Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution

[Skinski7]

Jesus continually spoke of being a doer of the word.

What do we have to do? We have to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him.

What does that mean? It means we have to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive with meekness the implanted word.

In other words we have to STOP SINNING and by sinning I mean WILLFUL KNOWN TRANSGRESSION.

When Paul taught "repentance PROVEN by deeds" the deeds he was referring to was a changed life. A life where one was no longer walking after the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God. The disobedience ends in repentance otherwise there was no real repentance.

A fornicator forsakes his fornication. An adulterer forsakes his adultery. An idolator forsakes his idolatry. A thief stops stealing. A Drunk stops getting drunk. A liar stops lying. A murderer stops murdering. The known sins stop.

In other words one does what the Prodigal Son did, they change their mind about sin and forsake it. The Prodigal Son left the pig pen and so does anyone else who wants to come to Christ. It is such a simple and plain message. There is no mystery. You don't approach God seeking forgiveness while you are still actively engaged in your rebellion. The rebellion has to stop. It stops in repentance. That is what repentance is for.

What did Isaiah teach?

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Stop sinning. Isn't that what Jesus told to the cripple he healed? Isn't that what Jesus told the woman caught in adultery? He told them to STOP SINNING.

Yet if one teaches that today you'll be labelled evil because the modern system teaches that you cannot stop sinning, even the sins of the flesh listed in 1Cor 6:9-10.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The things in that list have to STOP. God is not going to forgive anyone while the continue to do those things. Paul said it plainly, DO NOT BE DECEIVED, THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM.

Paul then defines the unrighteous by THEIR DEEDS. There is no forensic cloak to cover those things. Those who do those things are unrighteous. He who sins is of the devil, that is what the Bible states.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He who does what is right is righteous.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

It is no mystery. It is not cryptic. Even a little child can understand these things.

 

[mark54]

Why dont you answer the questions

A chap on another website told me he had more spiritual insight/knoweledge than the Apostles Peter, James, John and Paul.

He was utterly convinced that was true.

 

[mark54]

Jesus continually spoke of being a doer of the word.

What do we have to do? We have to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him.

What does that mean? It means we have to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive with meekness the implanted word.

In other words we have to STOP SINNING and by sinning I mean WILLFUL KNOWN TRANSGRESSION.

When Paul taught "repentance PROVEN by deeds" the deeds he was referring to was a changed life. A life where one was no longer walking after the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God. The disobedience ends in repentance otherwise there was no real repentance.

A fornicator forsakes his fornication. An adulterer forsakes his adultery. An idolator forsakes his idolatry. A thief stops stealing. A Drunk stops getting drunk. A liar stops lying. A murderer stops murdering. The known sins stop.

In other words one does what the Prodigal Son did, they change their mind about sin and forsake it. The Prodigal Son left the pig pen and so is anyone coming to Christ. It is such a simply and plain message. There is no mystery.

What did Isaiah teach?

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Stop sinning. Isn't that what Jesus told to the cripple he healed? Isn't that what Jesus told the woman caught in adultery? He told them to STOP SINNING.

Yet if one teaches that today you'll be labelled evil because the modern system teaches that you cannot stop sinning, even the sins of the flesh listed in 1Cor 6:9-10.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The things in that list have to STOP. God is not going to forgive anyone while the continue to do those things. Paul said it plainly, DO NOT BE DECEIVED, THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM.

Paul then defines the unrighteous by THEIR DEEDS. There is no forensic cloak to cover those things. Those who do those things are unrighteous. He who sins is of the devil, that is what the Bible states.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He who does what is right is righteous.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

It is no mystery. It is not cryptic. Even a little child can understand these things.

So we don't have to do any works/deeds, just tell others we have stopped sinning band crucified our flesh?

But we could fib and say that couldn't we

 

[loveme1]

Penal Substitution is basically the teaching that the believer swapped places with Jesus in a judicial sense.

The wages of sin is death (which is true). Therefore Jesus had all the sins of believers literally transferred to His account so that when God looked at Jesus He saw a guilty sinner. Jesus was then punished by God for being a guilty sinner. Thus the punishment is no longer due to the believer.

Attached to Penal Substitution is the teaching that the "obedience of Jesus" is literally transferred to the believers account.

So in other words the criminal record of the sinner is transferred to Jesus and He was punished for it. The perfect obedient track record of Jesus is transferred to the believer. Thus Jesus is a Penal Substitute for the sinner in a judicial sense.

The problem with this teaching is that it is not in the Bible. Jesus did not teach it nor did anyone else. A few Scriptures are used to support it like Psalm 53:4-5 but if you read those verses they do not say what people imply they say.

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Verse 4 says that "WE" esteemed Him stricken and smitten of God (from human perspective). Verse 5 says that Jesus was wounded, bruised and chastised on our behalf (due to our sin). Yet those verses do not say that Jesus absorbed the wrath of God as a guilty sinner on the cross.

Jesus was offered WITHOUT SPOT on our behalf.

Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 9:14 contradicts the assertion that He was spotted with our sin. He "bore" our sin and suffered, He WAS NOT punished by God for our sin. Sin is moral and the guilt cannot be transferred to someone else. If the guilt was transferred to Jesus and He was punished instead of us then it means that God does not forgive those sins but punished another instead.

The real kicker with this doctrine is that it is only 400 years old. You will not find any reference to Penal Substitution in the early church. Some reformers will find a few references using the word "substitute" in some writings but if you read the context you'll see it has nothing whatsoever to do with Penal Substitution.

The real problem with Penal Substitution (besides it being 400 years old and not found in the Bible) is that it relegates reconciliation to God as a mere "judicial exchange" and thus the application is PURELY FORENSIC. This is why you'll hear many theologians use the term "forensic justification."

Penal Substitution serves to give a sinner an assurance that they have been reconciled to God (through the judicial swap) while they remain in rebellion. It negates the true purpose of a genuine broken repentance where the rebellion is forsaken and one comes into an agreement with God.

Penal Substitution in effect has God PRETENDING that the sinner is righteous because of the legal exchange. Thus true righteousness which is something that flows from a heart that has been made clean (through union with Christ) is relegated to a secondary position. Read my first post again as I list some of my very specific objections to the doctrine. I view it as an extremely dangerous doctrine.

I linked the Wikipedia article because it describes how the doctrine developed. There have been quite a few views of the atonement throughout history. The early Church held to the Ransom, Moral Influence and Christis Victor views. Thus they taught that the death of Jesus on the cross was so that "we could die with Him."

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Carefully read the above Scripture. The wages of sin is death. Eternal life is THROUGH Jesus Christ.

Not carefully look at this Scripture...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

There are two laws. One law is that of sin and death. You sin you die! Yet God has given us a GIFT, a way out. That way out is THROUGH Jesus Christ. Notice in Rom 6:23 that IT DOES NOT SAY the "wages of righteousness is eternal life." This is because once someone sins the guilt cannot be undone, the conscience is permanently defiled. A return to obedience cannot undo what was done before. Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ the sinner is doomed.

So what Jesus did was He came to this earth and lives a perfectly obedient life of walking after the Spirit. He was an example for us. He offered Himself on behalf of our sins (sin offering) so that we can die with Him. Jesus basically reconciled the whole human race to God THROUGH HIM. Yet we have to ACCESS this gift.

Jesus purchased us from death and slavery (to sin) by His blood but we have to choose as to whether we leave death and slavery. This is why we must DIE WITH HIM.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

It is through DYING WITH HIM that we can be RAISED WITH HIM. Dying with Him means we crucify out old rebellious life, Paul calls it the "old man." That old man who earned death for sin must perish, either in this life, or at the judgment. We get to choose.

It is the SPIRIT OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST which sets us free. That is a life of walking in submission to the Spirit of God. We basically approach God through repentance and faith completely broken over our rebellion. We forsake our old ways and cry out to God for mercy. The blood of Jesus Christ purifies our consciences, it removes the guilt. It removes the curse of the law.

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

But WE have to die with Him. There is no DYING WITH HIM in Penal Substitution. That is why they do not preach on the crucifixion of the flesh. They treat the death of Christ as a judicial provision which you access simply by "trusting that it happened." There is no death of the old man, there is no cessation of rebellion, there is no crucifixion of the flesh. That is why it is so dangerous.

Penal Substitution, as i sad earlier, immunises the mind against the truth. If one is totally convinced that their salvation is rooted in the judicial exchange of Penal Substitution then it can be TERRIFYING to have it challenged because the person will feel naked before God. Also when one is confused about the issue, "questioning the doctrine" will often be viewed as delving into dangerous heresy. They'll feel like they are denying Christ because they have held onto this teaching for so long. Penal Substitution is a very powerful stronghold in the mind.

Yet those who hold it ought to really think about it. REALLY REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.

Why didn't the early church teach it?

Why is it only 400 years old?

They need to answer those questions.

Thank you, it was the term "penal substitution" being used that i was not familiar with.

 

[rauleetoe]

Jesus continually spoke of being a doer of the word.

What do we have to do? We have to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him.

What does that mean? It means we have to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive with meekness the implanted word.

In other words we have to STOP SINNING and by sinning I mean WILLFUL KNOWN TRANSGRESSION.

When Paul taught "repentance PROVEN by deeds" the deeds he was referring to was a changed life. A life where one was no longer walking after the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God. The disobedience ends in repentance otherwise there was no real repentance.

A fornicator forsakes his fornication. An adulterer forsakes his adultery. An idolator forsakes his idolatry. A thief stops stealing. A Drunk stops getting drunk. A liar stops lying. A murderer stops murdering. The known sins stop.

In other words one does what the Prodigal Son did, they change their mind about sin and forsake it. The Prodigal Son left the pig pen and so does anyone else who wants to come to Christ. It is such a simple and plain message. There is no mystery. You don't approach God seeking forgiveness while you are still actively engaged in your rebellion. The rebellion has to stop. It stops in repentance. That is what repentance is for.

What did Isaiah teach?

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Stop sinning. Isn't that what Jesus told to the cripple he healed? Isn't that what Jesus told the woman caught in adultery? He told them to STOP SINNING.

Yet if one teaches that today you'll be labelled evil because the modern system teaches that you cannot stop sinning, even the sins of the flesh listed in 1Cor 6:9-10.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The things in that list have to STOP. God is not going to forgive anyone while the continue to do those things. Paul said it plainly, DO NOT BE DECEIVED, THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM.

Paul then defines the unrighteous by THEIR DEEDS. There is no forensic cloak to cover those things. Those who do those things are unrighteous. He who sins is of the devil, that is what the Bible states.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He who does what is right is righteous.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

It is no mystery. It is not cryptic. Even a little child can understand these things.

Well I think that these here have slipped on a banana peel called cheap grace/false grace and hit their head and are unconscious. It's useless.
If you say, God wants us to live as christians are supposed to live. Then that's heretical. If you say, God has provided a way through his spirit. They say no, we are only dirty rotten sinners and cannot live for God.
If you say God is Holy, they automatically accuse you of saying they are better than them.
Remember, in the last days there will be some who will erect for themselves teachers who will tell them what they want to hear. You and I do not do that, so we will be ignored.

 

[Skinski7]

I linked this video on my opening post.

[video=youtube;caRZPc5SC10]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caRZPc5SC10[/video]

In that video the pastor is blatently teaching that "the sin you commit tomorrow is ALREADY forgiven." In other words if you were to go out an commit adultery tomorrow God has forgiven you already.

It simply BLOWS MY MIND that people defend that trash. Especially when the Bible says all over the place the wickedness must be forsaken BEFORE forgiveness is granted.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Modern theology has so messed up the minds of people that they will blatantly deny the plain words of scripture. They LOVE a sin gospel. They LOVE forgiveness IN SINS.

 

[rauleetoe]

Ditto. Had just typed a similar reply but decided against appealing to those whose works are "even greater than Christ's". And here all this time I thought Christ was referring to the greater works of spreading the gospel. This quote from rauleetoe ... post #57 ...

This is the danger of a belief in a mere forensic imputed Righteousness. Christ died so we can become like him,and he even said that he who believes in him,the works he does,they will do,and even greater!
For many it is just easier to appeal to a mere forensic imputed righteousness..its the easy route, so they can return to their sunday christian sinfull ways.

Christ himself said it..take it up with him sir.
He said, that he who believes in him(relies in him) that the works that he, Christ does, he will do..and greater. Because he goes to the Father.
Whats your issue with that? I am not saying i am greater..its because one is greater went to the Father that anything great is done?
So whats your beef? Sit on blessed assurance all for grace? or Pray like it depends all on God, and then work like it all depends on you.
Anything other than that is spiritual lethargy, or close to it.

 

[mark54]

I linked this video on my opening post.

[video=youtube;caRZPc5SC10]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caRZPc5SC10[/video]

In that video the pastor is blatently teaching that "the sin you commit tomorrow is ALREADY forgiven." In other words if you were to go out an commit adultery tomorrow God has forgiven you already.

It simply BLOWS MY MIND that people defend that trash. Especially when the Bible says all over the place the wickedness must be forsaken BEFORE forgiveness is granted.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Modern theology has so messed up the minds of people that they will blatantly deny the plain words of scripture. They LOVE a sin gospel. They LOVE forgiveness IN SINS.

What do you think this verse means Skinski

But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself
Heb9:26

 

[Abiding]

No one was talking to you directly sir..but if you have sin that needs repenting then handle that. By all means.
Having said that, no one was accusing, but many who appeal to grace either A)are licentious and seek to only see how much one can get away with and still be considered a christian B)run the risk of being licentious C)are religious about not being religious.

As far as theology, who mentioned theology this time? You did sir ninja Charismatic.
We can talk theology if you want to, but i am more concerned about the ignorance of calvinists here, mainly one who did not even know what double predestination was(a tenet of five point calvinism) Until I, an arminian, pointed out to him what it is, and he still did not even know what i was talking about.. and here he is trying to tell me what I believe. I do however believe its a mere hatred of that which he does not know, or hatred of anything that is not easy believism. Yes, I am calling you out Grandpa, I suggest you read some theology books before you go here and make a fool of yourself.

Your just going to drive folks into calvinism. Whats a ninja Charismatic?
No i dont use spell check, i know you will tell me when i spell wrong.

 

[loveme1]

Mark read through this:

Hebrews 10

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And having an high priest over the house of God;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[BarlyGurl]

I linked this video on my opening post.
In that video the pastor is blatently teaching that "the sin you commit tomorrow is ALREADY forgiven." In other words if you were to go out an commit adultery tomorrow God has forgiven you already.

It simply BLOWS MY MIND that people defend that trash. Especially when the Bible says all over the place the wickedness must be forsaken BEFORE forgiveness is granted.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Modern theology has so messed up the minds of people that they will blatantly deny the plain words of scripture. They LOVE a sin gospel. They LOVE forgiveness IN SINS.

Seems to me you are entirely missing the principals of being "born again", "dwelling in Christ" and "walking by the spirit"... I hadn't noticed anyone HERE blatantly teaching liscensiousness.

 

[mark54]

Mark read through this:

Hebrews 10

I have done many times, but thank you for posting it, I love Hebrews

 

[Abiding]

No one was talking to you directly sir..but if you have sin that needs repenting then handle that. By all means.
Having said that, no one was accusing, but many who appeal to grace either A)are licentious and seek to only see how much one can get away with and still be considered a christian B)run the risk of being licentious C)are religious about not being religious.

As far as theology, who mentioned theology this time? You did sir ninja Charismatic.
We can talk theology if you want to, but i am more concerned about the ignorance of calvinists here, mainly one who did not even know what double predestination was(a tenet of five point calvinism) Until I, an arminian, pointed out to him what it is, and he still did not even know what i was talking about.. and here he is trying to tell me what I believe. I do however believe its a mere hatred of that which he does not know, or hatred of anything that is not easy believism. Yes, I am calling you out Grandpa, I suggest you read some theology books before you go here and make a fool of yourself.

Your right. Im from apolos. I wonder are you spending too much time with spell check
to look at the fact you say you not accusing prior to accusing?
How do you spell....boasting?

 

[loveme1]

I have done many times, but thank you for posting it again, I love Hebrews

In light of your quote i hoped you may read it also, all is well

 

[mark54]

In light of your quote i hoped you may read it also, all is well

Perhasps you would share your understanding of what the writer is saying in Heb9:26

 

[BarlyGurl]

Mark read through this: Hebrews 10

do you think TODAY you might be able to express how you feel these verses from hebrews are relevant to the thread discussion????

 

[Skinski7]

It says exactly what it means. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you of all sin. When you die with Him and partake in His sufferings your heart is purged of rebellion. Your criminal record is wiped clean. We approach the mercy seat as a living sacrifice and we are sprinkled by the blood.

The sin is done away with. The bondage to sin ends. The rebellion ceases.

Read the verses before...

Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

There is a PURGING of sin. Past sins are remitted.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

See how the Scriptures match?

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


The Bible clearly speaks of PAST SINS being purged. Rom 3:25 and 2Pet 1:9 clearly testify to this. There is not a single scripture in the Bible that states that sins are forgiven in advance. In fact the pre-forgiveness of sin completely negates the need for repentance, it is an absurd position to hold. That is one reason that the pastor in the video above is a dangerous wolf who is clothed as a sheep.

Here he is giving people assurance that they can go out and sin tomorrow and remain justified. What a liar. What a deceiver. He is a minister of Satan.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Satan has so many people deceived today. Don't be one of them.

Someone who is deceived does not even know it.

 

[Abiding]

I did sir. But seeing as you are not a calvinist, or arminian, we all know you are just the devil's advocate, and a usefull instigator at best. I need not answer what you ask me to answer. Read my posts, if that does not satisfy you..well then..oh well.

Do you really really think i do a good job instigating? Thank you. I do make a honest effort.
But no you didnt answer Marks question not even a little bit. You call that "talk the talk" right?

 

[mark54]

do you think TODAY you might be able to express how you feel these verses from hebrews are relevant to the thread discussion????

Well ther's so many verses to choose from
However, I will be happy to give my thoughts on 'the law' generally

We know that Christ was harrassed, by religious people as a law breaker

We know that Steven the first Christian martyr was dragged before the sanhedrin(religious people) and stoned to death. One of the reasons?
He was ignoring the law

Paul said

Brothers, if I am still; preaching circumcision(ie law) why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offence of the cross has been abolished
Gal5:11

Why would the law be the offence of the cross?

Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law(self righteousness) but that which is by faith in Christ. The righteousness that comes from God and is by faith
Phil3:9

Many seem far more preoccupied with stressing the individual strives to obey the literal law, than giving God the glory for what HE does in them through faith in Christ and the sanctification of the Spirit

I think Paul had it spot on myself

 

[mark54]

It says exactly what it means. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you of all sin. When you die with Him and partake in His sufferings your heart is purged of rebellion. Your criminal record is wiped clean. We approach the mercy seat as a living sacrifice and we are sprinkled by the blood.

The sin is done away with. The bondage to sin ends. The rebellion ceases.

Read the verses before...

Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

There is a PURGING of sin. Past sins are remitted.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

See how the Scriptures match?

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


The Bible clearly speaks of PAST SINS being purged. Rom 3:25 and 2Pet 1:9 clearly testify to this. There is not a single scripture in the Bible that states that sins are forgiven in advance. In fact the pre-forgiveness of sin completely negates the need for repentance, it is an absurd position to hold. That is one reason that the pastor in the video above is a dangerous wolf who is clothed as a sheep.

Here he is giving people assurance that they can go out and sin tomorrow and remain justified. What a liar. What a deceiver. He is a minister of Satan.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Satan has so many people deceived today. Don't be one of them.

Someone who is deceived does not even know it.

Its good to read the whole chapter to understand the context