord and He shall give back all the more. We give because we love the Lord. So, acts of love are deeds which shall/are rewarded.

Sowing is a work too.

Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Adding to one's faith is work.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I am not sure what the "faith alone" people do with 2Pet 1:5-11. "Faith Alone" is not even anywhere in the Bible. Martin Luther was wrong.

It is essential to make a distinction between the "works of the flesh/works of the law" and the "works of faith." The works of faith are absolutely essential in regards to the outcome of one's salvation.

Here is an article I wrote on the issue.
http://thesinmuststop.blogspot.com/2012/01/brief-note-on-works.html

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no ignoring involved. I will answer your objections to the the point that you demonstrate an unwillingness to reason and discuss, as many on this forum do when it comes to this subject.



I don't ignore it. We are commanded to choose, to make choices, and we do make choices every day. I have chosen to respond to your post, admittedly though with some reluctance.

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live.”



You're pretty quick to judge on this whole, "Ya'll ignorin'" stuff.


No ignoring here either.





Good. Hopefully you're up for a discussion.


One of the things that is very destructive in churches today is that the doctrine of regeneration is no longer taught. That's the good part of it, neglect. Many churches just plain out deny the doctrine of regeneration.

I really hate doing this. do not want to think I am siding with PS here. He still has many questions to answer. And you know I am not against your gospel. But I do want to show a few points which I can not agree with.

What churches do not teach regeneration? I have been to many church of all faiths. and have never heard a rejection of regeneration taught. Even arminain churches teach regeneration. they just teach what was made alive can be made dead again, A fact which we both disagree with. Even PS says we can become dead again.

Ezekiel 36

24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.[a] 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

Who is the "I will"? He is accomplishing regeneration in his people. God regenerates.

The I is God. The who is Isreal. this speaks of the future restoration of Isreal. where God removes their blindness and they repent and come to him. Thus he gathers them from the nations from where they were taken in AD 70 and restors them to her land. Other OT prophesies speak God uses the time of Jacobs trouble to do this. which I will explain later.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[a] them,”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Ezekiel 11:19
19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Again, same as the previous prophesy, concerns the nation of Isreal. And God restoring them.

This is how it happens.

Jer 30: Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it. 8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.



The fierce anger of the Lord will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.


You see. Isreal knows these passages. When she sees the things God said would happen. she will remember these passages, and these prophesies. Her affliction will be great, and she will call out to God. and God will save her. Like God does with many of us (he did it with me in a very severe way) God uses times of great distress to get us to look at him. That is how he removes the blindness of Isreal. When he punishes the gentiles and puts an end to their age. He will not force them to believe him. they chose to do it on their own.

John 6

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

NO ONE, can choose Jesus if the Father hasn't already chosen them. John 6 is pretty clear about that.

It does not say unless the father chooses them, It says unless the father draws them, a HUGE difference. Jesus spent the whole time speaking to them about how they can come to him and be saved.

1. Believe in me
2. Believe in him that sent me
3. Whoever believes
4. Whoever eats and drinks etc etc.

He told them why they did not believe. Not because God did nto chose them. But because they did not come looking for the "words that give eternal life"(food which endures forever) they came looking for food. Since they were looking for things which will die. they could not see the things which would endure forever. Even Peter and the 11 did not know exactly what he was saying, but they still chose to trust him. Yet Judas never believed, he followed for selfish reasons.

Regeneration then, has to be an act of God. Man isn't even part of the equation.

Amen. Man can not regenerate himself. Yet those of us like me never claimed we could.

Roman 8

6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The unregenerate cannot submit to God, so they cannot regenerate themselves at all.

Amen. They can not do good. nor submit to any law. thats why the law can not save them. But it does not say they can not repent and chose to trust Christ. Since obeying God would never save anyone. there is no argument, the argument is can one chose to know and believe Christ and what he did. According to scripture. all men know this. But not all men will be saved, yet they will have NO EXCUSE. Your giving them an excuse. How can they be condemned for not believing in Christ when they were never allowed to understand and know Christ, thus given the ability to chose to receive or reject. They could not be condemned for unbelief, because they were never given the ability to do either.

if a company president writes a memo and it says everyone must do this (fill in the blanbk0 or they will lose their job.l then the president tells the clerk to only give the memo to people he choses. He can not legaly hold the poeple who never recieved the memo accountable. and fire them for not doing what was required of them, because he held that information from them. and legaly he would have been seen as committing an immoral act. Is God immoral?

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

God is the one who gives men faith, not men themselves.

He is telling them not to think above the faith they have already been given based on the amount they have grown in Christ. People grow in faith all the time.. God wishes all people would grow in great faith, but not everyone does. I pray your not saying it is Gods will for many to remain babes in Christ and not grow in their faith. This is a sad verse taken out of context my friend.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Faith isn't something we produce.

This is not saying we produce faith It says we were saved by trusting God. not by doing works of the flesh, or the law, or whatever work is considered work. It is saying salvation can not be earned by a list of rules and regulations and mans ability. Forgive me, But I have never seen this used as an argument for calvanism before. I pray it is yours and not a calvinist doctrine. this is sad if I must say so.

Hebrews 12

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

What does it mean for Jesus to be the founder and perfecter of our faith?

1. Jesus gave us the law. to prove to us we are sinners. and lead us as a schoolmaster to the truth
2. Jesus came to earth, Lived a life free of sin, Died a sinners death in my place. and took the punishment I deserve. Was risen 3 days later, Gods proof that he accepted Christ sacrifice. The accounts of this is given by word of mouth, and scripture for the whole world to see.
3. Jesus tells us he did this, so that whoever 1. believes the law. we are rightly condemned. And 2, Believes he came to remove that penalty from us, and 3, If we chose to trust him (faith) we will be saved eternally. he will give us eternal life.

Notice. everything above is the author of our faith. And the finisher is when God makes it real in our hearts. the moment we trust him, and we KNOW we have been born again into his family based on his redemptive act.

Titus 3:5-6

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Regeneration is through the Spirit... (not us)

Yep. it is not by any good deed we have done, Not by any religious ceremony we have done. Not be any act of works of any kind. Again, this is a sad argument. We were saved BY FAITH not works. Thus we were washed and regenerate by faith. Not works.

James 1:19
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

it does not say why he chose us. It just sais he chose us. Since we are saved by faith. and not works. And scripture is clear everyone from adam to the last man saved is saved by faith not works. Then it is quite evident, he chose us based on our faith. Not on our work. and not"just because"

1 Peter 1:23-25
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[a]
And this is the word that was preached to you.

We are perishable. Not imperishable seed. Thus we cannot make ourselves be born again.

The imperishable seed is Christ, it is the HS who is our seal. it is the gospel. This is not saying we can not trust this seed. This is saying our salvation will never fade away. Again, another miquote of what the passage means.

Here's the kicker for the argument you made about receiving...


John 1:12-13

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.



Please note, bold words and large text are used not to indicate yelling, but to draw attention to specific details (phrases, or sections).

Thank you for your time.

Again. miquote out of context.

John 1:12-13

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

To all who did what? recieved Christ, by their own action of faith. Not by being born into a family, Not by the decision of some human (say a pastor, a president, a church leader etc) and not because your husband desires you to be saved. No one can make us chose God. and no one can make us right with God. we can only do this ourself.

In summary:

We receive the Gospel call, we choose now this day the day of salvation, because God has not only enabled us to do so (because previously we were not able to), but has also caused us to do so.


2 Corinthians 4:6 (NASB95)
6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

and thus we see the only difference between you and I, Which is not a major flaw, or a point of contention which I think you are not my brother in Christ/ for you are.

We chose because God has enabled us to yes, By doing what needed to be done for us to be saved. Because God caused us to be saved, because we CHOSE to trust him, and not

1. Come to him in mere belief, where we believe, but we do not trust him, we still want to live in our sin, so we try to take the easy way out, just in case this jesus things is true
2. We believe in Christ. But we do not believe his work was enough, we have to add our works to his to "perfect our salvation"
3. We reject him outright, we believe in him and know we are judged (as romans 1 says) but we love sin (darkness) more than light. so we make our own Gods, whatever they may be, which will listen to us,

the biggest argument against calvanism. which will always prevent me from excepting his fatalistic view is seen here.

If the human race was so depraved they could never do good, Never see God. Never see Christ and his exponential death, and never understand it. there would be no number 1 or number 2 above, there would not be any catholics, any arminians, or any other religion which believes in condemnation, and the sacrificaial death of Christ. there would be calvanists, and number three. There could not be anyone else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Tribe,

not towards you but that general statement.

Come and follow me...seems like a work to me
believe and be saved....seems like a work to me
love God, neighbors...seems like a work to me
carry your cross...seems like a work to me

In fact, every verb in the New Testament which is in the active by the believer seems to be a work. If we do not do the work of following, then we are not being led to the Promised Land. If we do not do the work of believing, then we remain a child of the wrath. If we do not do the work of love, then we remain in the darkness.....Work work, work, where do we draw the line from active faith to passive faith? From a willful faith to a robotic faith? From 'not my will but your will Father' to I cannot even decide to repent on my own freewill? Yet, we are told to choose this day.......

So, I guess placing one's confidence in Christ is even a work?

According to them, yes it is a work. That is where our disagreement is. and why they fight that faith precedes regeneration, because they do not even want to appear to be taking credit for their salvation that can, and should be scary thing.

Of all the things who posted. Only number 2 has any bearing on anyones salvation.

we can not follow him until we are saved, nor can we know what he wants us to do
We can not love as God loved unless we are filled with the love of God. thus only a person who is saved has the capability to do this
carrying our cross. again, if we are not saved, we do not have the capacity to do this

the three things I just mentioned are works. Works of men. And thus we are not saved by doing them, we do them because we are saved.

number 2 is the work of God. It is not our work. If God did not do all the work requirted for us to trust in, we could not have any faith. for their would be nothing to trust in. Thus God gets the credit and the glory for our faith, because it is ALL his work which we trusted.

 

[zone]

Even arminain churches teach regeneration. they just teach what was made alive can be made dead again

imma jump in and say that anyone who teaches that has not experienced regeneration.
if you've been born from above, you know it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If those deeds done in conjunction with the Spirit are to be eternally rewarded, then those deeds are works which are to receive payment. And we are told to give unto the Lord and He shall give back all the more. We give because we love the Lord. So, acts of love are deeds which shall/are rewarded.

'
'
yes. that is why we recieve and do them because we are saved, and not saved by doing them.. the reward is never salvation as many want to say it. salvation is always a gift. Never a reward.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent
John6:29

I repeat, who's work

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
Eph2:8

How can you give all the glory to God, if you take some of the credit for your own works?

Amen you can;t. that is why we are washed not by good deeds we have done, but by the spirit of Our God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

imma jump in and say that anyone who teaches that has not experienced regeneration.
if you've been born from above, you know it.

Thanks for jumping in sis. And I would agree with everything you said.

Anyone who has experienced regeneration would not fear they could ever lose salvation, or God would ever leave them.. They may believe in it, but they have never experienced it.

 

[cfultz3]

Black = Mark
Purple = Me

The work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent John6:29

-- Indeed, work not for the meat which perishes, but work for the meat which remains into everlasting life....What (work) shall we do so that we could work the works of God....this is God's work: believe in the One He sent....

So then, faith is not passive, but active, seeing that we are to do the work of God and that is to believe, and that believe it self is a work, seeing that 'believe' is not only in the aorist active subjunctive (implying a past action which should have been undertakened by the performer of the act (the person)), but it is also, by its very definiton, what we are to do in order to do God's work.

If I say, "I kicked the ball", who then performed that deed? I did. So, if it is said,'You are to believe in the One He sent," then I performed that deed of having believed. And my faith is true and not cohersed.

I repeat, who's work

-- as pertaining to having believed or salvation through faith? I take no credit for salvation, seeing that salvation by faith was the gracious act of God done through Christ. Without that faith, I have no salvation. But I do say that it was just told to us that placing our faith in Christ is to have been done in order to do the work of God. So, I will perform that which is told to me to do in order to do God's will: I will place my faith in Christ.

Therefore, faith is a deed performed by an individual. Do I take credit for having saved myself? No, seeing that that deliverance from condemnation is done by God. So, what of my choice and of the answer to that question of 'whose work'? God saves me according to the decision I have made to believe in Christ. If I had chosen to have stayed a sinner, would I be saved? No!

So then, believing must be concluded as a work of faith and not of the Law. Now do we understand that faith without works is dead. If I did not perform the deed of believing, then there would have not been any faith to have saved me. If I did not do faith's work of loving, then I remain in the darkness. If I do not do faith's work of following God, then I am lost in the wilderness. Indeed, faith without works is dead.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God Eph2:8

-- Indeed, by the gracious act of God, I am not save by the righteousness of the Law, but the righteousness of faith. And thus, the righteousness of the Law did not do it for me, but God, through His mercy, so that I could be saved not according to my righteous deeds of the Law, but by His grace.

How can you give all the glory to God, if you take some of the credit for your own works?

-- Works of faith is not one's righteousness (that which gives one salvation), belieiving in Christ is one's righteousness. I am not justified (pronounced not guilty of lawlessness and thus, worthy of the adverse sentencing of the Law) by those works of fatih, I am justified by faith.

Was Abraham's faith in God, when he trusted in God to provide a sacrifice for Himself, a work? No! So, how then can it be said that when we trust God, it is a work and we are taking credit for our salvation? Works of faith are not works of the Law to obtain salvation. Works of faith includes us actively placing our confidence in God. If it were not a work then, then it is not a work now.

 

[cfultz3]

'
'
yes. that is why we recieve and do them because we are saved, and not saved by doing them.. the reward is never salvation as many want to say it. salvation is always a gift. Never a reward.

Truly you have read many of my posts!!!! Yet, have you heard me ever say that we are saved by works (of the Law)?

 

[rauleetoe]

The grace of God.

Not true sir..be honest and please do not disingenuous any longer.
A leopard is known by his spots..
The Calvinist points to his or her election(alleged election) as to his/her salvation..This 'grace' is merely a preferential treatment according to reformed theology that the high calvinist is most likely not going to address. As far as your rant about choosing life..be honest, if you are not given the grace to choose, as all Honest calvinsts will admit to that some according to reform theology are unable to 'choose life'..How on earth can you say that this is a command by God given to us all? Either you are being dishonest(my guess and with good reason) or you are not as educated as you say that you are regarding reform theology(since i will give you enough credit that you are smart,most calvinists are) then i am going to say you are only speaking half truths. Be honest though..say that some will not be able to choose, according to your view of the Bible and what it says..then its not a command to all, because why would God command somebody to choose that which that person was never given the ability to do so, yet punish him? It sounds borderline insane and cruel and unloving at best if God were to do this..

 

[tribesman]

Tribe,

not towards you but that general statement.

Come and follow me...seems like a work to me
believe and be saved....seems like a work to me
love God, neighbors...seems like a work to me
carry your cross...seems like a work to me

In fact, every verb in the New Testament which is in the active by the believer seems to be a work. If we do not do the work of following, then we are not being led to the Promised Land. If we do not do the work of believing, then we remain a child of the wrath. If we do not do the work of love, then we remain in the darkness.....Work work, work, where do we draw the line from active faith to passive faith? From a willful faith to a robotic faith? From 'not my will but your will Father' to I cannot even decide to repent on my own freewill? Yet, we are told to choose this day.......

So, I guess placing one's confidence in Christ is even a work?

You say it "seems" to be a work. If you think these things are the work of man then I will question if you have experienced the things of which you speak. If you think you have to do any work in order to be saved then you are grossly deceived. These things mentioned above are but the work of God. They are the fruit of regeneration. They are not the work of man. Fruit of regeneration - not works of merit. Your problem is that you do not differ much enough between the regenerate and the unregenerate and their respective characteristics. The reason for that must be that you do not yet understand the gospel nor the nature of man and the absolute perfect holiness of God almighty.

 

[rauleetoe]

Truly you have read many of my posts!!!! Yet, have you heard me ever say that we are saved by works (of the Law)?

You waste your time with EG, he is dilusional and has a bad habit of adding to that others say..he speaks in half truths regarding anybody who opposes OSAS..i suggest you do what i did..put him on ignore..he is a lost cause definitely..and you will only find yourself tempted to lash out in responses to him..which is borderline carnal..so, merely avoid him..sadly he will not hear you out, and call you a legalist..or worst..say you are condemned and cry foul when you expose his problems with his theology..just walk away while there is a chance..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Black = Mark
Purple = Me

The work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent John6:29

-- Indeed, work not for the meat which perishes, but work for the meat which remains into everlasting life....What (work) shall we do so that we could work the works of God....this is God's work: believe in the One He sent....

So then, faith is not passive, but active, seeing that we are to do the work of God and that is to believe, and that believe it self is a work, seeing that 'believe' is not only in the aorist active subjunctive (implying a past action which should have been undertakened by the performer of the act (the person)), but it is also, by its very definiton, what we are to do in order to do God's work.

If I say, "I kicked the ball", who then performed that deed? I did. So, if it is said,'You are to believe in the One He sent," then I performed that deed of having believed. And my faith is true and not cohersed.

I repeat, who's work

-- as pertaining to having believed or salvation through faith? I take no credit for salvation, seeing that salvation by faith was the gracious act of God done through Christ. Without that faith, I have no salvation. But I do say that it was just told to us that placing our faith in Christ is to have been done in order to do the work of God. So, I will perform that which is told to me to do in order to do God's will: I will place my faith in Christ.

Therefore, faith is a deed performed by an individual. Do I take credit for having saved myself? No, seeing that that deliverance from condemnation is done by God. So, what of my choice and of the answer to that question of 'whose work'? God saves me according to the decision I have made to believe in Christ. If I had chosen to have stayed a sinner, would I be saved? No!

So then, believing must be concluded as a work of faith and not of the Law. Now do we understand that faith without works is dead. If I did not perform the deed of believing, then there would have not been any faith to have saved me. If I did not do faith's work of loving, then I remain in the darkness. If I do not do faith's work of following God, then I am lost in the wilderness. Indeed, faith without works is dead.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God Eph2:8

-- Indeed, by the gracious act of God, I am not save by the righteousness of the Law, but the righteousness of faith. And thus, the righteousness of the Law did not do it for me, but God, through His mercy, so that I could be saved not according to my righteous deeds of the Law, but by His grace.

How can you give all the glory to God, if you take some of the credit for your own works?

-- Works of faith is not one's righteousness (that which gives one salvation), belieiving in Christ is one's righteousness. I am not justified (pronounced not guilty of lawlessness and thus, worthy of the adverse sentencing of the Law) by those works of fatih, I am justified by faith.

Was Abraham's faith in God, when he trusted in God to provide a sacrifice for Himself, a work? No! So, how then can it be said that when we trust God, it is a work and we are taking credit for our salvation? Works of faith are not works of the Law to obtain salvation. Works of faith includes us actively placing our confidence in God. If it were not a work then, then it is not a work now.

the problem thus becomes when we use these "works of faith" as a means to keep being saved, so we will not use it. In this context. We can take credit for these works, because we are doing them not to lose salvation, but to keep it.

as paul said, are we fools, who have been born of the spirit and then try to perfect our salvation by works..

if we believe we can lose salvation. we are not working works of faith. we are working works of redemption. so we will not lose what we must earn.. see the difference here??