The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

zone · Jan 16, 2013

okay.
let's turn a page in the story. this is really dumb, but i'll go with it

this is not about T.U.L.I.P. okay?

its just about the gift of pistis.

ONCE UPON A TIME:

your current under boss is a dictator (satan). he has you scrubbing latrines with no pay.
you get no time off.
but it's all you've ever known, and you actually like it in a twisted way.
you and your latrine buddies live in that stuff, and have a latrine crime syndicate going.

[everybody?] gets the same message from ANOTHER Boss, the CEO, whom they didn't know about. they had an idea there was someone else in charge, but doubted He was good, since He was allowing this underboss to work them to death and stuff.

that Boss, the CEO IS the King of the World....and He is a BENEVOLENT "dictator" < He is a KING with no one above Him.

ppl will obey Him one way or the other. like it or lump it.

that CEO is both kind and wrathful. He calls all the shots. call Him a dictator if you want to: everyone's fate rest on His decisions.

He has compassion on the latrine workers, though He is not obligated to, since they actually enjoy what they are doing, and are persecuting each other and tossing each other down the holes.

He has already decided the underboss (satan) is going to be fired....literally (there were insubordination issues between the CEO and the underboss we don't know a lot about - for some reason the underboss has been allowed to develop his network anyway).

The CEO sends out a message to the workers.

the message from the CEO goes into the workers' inboxes (it's been in their inboxes before they were even placed on the job...they either never looked; didn't have time; were tricked into not looking; or someone forged a different message, etc)

SOME have been to their inbox and found the message...along with the notarized message is another thing - a pair of They Live glasses which the worker reaches up and discovers he is wearing - the worker is wearing the They Live glasses and reads the message and understands it he believes it because the CEO made sure he would...and in that moment he is able to SEE that his latrine job is actually inside a cardboard box or is a movie stage (a la The Truman Show) and is not the only option....some actually do get, yet others do not...this is a paradox, and Jesus spoke in parables about that....neither of us denies this.

the worker who received the message AND the glasses has PROOF....real proof that the CEO can be trusted. he KNOWS because of the glasses he didn't have before that there is another way. he could not have known it without the glasses.

the CEO provided the million dollar deposit and the promise of the estate in the Bahamas though the worker was a filthy criminal and didn't deserve it (Grace)

the glasses are pistis, given by the CEO (faith)

Rowdy Roddy Piper
(yes....we actually wore jeans like that

)

THE END

before you write the sequel and say the worker had to agree to put on the glasses....ok

even if he had to agree to put on the glasses, SOMETHING outside of himself had to persuade him to put on the glasses. so we can do a hall of mirrors thing until we end up with God peering through the corridors of time....

or we can just accept what it says here, without taking it apart:

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

zone · Jan 16, 2013

Plato's Cave is a little more elegant than my story...but anyhoo....

PS · Jan 16, 2013

Paul in Ephesians 2 is writing to believers. Had they not believed they would not be saved.

zone · Jan 16, 2013

PS said:

that's true.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

is their belief their own doing?

what does it say?

is ANY of it their own doing?

does God plan to have ALL the Glory?

it's really either yes or no.

PS · Jan 16, 2013

zone said:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

We are saved by the grace of God, it is not of our doing and neither is it the result of works lest we should boast, it is by faith that we are saved. The same as Abraham and the patriarchs were saved by faith.

Faith is the conduit through which all blessings flow, faith will move mountains, but as Jesus said it was the woman's faith that saved her and so it is with us.

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 7:9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel."

zone · Jan 16, 2013

PS said:

well take the best seat, rabbi, for you indeed have much to boast about

i'll sit here at your feet and you tell me how you summoned up pistis....

i'm just a foolish and debase thing that the Lord might have mercy on.

look how readily the proud will cut & paste this:

God:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

PS:
We are saved by the grace of God, it is not of our doing and neither is it the result of works lest we should boast, it is by faith that we are saved. The same as Abraham and the patriarchs were saved by faith.

PS - what was Abram doing before God appeared to him?

zone · Jan 16, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

corridor of time?
God had to learn something?
God's Plan rests on what man himself determined before the foundation of the world?

please tell me how this differs from double predestination?
does it?

cfultz3 · Jan 16, 2013

EG= blue
Me = purple

l0l. I am just trying to show you that faith in Christ is not a work in the sense of we are earning something.

Agreed. I, and it seems you also, am saying that we choose that faith and by which, God Himself will led us home.

Yes, God leads us

----------

That is the very argument which I believe caused Calvin to decry faith by free will as a means to salvation. Faith is not our work, it is Gods work,

-- but if God gave us faith, then is that faith really our faith or God's faith? Do we not willfully trust Him and by which faith, He shows us that the confidence we have placed in Him is not a lost cause?

As I said. what faith could we have if God did not do anything? Who is the author and finisher of our faith? Us or God? did we work to earn that faith? or did God do all the work?

God did everything for one to obtain salvation, all we do is to accept that plan, this you and I agree on. The question which remains is, 'is placing our faith in Christ a work to earn salvation?" To this I say, without us having actively placed that faith in Christ, then we do not receive that salvation. Does that faith save me? Yes. But does that act save me? No. But without having done that act, I would have no faith. So, it must be that the continuous act of placing my faith in Him keeps me in Him and thus, saved.

Now, we are left with the following:

God saved me because I chose to believe
vs.
I believed and God saved me because I chose to believe

With that in mind, does it really matter which order I place the sequence? The only thing which should matter is that I am saved through faith. And as you have pointed out, and I agree, is that it is God who saves and not I. So, if I am the subject, then I have saved myself by using the salvational instruments set before me. But, however, if God is the subject, then it is He who has set up everything so that I by faith, could obtain salvation. To this, EG, I say thank you for the correction of looking prospectively down and not up.
-----------

because he did everything that we needed in order to even be able to trust him.

Agreed, He set the plan in motion on how to obtain salvation through Christ: to believe. So that we no longer trust the Law for our righteousness (that which obtains our salvation = works of the Law)

to put it even more precise, we do not trust self in any way by any law by any deed to save us. our complete faith is in Christ and him alone.

-----------

Without his work. we would have nothing to trust in, and we would not be having this discussion.. lol

-- Without His work (faith), we would still have the Law which would still send us to Hades But thank God that we no longer have the Law for our righteousness and still face Hades until Jesus would die to our justification. That would only kill Him the second time.

to bad everyone does not think this, they want to crucify Christ again by saying we can lose salvation

What is worse is the one who knew all which God offers a son, having been enlightened, having taste of the Heavenly gift (salvation), and made partakers of the Holy Spirit (our sealing of sonhood), and have tasted of the Good Word of God (Jesus supping with one) and the powers of the world to come (the gifts of the Holy Spirit), to only then fall away (wonder off). It would be impossible to restore him to repentance, seeing that he knew what God had to offer, but chose a different god, and thus even the process of crucifying the Lord for his rebellion of walking away, would have no effect in changing his mind, seeing that he knew already those things of God but willfully rejected them.

And yes, EG, Christ did not loose him, he lost himself by rejecting God for another god of choice.
-------------

which is why I always say, Calvinists are my brothers and sisters in Christ. they just believe we come to the point of repentance and faith differently. They teach the SAME repentance and faith as we do though

-- I was just thinking that today myself, about coming to salvation at different points (freewill and ?)

repentance and faith saves. we both believe this, this should be all that matters right? We might not like how they come to this repentance, or how God rejects people, but is this so serious that we would condemn them? this is what happens when we fight doctrines of men, and not following the truth of God. we hate this. so everything they say must be wrong, I better not agree with anything or I might become like them, so we hate and condemn them. we see that in here, it is very noticeable.

Yes, repentance and faith saves and should be all which matters. If the repentance is from a true heart and is dealt with properly by a leading of the Spirit and faith in Christ is the only means to obtain salvation, then we as brothers should not condemn another brother to death because one sees the necessity of agreeing with God that repentance is needed for faith to be real, as opposed to one seeing God as the gifter of everything, even the desire to say, 'Yes', to His conviction (summarized from previous talks from others). But, we all understand that it is the extremities which some goes to in order to nullify the other which is the problem. If Scripture speaks of God and freewill in the process of salvation, then it is necessary that we find the harmony in the middle. Neither side should be nullified in expectation of having won the disagreement of the moment.

The simple truth is, and as you said, 'this is what happens when we fight (for) the doctrine of men, and not follow[ing] the truth of God.'' And this is the very reason why I do not go about to learn of the isms of Christianity. Well spokened or written words sometimes have more impact on a soul then the very words softly bellowed from the Spirit. Many divisions are caused by the insertion of thoughts and the unwillingness to go and search Scripture for one's self. And as we continue to embellish upon what we have read in Scripture by those well spokened arguments of men, the Truth we have learned becomes more and more distorted and eventually, we often forget to love in our defense of what we have accepted to be truth. But what Truth is it when I condemn another to death, when all and all, I remembered having read somewheres in Scripture that God had mercy on me for the same thing which I now condemn another of. Yet, it was that same fine argument of a man which said that if what is said by him is not believed, then the one who speaks against it is certainly of the devil and his soul will pay, which made me condemn another in the first place.

There is therefore no condemnation in Christ. Let us all lay aside the isms and pick up the Word. Shall we not see one another for eternity when our repentance is true and our faith is only in Christ? Come now, let us harmonize the Truth with the Truth and the isms shall disappear along with our godly judgments of death.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 16, 2013

zone said:

lol.. Like I always say, I try to stay away from things which are made up of men (Say like TULIP) and just try to find truth. Instrad of trying to prove a doctrine right or wrong, lets just try to seek what truth says, then see if the doctrine lines up with it??

ONCE UPON A TIME:

Click to expand...

there is still a problem with this what did you call it? Parable?

1. The note was given to all the workers. as was the glasses.
2. You state all the workers did not look in their inbox. why was this? was they tricked by the boss (satan) into not looking? Was the true boss (the king) hiding something from them. and got them not to look in the box. Or did the workers just not know they had an inbox (in which case, why did both bosses hide this fact from them? They do not seem like very moral bosses by doing this. In fact quite the opposite. By their own deception and arrogant pride. they made sure many did not want to look at the box, or hid the box so that the thing which could set them free from them. so they they would not find it.
3. Either way, the "king" as you call it was not a very loving king, or he would have made sure everyone knew about the box so they could chose to look at it or not. worse yet. he did not tell them that something was in it which could make their lives so much better.
4. You stated the glasses represent faith? This is not true. The glasses was just the interpretor of the words written their in. The worker would still have to chose to have faith in what was said, or not. Not to mention. the glasses was given to everyone. so would nt everyone be able to understand if they just CHOSE to look?
5. How trustworthy was the king? He chose to let me know the box was there. But did not chose to send my sibling, who I happen to love very much, Keeping him from truth. Do you think I am going to trust a king who would do such an immoral thing such as keeping the one I love from truth.

also. Now that I know it is there. would I not be obliged to tell others this box is there? and that they should look in it also. I would not even have to tell them what is in it. The glasses are already their for them to interpret the note. All i would have to do is help direct them to it.

finally. You said I loved working in the filth. Well you see, your right. I love it. I do not even give credit to the boss. He just thinks he has control. I chose to work for him, and am doing what I willed to do in the first place.

or

Click to expand...

yep. lets look at it.

1. we were dead.
2. While we were dead, We were made alive (this is common sense, if one is made alive, it must be done while we are dead0
3. How did this occure. was it byu my power or by Gods power? well Paul answers this question.
4. we were saved (made alive) by Grace, and raised up with Christ. show that in the comming ages, he might show all creation the riches of his love.
5. we were saved (made alive) by faith. and not by works. lest we take credit for ourselves. For we are his workman ship created in christ for good works (our salvation produces works. not the other way around.

we can also go to chapter one to see this preached over and over again.

1. He chose us, He predestined us and he adopted us.
2. we have redemption in him, who showed us the mystery of his will. and the glory of his great plan. We who FIRST CHOSE TO BELIEVE IN HIM.
3. How? We first heard the word of truth (as did many many other people who walked swith Christ, and who have heard the gospel of Christ) but we did not just hear it. we actually placed our faith in it. Having done this, we were sealed with the HS of promise.
4. Now that we are saved. Paul prays that we grow in the knowledge and wisdom of what we have recieved, so we can understand that hope we have been given to its fulness.
5 He prays that we understand the greatness of his power, toward us who (BELIEVE< NOT WHO ARE CHOSEN)
6. he made us alive in him (he rose us from death to life)
7. he did this all through grace, as none of us deserve it. How did he do it? By our faiht in him, not because we worked to earn it. because we could not. But as Paul said in chapter 1. we heard the word like everyone else. But we chose to accept his word and not reject it.

any questions?

homwardbound · Jan 16, 2013

SarahM777 said:

I love the Forgiven poster and have that along with Thomas's boo he wrote about waht he painted and why it is vey enlighting

eternally-gratefull · Jan 16, 2013

zone said:

the "not of your own doing" does not refer back to faith, it refers to the works.

Your twisting the meaning of the passage sis. sorry, but I do not see it any other way.

I did not save myself by having faith in him, He saved me, because I stopped working to be my own God and my own judge, and stood still and recieved his gift.

PS · Jan 16, 2013

zone said:

I know we are saved by the grace of God but without faith we are nothing

Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

Abraham believed God.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 16, 2013

zone said:

again this is a twist. Does God know all things or not? why would God have to learn something he already knew? think about what your saying sis.

Nope. gods plan was to save all people who heard the word of truth, and trusted in his word. It is what the bible says, and was his plan all along.

how could it? it is not on God. God did not condemn us, we condemned ourselves because although we knew him as God, we know our righteous judgment, and he showed us our need for him to save us, we hardened our hearts and made our own Gods, our own way to him, and rejected his provision.

God gets the glory. He died for us when we were doing this very thing, and them also.. The fact we disregarded the lie of self. and chose to trust him (and even had the opportunity) is all of him, because if he did not do what he did. we could have no faith.

homwardbound · Jan 16, 2013

SarahM777 said:

tell me was John the baptist born a sinner or was the Holy spirit with him from conception on and this was before the new covenant came into play, being the forrunner for Christ Jesus. God called many righteous before the cross and it has always been through their belief in God and Christ forgave while on earth before the cross. God can dowahtever God decides period there is no formula. I think it was John that told the religous leaders of that day that God could turn these stones into Israelites, first chosen if God so chooses
Homwardbound

zone · Jan 16, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

how disappointing. this is heartbreaking.
can you show this to me EG?
carefully without conjecture?

because if what you say is so, everyone who has faith has performed a greater work on their own, contributed more to their own salvation...everything in fact.

their FAITH saved them.

literally.

faith in what? where did that faith come from?

zone · Jan 16, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

what gift?
what made you stand still?
how did a man who was a criminal rebel dead in trespasses and sins suddenly decide to stand still and summon up faith?

never mind the whole of the LAW.

THAT performance by self would be the greatest work of all.

cfultz3 · Jan 16, 2013

I heard that before Christ, some had faith and by that faith, they were delivered from Hades. Salvation is indeed by faith, but that faith comes by hearing and that hearing by the Word of God and by such we believe unto salvation.

tribesman · Jan 16, 2013

zone said:

Exactly...who made the blind to see, the deaf to hear, the dead to be quickened?

How did the guilty become convinced of their sin and found no other refuge than the Lord Himself? Who did this work? Man???

zone · Jan 16, 2013

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

zone · Jan 16, 2013

tribesman said:

Matthew 11
And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see:
The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.

John 5:36
"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me.

The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

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