Can you Sin and Not Die?

homwardbound · Feb 7, 2013

I am not exactly sure of your ? I really only see it as i put it in the quote, I try not to read into things and make it something it is not, the Romans 7 road is an explanation of we are not to do which is try and do it ourselves we are to give up self so that God can perform through us instead of just in us, we are to renew our minds from God's vantage point, see through Father's eyes watch Father's smoke using us as vessels only, instead of our smoke with others praising us, which is commonly done in and through one's prideful flesh

zone · Feb 7, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special Divine aid. This is still sometimes called Limited Depravity. Thus, Adam's sin was "to set a bad example" for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to original sin. Pelagianism views the role of Jesus as "setting a good example" for the rest of humanity (thus counteracting Adam's bad example) as well as providing an atonement for our sins. In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for obeying the Gospel in addition to full responsibility for every sin (the latter insisted upon by both proponents and opponents of Pelagianism). According to Pelagian doctrine, because humans are sinners by choice, they are therefore criminals who need the atonement of Jesus Christ. Sinners are not victims, they are criminals who need pardon.

Pelagius taught that the human will, as created with its abilities by God, was sufficient to live a sinless life, although he believed that God's grace assisted every good work. Pelagius, taking what is still the standard Orthodox view, did not believe that all humanity was guilty in Adam's sin, but said that Adam had condemned humankind through bad example, and that Christ’s good example offered humanity a path to salvation, through sacrifice and through instruction of the will.

Pelagianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

Ariel82 · Feb 7, 2013

Skinski7 said:

you just like putting words into people. why are you so bitter?

The HOLY Spirit works godly sorrow unto repentance through the conviction of sin.

Salvation is through the HOLY SPIRIT.

you accuse a man of teaching unbiblical doctrine with these words:

"While that may sound good and while it may offer comfort to those who are still engaged in willful known sin it is simply not Biblical."

However you ignore what you accuse others of ignoring:

"The rebellion to God must cease in repentance. It looks like you are trying to lump "all sin" in the sense of non-presumptuous sin in with willful carnality. There is a difference."

he was talking about non presumptuous sin not willful carnality, yet you want to lecture and preach at him instead of actually reading his words.

I find it offensive how you are playing the hypocrite by IGNORING what anyone actually says.

why is it that you jump to such negative conclusion about others? why do you not see him telling people about nonpresumptious sin but automatically asssume he is trying to teach that its ok to willfully sin against God?

stop being so prideful and angry all the time. pray and actually try to listen to what people are actually saying.
ignore for once what your mind THINKS they are saying and pray and ask God what is ACTUALLY being said.
Stop Assuming and placing words into people's mouths that they never said or even thought.

zone · Feb 7, 2013

Skinski7 said:

if there's no salvation in sin, you're not saved.
which i'm convinced you're not.
i've seen tons of dry drunks.
same same.

zone · Feb 7, 2013

Skinski7 said:

have you addressed this anywhere yet?
if so, please do it again:

Acts 2
22“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25For David says concerning him,

“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’

29“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.’

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

were they actually saved?
yes or no.

tribesman · Feb 7, 2013

Time for the broom soon...

SarahM777 · Feb 7, 2013

zone said:

He hasn't answered this either,and this should be a quick either yes one does or no one does not.

Skinski,

For your own sake can you answer this Do you have the peace that passes all understanding and do you have joy?

Does the Holy Spirit do this in your life?

Romans 8

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[SUP][f][/SUP] And by him we cry, “Abba,[SUP][g][/SUP] Father.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Galatians 4

4 What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. [SUP]2 [/SUP]The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father.[SUP]3 [/SUP]So also, when we were underage, we were in slaveryunder the elemental spiritual forces[SUP][a][/SUP] of the world.[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, [SUP]5 [/SUP]to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]6 [/SUP]Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[SUP][c][/SUP] Father.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

Do you know what Abba means? It's a term used by small children. It means Daddy.

homwardbound · Feb 7, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

in and of the flesh this is a fact in and of the Spirit of God it states this all over the place Romans 6 as one example shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid don't you know those that have been baptized into Christ Jesus are baptized with him into his death with him.
Now baptisnm here is not water baptism it is Baptism of the Holy Ghost with fire in order to burn out ones sinful nature that we all were originally born with, and it takes one asking for this to take place for we have free will after we are saved through faith, freed from the bondage of sin, but not all are aware of this at first tha tis why God comes to live in you to teach one truth that he is the one in a twinkling of an eye has past you from death to life, and the ones that believe see this and walk with God renewing their thoughts of old unto new ones where they stay in the Spirit of God where there is no sin nor can be because all sin has been condemened to the flesh
I want to say God will carry on the work unto one not sinning but that does not mean forever for at any time anyone that has grown in the measure of God and gets boastful about this will slip up for flesh has tricked its way back in causing to sin again against God and their neighbor, So if and whenever this happens I am thankful that because of the grace of God that I can approach the throne of grace in confidence having an advocate Christ Jesus the righteous, knowing that I am already forgiven back at the cross of Christ the last sacrifice and forgiveness of sin, this is where I can be taught to say no to any further unrighteousness by Father for all sin as soon as it is past is forgiven period and once one gets past the forgiven issue is when they can be taught how to walk circumspectly by the Holy Ghost living in them while yet they might still sin, for Father is faithful and sees no sin bbecause of Christ Jesus's finished work at the cross, this way Father through the Holy Ghost deals with me, you and all believers that he has received on the basis of a new nature not on the basis of sin and death any longer. If it was still on the basis of sin and death none of us would be here for we all would be dead and no chance for a new life. So thank Father for His Son and thank Jesus for this wonderful gift of new life in and through what he did for any one that comes to belief in him, and God will carry on this good work in you the ones that do believe, just continue to endure to the end for God will never give anyone of us a snake but the world and those that are of this world will and do, but through God and trustiing God we have from God the ability to disccern truth from error by and through the Holy Ghost that lives in us through our belief in Christ

zone · Feb 7, 2013

tribesman said:

i wonder what's taking so long.

jimmydiggs · Feb 7, 2013

You'll need more than one broom.

homwardbound · Feb 7, 2013

mark54 said:

Yes and you along with many others here will balk at what I just said YES< YES< YES it is no longer an issue but this does not mean that I will never again sin in the future for I do not know the future holds nor can Iturn my hair white or black and I am not bragging for it is not I that has done this it is God that has done this to me for him and his glory. God has done this to all that Believe yet the problem is as long as ones conscience is not purged from sin they are going to continue in sin. How can one not sin by trusting God and having no thought of as in I got to quit, because I am sure all of you have this same experience, once the thoughts of sin are gone then one will not sin and thank God for this period. Ilive day by day trusting Father iun the finished work of Christ Jesus

mark54 · Feb 7, 2013

Skinski7 said:

The rebellion to God must cease in repentance. It looks like you are trying to lump "all sin" in the sense of non-presumptuous sin in with willful carnality. There is a difference.

Many don't believe this...

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I am hoping homewardbound will respond to a question I asked him. It concerns what you wrote. I would like to ask you the same question

What caused the 'wretch of Rom 7' (to use your words) to be in the state he was in?
Thank you

Skinski7 · Feb 7, 2013

zone said:

Let's examine this post in the light of Scripture and reason.

Zone sticks the label of "perfectionist heresy" to the teaching that "obedience to the truth is mandatory."

I think Zone ought specifically DEFINE what she means by "perfectionist heresy" in her own words instead of simply just banding the term around in an Ad Hominem way.

Is the cessation of rebellion in repentance "perfectionism"? I don't think so. When one forsakes their rebellion to God through a broken godly sorrow which worked a repentance unto salvation I don't think that individual is "perfect."

This "perfectionism heresy" seems to me like a strawman label which is used as a cover to denigrate the repentance message in order to make an allowance for ongoing rebellion.

Let's look at the word "Perfect" in the Bible.

Jesus said this...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect - G5046 -teleios
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Paul taught this...

Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

In the above passage the word "perfect" is used in verse 12 and 15. In the Greek those are two different words.

The first use is in the context of the resurrection of the dead and glorification. This word simply means perfect in the sense of the "end of something" and it can be used in many an application.

Perfect -G5048 - teleioō
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

The second use is in the context of something Paul claims to have already achieved and it is the same word Jesus used in Mat 5:48.

Perfect - G5046 - teleios
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Were Jesus and Paul preaching a "perfectionist heresy" in these instances? Or were they teaching that one's moral character can indeed be perfect? I think the answer is clear.

What was the context of Jesus statement in Mat 5:48?

First of all Jesus described some characteristics of the people of God.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Jesus then taught that he came to fulfill the law and not void it. He also clearly stated that our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Then Jesus explains further...

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

In the above passage Jesus refers to the "letter of the law" of "thou shalt not kill" but gives an expanded application relative to the "heart" because He ties "anger" to "murder."

Likewise Jesus does the same thing for adultery...

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

What was the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees? Jesus described it like this...

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

They OUTWARDLY appeared clean but INWARDLY were defiled. Therefore if our righteousness is to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees we must have the INSIDE of our cup clean.

This is the CLEAR CONTEXT of "be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect."

John wrote thus...

1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

John teaches that if we dwell in love we actually dwell in God and that God also dwells in us. It is in this that our love is made perfect or complete.

Is this perfectionist heresy too?

What about this...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Is a faith which works by love that upholds the law perfectionist heresy?

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Obviously righteousness is not of the deeds of the law. The Pharisees sought their righteousness in the deeds of the law but negated the aspect of LOVE FROM THEIR HEART thus outwardly they may not literally murder but inwardly they hated. Outwardly they may not literally commit adultery but inwardly they lusted.

Paul taught this...

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus taught that He came to fulfill the law (Mat 5:17). Paul taught that by walking after the Spirit we fulfill the righteousness of the law.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Is that perfectionist heresy?

The fruit of the Spirit is love.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

What is the opposite of walking in love? It is this...

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Is it any wonder that the Bible teaches that one must depart from iniquity.

Is teaching that it is MANDATORY that one must depart from iniquity perfectionist heresy?

Paul says this...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

and this...

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Can one be doing the above if they are still engaged in willful transgression? Is someone who is still in rebellion to God walking in the Spirit? Is walking in the Spirit MANDATORY? If one must depart from iniquity in order to WALK in the Spirit does that mean the departure from iniquity is mandatory?

Did the Prodigal Son have to depart from the pig pen or was he saved in the pig pen? Read Luke 15 to find out.

What does this verse mean?

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Is that "perfectionist heresy"?

What exactly is perfectionist heresy Zone? Please lay it out and with Scripture.

The Bible also speaks of the "perfecting of the saints."

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Is this perfecting of the saints "rebelling less and less" or has the rebellion already ceased? I think clearly the rebellion has already ceased because a Saint has ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION IN THE WORLD THROUGH LUST.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The lust that draws people into sin (Jam 1:14-15) the lusts which those who are Christ's have crucified (Gal 5:24) when their old man died whereby the body of sin was done away with (Rom 6:6) that they no longer serve sin (Rom 6:7, Rom 6:16-18).

Which puts them in a state whereby they can "add diligently to their faith"...

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I don't claim that when one comes to Christ through repentance and faith is "perfect" in the sense that they are "perfectly holy" or "perfect in wisdom and understanding."

I simply claim that the REBELLION TO GOD HAS CEASED.

If one is in rebellion then they must forsake that rebellion and return to God.

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

mark54 · Feb 7, 2013

homwardbound said:

My question was a simple one

What caused the wretch of Romans ch7(Skinskies words) to be in the state he was in?

Homewardbound,

With respect, I do not believe you have answered the question at all, and am not sure therefore if you understand what caused 'the wretch' to be in the state he was in

Skinski7 · Feb 7, 2013

SarahM777 said:

He hasn't answered this either,and this should be a quick either yes one does or no one does not.

Skinski,

For your own sake can you answer this Do you have the peace that passes all understanding and do you have joy?

Does the Holy Spirit do this in your life?

Romans 8

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[SUP][f][/SUP] And by him we cry, “Abba,[SUP][g][/SUP] Father.”[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Galatians 4

4 What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. [SUP]2 [/SUP]The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father.[SUP]3 [/SUP]So also, when we were underage, we were in slaveryunder the elemental spiritual forces[SUP][a][/SUP] of the world.[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,[SUP]5 [/SUP]to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]6 [/SUP]Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[SUP][c][/SUP] Father.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

Do you know what Abba means? It's a term used by small children. It means Daddy.

Yes I do and yes the Holy Spirit does that in my life.

Here is a question for you.

Does the rebellion to God have to CEASE in repentance? Or can one be in a state of salvation and in rebellion to God at the same time?

Or in practical terms can a pornography addict still be engaged in that sin and be saved at the very same time. Replace pornography addict with drunkard, idolator, thief, liar etc. if you like.

Skinski7 · Feb 7, 2013

Acts 2.

Of course they were saved. They were "cut to the heart" because they realised what they had done on killing Jesus and they "repented and were baptised." They RECEIVED the word.

They weren't out fornicating and getting drunk anymore. Also I am not saying they were out fornicating and getting drunk beforehand, I am just saying that they forsook their rebellion whatever it was. One cannot "receive" and "reject" at the same time. One cannot serve two masters.

Obviously they did this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

homwardbound · Feb 7, 2013

Skinski7 said:

While that may sound good and while it may offer comfort to those who are still engaged in willful known sin it is simply not Biblical.

Paul wrote that it is...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Yet you are saying that it is salvation worketh godly sorrow unto repentance.

Did Paul have the attitude that, "The ones that still sin on occassion and just sin yet whenever they do have a godly sorrow and begin their belief seeking out truth God will carry it on to completion, yes from God's vantage point the ones that believe are saved from God the Father's vantage point."

No he did not. Paul said this...

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

It appears you are trying to deceive people with vain words by teaching that "one is saved from God's perspective" while one "still engages in willful known sin?"

Whether you are doing this intentionally or not is not the issue. The fact is that you are offering people "assurance of salvation" whilst they "still yield unto sin."

You say, "No is right so how does one come to the truth that sets them free from sin?"

Paul tells us...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Those are not my words but Paul's. Do you believe them?

Paul plainly states that if you "yield to sin" you are a "slave of sin." You asked "how does one come to the truth that sets them free from sin?"

One comes to the "knowledge of the truth" by simply opening one's ears to the light of God wherever it may be found, whether through the light of conscience, a preacher, the Bible for it is the Holy Spirit that is at work in the world which convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Yes it is true that we can cry out to God to "ask God to purge your conscience from sin thereofre once you are purged through the cross." Yet do you really know that that means? I don't think you do.

In verse 17 of Romans 6 Paul speaks of "obedience from the heart to the doctrine delivered" as the method by which one is "set free." If one asks God for deliverance but refuses to do what God tells one to do then there will be no deliverance.

God is the author of the salvation of those whom obey Him. If you don't obey then God will not author your salvation because obedience is a necessary requirement.

What is this "doctrine once delivered" which Paul speaks of in verse 17? It is this...

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Whosoever sins and does not "abide in that doctrine" does not have God.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Can one be engaged in willful known sin and be abiding in the doctrine of Christ? Paul lays that to rest right here...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Is what you are teaching in agreement with the Bible? No! You are offering assurance of salvation whilst someone is still engaged actively in known sin, as long as they "believe." Yet you don't understand that those who truly "believe" also "yield to the measure of light they have been given." Again God is the author of salvation of those whom obey Him.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It is through obedience to the doctrine once delivered that one is set free from sin.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Didn't Paul teach that we are to "awake to righteousness and sin not"?

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

It is through the "knowledge of God" that we have all things that pertain to life and ungodliness by which we have the great and previous promises of God whereby we can partake in the divine nature HAVING ESCAPED the corruption in the world through lust.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Any person who is letting themselves be drawn away by the lusts of their flesh and is yielding to temptation and sinning is still a slave of sin and is not saved. That is what the Bible teaches...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

There are two roads. Obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death.

It is great error to offer those on the road of "sin unto death" assurance of "begin their belief seeking out truth God will carry it on to completion" because the REBELLION HAD TO CEASE. If the rebellion has not ceased then they NEVER REPENTED.

Again it is not "salvation unto godly sorrow working repentance" as you have CLEARLY implied. It is godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation.

Every single statement I have made is right from the Bible and is in perfect harmony with the context.

The issue is this...

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

One has to come to the light and let their deeds be reproved then one must WALK in the light and ONLY THEN will the blood cleanse one from all sin whic is the TRUE CONTEXT of 1Joh 1:8-10.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Hence this...

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Eternal life is given to those who patiently continue in doing good for they have truly repented and forsaken their sin. While those who refuse to obey the truth but rather continue to yield to unrighteousness they receive wrath.

Believe the Bible not the great swelling words of men which may "sound good" but are in reality nothing more than "candy coated poison."

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Skinski the devil used not complying with God went to throne of grace anbd accuses people allthe time of not walking right with God, today as I approach the throne there are the evil people of this world in alliance with the devil standing before the throne accusing and badgering God's chosen ones, but as I approch the throne I hear the accusations how I do not deserve to go in and be there, then I see Jesus sitting there at rest, and saying Go on in Homwardbound for you do beleive and are learning go on and get what you need from my Father, then he says to those accusers you are not allowed you who work iniquity thanks Skinski for your thoughts on how to get to heaven as in one has to be perfect before hand, in and of themselves. Yet as in what you have stated as this being the case is a lie and you are either deceived or deceving as many as you can only you can answer this are you the one outside the throne of grace accusing and belittling the believer,are you like a helicopter hovering over the people, you can not do this or that, When it is the freedom that sets one free to choose God over sin, and God teaches one to say no to sin, it has nothing to do with self trying to obey the law for by this effort one can not stop sinning and the devil himself is really good at this decepion

mark54 · Feb 7, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Which Comandments Skinsky?
Christ's literal commandments?

Do you strive to obey all of Christ's literal commandments?
No you don't

For you say the only works that are required of the Christian are inward. IE to put the flesh to death and not sin

So in your quote from revelation, which commandments are you telling others they should keep?
Who's commandments must be obeyed so a person may have the right to the tree of life?

Thanks

SarahM777 · Feb 7, 2013

Skinski7 said:

And what did I say about God's children that are in rebellion? Ask Jonah what it's like to rebel against God and see what happens. It is not a place you want to be. It is the one thing that God will deal with more harshly then anything else,especially His own children. You will be broken,no two ways about it. Whether it's one running into a brick wall or God intervines.

homwardbound · Feb 7, 2013

zone said:

Zone sorry you have misunderstood, I am not perfect in and of myself at all and never will be yet from God's viewpoint I am and so are you the day you first believed, And God from that day carries on the Good work God began in you 1 John 3:3 sister

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