Hatti,If christians believe that the Jews or anyone other people are worthless or they are going to hell because they do not believe what the many types of christians believe then its us christians who are damned. We are all god's chosen people and he endearingly love all of us. This is why i do not ever say someone is going to hell just because they do not believe what i believe. There is a reason many are called and few are chosen and i think you can see why. I would prefer no one has to go to hell but christians these days are not a single type anymore.
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T
LOL, I'm laughing my head off. If you think you had problems, try saying on here that Jews during the Christian era could be saved without accepting New Testament doctrine. They will boil you in oil for it. But Jesus doesn't care about our hallowed doctrines, no matter what they are, He cares that we have a repentant, humble and contrite heart towards God.
The point being; Some who have dotted all their doctrinal I's, crossed all their doctrinal T's and jumped through all their doctrinal hoops are still on the way to hell, while others who have done none of the above will be in heaven.
It's like that poor publican said while beating his breast, "God be merciful to me a sinner."
The point being; Some who have dotted all their doctrinal I's, crossed all their doctrinal T's and jumped through all their doctrinal hoops are still on the way to hell, while others who have done none of the above will be in heaven.
It's like that poor publican said while beating his breast, "God be merciful to me a sinner."
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A
he doesn't believe that Jesus is God, you know the WORD part of the Trinity... one of the reason Zone calls him an Arian, but i suggest not getting into the debate unless you want to spend a few hours on it.
one of the reasons I'm playing in the sand instead. you may join me in building a sandcastle if you like...
one of the reasons I'm playing in the sand instead. you may join me in building a sandcastle if you like...
A
mmmm..... i need to make dinner and oil will be used.....
so you are saying Jews can be saved without believing in JESUS?
yes they love their made up messiah. Yet they DENY Jesus is the Messiah and that allows them to be saved?
I think i'm just going to make some pizza now....maybe if I have time I'll actually read the thread instead of just scanning it.
so you are saying Jews can be saved without believing in JESUS?
yes they love their made up messiah. Yet they DENY Jesus is the Messiah and that allows them to be saved?
I think i'm just going to make some pizza now....maybe if I have time I'll actually read the thread instead of just scanning it.
You know I'll be honest. If I had not been attacked as I have by people who class themselves as Trinitarian I may have been more anti your beliefs, but I see you as far less judgemental and condemning than some of them, and you are right, that counts for much
And you are right about those who have dotted the I's and crossed the Ts of doctrine, absolutely
Well over 90% of people who attend Trinitarian churches(more like over 95% but I will be conservative) would never dream of expecting a person to believe anymore than Christ is the Son of God. And these people in the churches would not have read anywhere near the doctrine people have on these websites. I reckon over 90% of them have never heard of the ontological/'econimc trinity(I never had)
And you know what, they know more that matters than those who have swamped themselves in theologians and scholars and come on the internet, of that I am sure
For they would not countenance condemning anyone for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, by adding to any requirement he set unto salvation
The more these people study their theologians and scholars, the further they go away from Holy Spirit led truth
It is pure head theology of the academic mind
You have my sympathy for the attacks you have received, and I admire you fo not, thus far letting the rabble bully you off this website
As Paul said
Where is the wise man, where is the scholar, where is the philosopher of this age?...........................
And you are right about those who have dotted the I's and crossed the Ts of doctrine, absolutely
Well over 90% of people who attend Trinitarian churches(more like over 95% but I will be conservative) would never dream of expecting a person to believe anymore than Christ is the Son of God. And these people in the churches would not have read anywhere near the doctrine people have on these websites. I reckon over 90% of them have never heard of the ontological/'econimc trinity(I never had)
And you know what, they know more that matters than those who have swamped themselves in theologians and scholars and come on the internet, of that I am sure
For they would not countenance condemning anyone for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, by adding to any requirement he set unto salvation
The more these people study their theologians and scholars, the further they go away from Holy Spirit led truth
It is pure head theology of the academic mind
You have my sympathy for the attacks you have received, and I admire you fo not, thus far letting the rabble bully you off this website
As Paul said
Where is the wise man, where is the scholar, where is the philosopher of this age?...........................
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H
I appreciate your responses, I feel quite safe! I know whom I believeth! The point of being in such a forum for me is to read and appreciate where others are coming from, hone my discernment and be directed to interesting pieces to read both in and out of the Bible. I find it strengthens my faith and as I am quite isolated in my walk, I find it nice to pop in here, I listen to Christian radio, do studies etc , read my Bible...it's all helpful on keeping my thoughts and eyes on Him. There are many ways to hear God and I am often prompted to re assess things I read here, or look at something in a different way. I am also constantly reminded that Christians do behave rather badly to one another! While stating how much love they have 
so it checks me, do I do that too? All good, all a learning curve. Thank you <><
so it checks me, do I do that too? All good, all a learning curve. Thank you <><
C
I like to post the following from Gotquestions. It not only shows where I stand but the Scriptural links also gives a clearer understanding as to where the Jews stand. Hope it helps.
Question: "Are Jews saved because they are God's chosen people? Do Jews have to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved?"
Answer:Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6). The “no one” He referred to includes Jews and Gentiles. Jews are not saved because they are God’s chosen people, but because they believe in Jesus Christ as their true Messiah. There are many Messianic Jews who have accepted Yeshua (the Hebrew word for “Jesus”) as their Messiah.
However, there is no doubt that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. “For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…” (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).
From all the nations and people on the earth, why exactly did God “choose” the Jews? John Gill, in hisExposition of the Entire Bible, says the Jews were “chosen for special service and worship, and to enjoy special privileges and benefits, civil and religious; though they were not chosen to special grace…or eternal glory.” The Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all the nations of the earth (Genesis 12). The Jews were chosen to be a light to the Gentiles. So then, are all Jews “saved” just because they are Jews?
According to many modern rabbinical scholars the Christian concept of salvation from sin has no equal in Judaism. Judaism does not believe that man, by his nature, is evil or sinful and therefore believes that man has no need to be “saved” from an eternal damnation. In fact, most Jews today do not believe in a place of eternal punishment or a literal hell. The Hebrew root word for “sin” ischayt, which literally means “to miss the mark.” It is a term commonly used in archery, of one who “misses the mark” of the bull’s-eye. When a Jew misses the mark and occasionally falls into the sin of failing to fulfill the laws of God, the belief is that he can obtain forgiveness through prayer, repentance and doing good deeds.
The book of Leviticus (17:11), the third book of the Torah, clearly gives the prescription for forgiveness: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.” The temple sacrifice was always the centerpiece for Jewish atonement. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), the Levitical High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies in the temple and sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the mercy seat. Through this yearly act, atonement was made for the sins of all Israel, but the Holy Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70, and for almost 2,000 years, Jews have been without a temple, a sacrifice, and a means of atonement.
TheBrit Chadasha(the New Covenant or New Testament) teaches us that the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ, came to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) precisely at the time preceding the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. “But when Messiah arrived as a High Priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more complete Tabernacle, not made with hands—that is, not of this creation—and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered into the Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been made common, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Messiah, Who through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the Living God?” (Hebrews 9:11-14).
The New Testament teaches that all of us, Jews and Gentiles, have “missed the mark” (Romans 3:23). All of us are under the consequences of sin, and “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). We are all in need of salvation from our sin; we are all in need of a Savior. The New Testament teaches that Jesus the Messiah is “the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father” but through Him (John 14:6) And, most importantly, “there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which it is necessary for us to be saved" (Acts 4:12).
For the Jews, Jesus the Messiah has come as High Priest and through His once-for-all sacrifice for sin offers complete atonement to all people. For there is “no distinction” between Jew and Gentile (Romans 10:12). Yes, the Jews are God’s chosen people, and through them came the Jewish Messiah to bless all the nations of the earth. And it is only through Jesus that Jews can find God’s complete atonement and forgiveness.
While individual Jews must come to Christ for salvation, God is still not finished with Israel as a nation. The Bible tells us that in the end times, Israel will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10).Jeremiah 33:8,Ezekiel 11:17, andRomans 11:26predict that in the end times Israel will be regenerated, restored, and regathered in their homeland. This regathering took place in 1948 when Israel was recognized as a sovereign country by the United Nations. (Please see our article onIsrael’s role in the end times.) Clearly, God is not finished with the Jewish people.
Read more:Are Jews saved because they are God's chosen people? Do Jews have to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved?
Question: "Are Jews saved because they are God's chosen people? Do Jews have to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved?"
Answer:Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6). The “no one” He referred to includes Jews and Gentiles. Jews are not saved because they are God’s chosen people, but because they believe in Jesus Christ as their true Messiah. There are many Messianic Jews who have accepted Yeshua (the Hebrew word for “Jesus”) as their Messiah.
However, there is no doubt that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. “For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…” (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).
From all the nations and people on the earth, why exactly did God “choose” the Jews? John Gill, in hisExposition of the Entire Bible, says the Jews were “chosen for special service and worship, and to enjoy special privileges and benefits, civil and religious; though they were not chosen to special grace…or eternal glory.” The Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all the nations of the earth (Genesis 12). The Jews were chosen to be a light to the Gentiles. So then, are all Jews “saved” just because they are Jews?
According to many modern rabbinical scholars the Christian concept of salvation from sin has no equal in Judaism. Judaism does not believe that man, by his nature, is evil or sinful and therefore believes that man has no need to be “saved” from an eternal damnation. In fact, most Jews today do not believe in a place of eternal punishment or a literal hell. The Hebrew root word for “sin” ischayt, which literally means “to miss the mark.” It is a term commonly used in archery, of one who “misses the mark” of the bull’s-eye. When a Jew misses the mark and occasionally falls into the sin of failing to fulfill the laws of God, the belief is that he can obtain forgiveness through prayer, repentance and doing good deeds.
The book of Leviticus (17:11), the third book of the Torah, clearly gives the prescription for forgiveness: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.” The temple sacrifice was always the centerpiece for Jewish atonement. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), the Levitical High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies in the temple and sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the mercy seat. Through this yearly act, atonement was made for the sins of all Israel, but the Holy Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70, and for almost 2,000 years, Jews have been without a temple, a sacrifice, and a means of atonement.
TheBrit Chadasha(the New Covenant or New Testament) teaches us that the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ, came to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) precisely at the time preceding the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. “But when Messiah arrived as a High Priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more complete Tabernacle, not made with hands—that is, not of this creation—and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered into the Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been made common, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Messiah, Who through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the Living God?” (Hebrews 9:11-14).
The New Testament teaches that all of us, Jews and Gentiles, have “missed the mark” (Romans 3:23). All of us are under the consequences of sin, and “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). We are all in need of salvation from our sin; we are all in need of a Savior. The New Testament teaches that Jesus the Messiah is “the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father” but through Him (John 14:6) And, most importantly, “there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which it is necessary for us to be saved" (Acts 4:12).
For the Jews, Jesus the Messiah has come as High Priest and through His once-for-all sacrifice for sin offers complete atonement to all people. For there is “no distinction” between Jew and Gentile (Romans 10:12). Yes, the Jews are God’s chosen people, and through them came the Jewish Messiah to bless all the nations of the earth. And it is only through Jesus that Jews can find God’s complete atonement and forgiveness.
While individual Jews must come to Christ for salvation, God is still not finished with Israel as a nation. The Bible tells us that in the end times, Israel will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10).Jeremiah 33:8,Ezekiel 11:17, andRomans 11:26predict that in the end times Israel will be regenerated, restored, and regathered in their homeland. This regathering took place in 1948 when Israel was recognized as a sovereign country by the United Nations. (Please see our article onIsrael’s role in the end times.) Clearly, God is not finished with the Jewish people.
Read more:Are Jews saved because they are God's chosen people? Do Jews have to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved?
And you are spot on in my opinion as to how you witness. To go up to someone with deeply held religious views and immediately tell them they are headed for hell unless they see it your way will just put their backs up and achieve nothing.
You are obviously led of the Holy Spirit in witnessing as you do in the above and not the theological mindset, and the results you see prove this to be true
You are obviously led of the Holy Spirit in witnessing as you do in the above and not the theological mindset, and the results you see prove this to be true
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Just a quick question what do you do with these words by Jesus,(Remember he is speaking to Jews)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.[SUP]32 [/SUP]There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]“You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth.[SUP]34 [/SUP]Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. [SUP]35 [/SUP]John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.[SUP]37 [/SUP]And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, [SUP]38 [/SUP]nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. [SUP]39 [/SUP]You study[SUP][c][/SUP] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, [SUP]40 [/SUP]yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“I do not accept glory from human beings, [SUP]42 [/SUP]but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. [SUP]43 [/SUP]I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. [SUP]44 [/SUP]How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[SUP][d][/SUP]?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. [SUP]46 [/SUP]If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. [SUP]47 [/SUP]But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
Luke 16
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [SUP]20 [/SUP]At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [SUP]21 [/SUP]and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.[SUP]24 [/SUP]So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.[SUP]26 [/SUP]And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, [SUP]28 [/SUP]for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.[SUP]32 [/SUP]There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]“You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth.[SUP]34 [/SUP]Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. [SUP]35 [/SUP]John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.[SUP]37 [/SUP]And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, [SUP]38 [/SUP]nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. [SUP]39 [/SUP]You study[SUP][c][/SUP] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, [SUP]40 [/SUP]yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“I do not accept glory from human beings, [SUP]42 [/SUP]but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. [SUP]43 [/SUP]I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. [SUP]44 [/SUP]How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[SUP][d][/SUP]?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. [SUP]46 [/SUP]If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. [SUP]47 [/SUP]But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
Luke 16
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [SUP]20 [/SUP]At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [SUP]21 [/SUP]and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.[SUP]24 [/SUP]So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.[SUP]26 [/SUP]And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, [SUP]28 [/SUP]for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
R
Please don't be discouraged. I've come to find out that just like other people that Christians are very diverse. All people see things differently and some think "their way" is the only way. Some are more argumentative than others. I just ignore anything I don't agree on or people who get on here just to argue with others. You know what's right don't let other people's views and attitude discourage your walk with God
This has been my concern lately, that new believers will come here and have to deal with all the disagreements.
On this site exists a wide variety of people and beliefs, the same as in the world. We must be sure to test everything with scripture, because not all have the truth.
The most important thing to get right is the gospel. If one is born again, of God, they are part of the body of Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit. Then there will be 'discussions' here on non salvational issues, like end times events, which many have differing opinions on, so much so that each belief has a name to it, and many will fight their case and be argumentative. I've seen it often.
Debates do encourage more study of God's word, but in the last few months I've noticed things have been pretty bad here, and people getting hot headed that have usually been pretty calm in the forums. Hope you're not discouraged by all this.
On this site exists a wide variety of people and beliefs, the same as in the world. We must be sure to test everything with scripture, because not all have the truth.
The most important thing to get right is the gospel. If one is born again, of God, they are part of the body of Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit. Then there will be 'discussions' here on non salvational issues, like end times events, which many have differing opinions on, so much so that each belief has a name to it, and many will fight their case and be argumentative. I've seen it often.
Debates do encourage more study of God's word, but in the last few months I've noticed things have been pretty bad here, and people getting hot headed that have usually been pretty calm in the forums. Hope you're not discouraged by all this.
P
It really is overwhelming, at first. Don't worry, though, just get the main of your teaching at your local church.
There's a lot to be learned here, if you wish to stay.
But if you're a new believer, or not well taught, you may wish to stick to some of the other forums for now.
welcome, anyhoo.
-ellie
There's a lot to be learned here, if you wish to stay.
But if you're a new believer, or not well taught, you may wish to stick to some of the other forums for now.
welcome, anyhoo.
-ellie