The Trinity

[mark54]

That's not exactly what I said. What I said is that those pastors who teach against key elements of the Christian faith, or what Scripture indicates to be apart of that faith (i.e., 2 Peter 1.1 does indicate that Christ's Deity was a key tenet to both, the author, and his congregations faith), those are the ones that stand condemned. The churches around here (unless they're Reformed, or apart of the Southern Baptist Convention), they usually do not tend to have strong doctrinal sermons as they should. That does not necessarily mean that the pastor of that congregation stands condemned just because one Sunday they preach something other than Trinitarian doctrine. There are other very important doctrines that are also salvific, the Trinity is just one in a pool of others (though, I would consider it to be high on the "priori-tie" list).

So you don't feel you bcan forthrightly reply again, OK. THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE

'And I would refer you to my post prior to your previous post. The answer is really quite clear. While I do not condemn them, I would be one to say that if they do not adhere to what the Scriptures proclaim, that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by nature, then they stand condemned'

AND THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE EARLIER:

I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong'





And you have also stated that in your opinion according to scripture a person must believe Christ is the son of God and God Hismelf unto salvation, one or the other of those is not enouigh belief on its own as to who Christ is unto salvation

But despite what you believe you will not condemn as unfit to preach the Gospel any minister who refuses to state from the pulpit salvational belief to their flock in rspect of telling them they must believe Christ is the son of God and God Himself unto salvation
Ansd so all that learning you have done of scholars and theologians can't help you here can it, in truth it leaves you in an impossible position, where you have to try and user your undoubted dexterity skills with words to get you out of trouble

 

[mark54]

Re: You have nothing...

Just an addition if I may:


Psa 82:6 KJV - I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Isa 41:23 KJV - Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye [are] gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold [it] together.
Jhn 10:34 KJV - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Jhn 8:28 KJV - Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.


If he speaks only of the things that the Father teaches him, what is being said in the prior verses? Maybe he is making an example of being gods!!!

I would myself have quoted John 10:35 &Heb1:8&9 but my only concern here is the extra bilical demands being made by a few for salvation

 

[mark54]

Re: You have nothing...

John 17:3 has been explained. If you can not see the clarity of the plain text, it is no one's fault but your's.
It clearly states that you must believe on both the Father and the Son.

It says the Father is the one true God, if you want to do gymnastics with the plain text JL that is up to you

 

[mark54]

This is because they do not see Jehovah as being indwelt in the Body. They see that the Body is God.

Nope it is because they know if they preach it from the pulpit they will be there to be shot at. But also as a Trinitarian minister on another website said to me:

'If I preach that, I will clear my church of nearly all the sincere Christians in it'

 

[Bowman]

squawwwwk...

Squawwwk...you're not answering my question!

Squawwwk...you're not answering my question!

Squawwwk...you're not answering my question!

 

[mark54]

Re: You have nothing...

While I cannot produce a passage that says word-for-word what you want it to say, "Unless you believe Christ is God, you cannot be saved," what I have done is cite something a bit more powerful. I have not only cited a passage which propounds upon the Deity of Christ (and very strongly so), but it also describes the faith of the author and his audience. Moreover, the author says that the faith was "received," or "obtained," and genuine faith comes from God (Romans 12.3; 2 Thessalonians 1.3; Philippians 1.29).

1. Originally Posted by mark54
​

OK
Well if I understand you correctly you are saying a person must believe Christ is the son of God and God Himself unto salvation, one without the other is not enough. Bearing in mind what I have highlighted of your post
Will you roundly condemn as unfit to preach the Gosepl, any minister who will not plainly state from the pulpit that in order for a person to inherit eternal life they MUST believe Christ is not only the Son of God but God Himaself also.A belief he is simply the Son of God and no more is insufficient and means aperson cannot be saved with thatbelief and will therefore go to hell(Mark)

That is, after all, what Scripture proclaims(your response)

But then you write

While I cannot produce a passage that saysword-for-word what you want it to say, "Unless you believe Christ is God,you cannot be saved(your response again)

See the problem is for you, you do not have any plain scripture that states what you believe is salvific belief, whereas I have plenty of plain scripture that states what I know is necessary salvific belief. So why are you in trouble in that you cannot provide any plain scripture to back up your belief as what salvation hinges on believing?
Simple answer, because you are wrong. Now I have nothing against you, you seem like a nice enough chap to me, but I get the opinion if ever there was a hard studier on the internet, a would be scholar/theologian, you would be it!. You have read vastly haven’t you? I bet you could run rings round me in as philosophical discussion. However, there is a vast difference between Spirit led truth, and truth achieved by looking to scholars and theologians and relying on the brilliance of the academic mind to learn through great study and hard work. And I accept you do I am sure have great academic ability.

But, you are not led of the Holy Spirit in this subject, and therefore have no true understandingof it. You reason according to the intellectual mind of man, not the spiritual reality. You judge according to the letter of your theology. But you see the plain truth is this. Christ only commanded us to believe he was the Son of God unto salvation, not God Himself, and this is all that interests me here. So did Christ get it wrong? According to you he did. For according to you, in effect he did not make clear salvational belief, he fell short. Not only did Christ, but also Peter, James, John, and Paul for by your own admission none of them plainly told anyone they must believe Christ is the one true God untos alvation. You cannot produce a plain scripture to that effect

Why didn’t they? We are not talking here according to you about some minor issue, but what to you eternal life hinges on believing. So why did they not plainly spell it out. You must believe Christ is the son of God AND God Himself unto salvation .According to you a minister is obligated to preach the truth from the pulpit and the consequences of getting it wrong concerning salvational belief. Therefore you must believe those Apostles were obligated to plainly preach it too. So why didn’t they? Only two reasons possible. Either they were not blessed with the knowledge you and some others are today, or they woefully let down their readers. Which do you think is more likely?
But ultimately Trinitarian belief stands against you. For if you are led by the Holy Spirit to believe as you do in contradicting the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down unto salvation by adding to it, then the Spirit of God must contradict the word of God, in Trinitarian terms God then contradicts God and the belief collapses.

I wonder if you have ever got down on your knees and begged God from your heart to show you truth from the Holy Spirit, and trusted him completely to show you what you may learn. Scripturally that must be impossible, and sadly, that leaves you with wasted head knowledge, for in effect you condemn people for standing on the plain words of Christ unto salvation. And a day is coming when all of you people who do this will be answerable for it, on that day there will be no audience, no one to impress, and I wonder what you and others will say

 

[mark54]

Re: squawwwwk...

Squawwwk...you're not answering my question!

Squawwwk...you're not answering my question!

Squawwwk...you're not answering my question!

Such maturity leaves me speechless

 

[Bowman]

Re: squawwwwk...

Squawwwk...you're not answering my question!

Squawwwk...I'm going to place you on ignore!

Squawwwk...you're not answering my question!

Bump.......

 

[in-God-we-trust]

I have a couple general bible questions about the Trinity.

Does God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost appear to any ONE profit within the bible simultaneously?
If so, how many times OR can I get an example of just one time, please?

Please do not use the word Holy Ghost, better use Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit ist not a Ghost which reportedly appears in old english castles at midnight! It has nothing really nothing to do with that!

 

[in-God-we-trust]

The trinity is simple:

God is the glorious God Almighty who created the universe and beyond! He is the Father of the man and Son of God Jesus Christ, whose mother was Mary a human being. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God which reins the universe with various laws. When we human beings believe in Jesus Christ then we are connected to this Holy Spirit and through the Holy Spirit to one another, like you and me are online or connected to the internet right now.

 

[crosspreacher]

But you told me the Holy Spirit accompanied the Israelites in the wilderness, this is what God said to Moses:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”
Ex33:2&3

If God did not go with the Israelites, but the Holy Spirit did, how can the Holy Spirit be the one true God?

Exo.33 vs 12; Moses talked there with the Lord and said to Him," You have been telling me,'Take these people to the promise land' but you haven't told me whom you will send with me. You say you are my Friend, and that I have found favor before you; please , if this is really so, guide me along the way you want me to travel so that I will understand you and walk acceptably before You. For don't forget that this nation is your people."
And the Lord replied," I MYSELF WILL GO with you and give you success."
John 4 vs 24:" God is Spirit ,and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth".

 

[crosspreacher]

Luk 1:35 KJV - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This is the meaning of Mat. 1:20

vs 37; "For with God nothing will be impossible."
The Holy Spirit is God

 

[mark54]

Exo.33 vs 12; Moses talked there with the Lord and said to Him," You have been telling me,'Take these people to the promise land' but you haven't told me whom you will send with me. You say you are my Friend, and that I have found favor before you; please , if this is really so, guide me along the way you want me to travel so that I will understand you and walk acceptably before You. For don't forget that this nation is your people."
And the Lord replied," I MYSELF WILL GO with you and give you success."
John 4 vs 24:" God is Spirit ,and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth".

will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”[SUP]4 [/SUP]When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For the Lord had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.’” [SUP]6 [/SUP]So the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb.
eX33:2-4

Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. [SUP]16 [/SUP]How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
12-17

Note in the above God did not tell Moses he had changed his mind and would go with them, but His prescence would go with them


In all their distress he too was distressed,
and the angel of his presence saved them.[SUP][a][/SUP]
In his love and mercy he redeemed them;
he lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
Isaiah63:9&10

So we know God did not go with the Israelites, but the angel of His Prescence did go with them, we also know Christ accompanied them(1Cor10:4)

So if Christ, and the Spirit accompanied the Israelites, but God did not go with them, how can the Holy Spirit or Christ be Termed God Himself(the one true God)

 

[crosspreacher]

will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”[SUP]4 [/SUP]When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For the Lord had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.’” [SUP]6 [/SUP]So the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb.
eX33:2-4

Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. [SUP]16 [/SUP]How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
12-17

Note in the above God did not tell Moses he had changed his mind and would go with them, but His prescence would go with them


In all their distress he too was distressed,
and the angel of his presence saved them.[SUP][a][/SUP]
In his love and mercy he redeemed them;
he lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
Isaiah63:9&10

So we know God did not go with the Israelites, but the angel of His Prescence did go with them, we also know Christ accompanied them(1Cor10:4)

So if Christ, and the Spirit accompanied the Israelites, but God did not go with them, how can the Holy Spirit or Christ be Termed God Himself(the one true God)

VS 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and your people unless you go with us?
Vs 17 I will do every thing that you ask.
Moses asked God to go Himself with him.
So the Holy Spirit is God! How can God not be in the presence of God?

 

[mark54]

VS 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and your people unless you go with us?
Vs 17 I will do every thing that you ask.
Moses asked God to go Himself with him.
So the Holy Spirit is God! How can God not be in the presence of God?

Well I realise you have to say that to keep your beliefs, but God was clear, he would not go with them, but His Prescence would, the angel of His prescence

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

So you don't feel you bcan forthrightly reply again, OK. THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE

'And I would refer you to my post prior to your previous post. The answer is really quite clear. While I do not condemn them, I would be one to say that if they do not adhere to what the Scriptures proclaim, that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by nature, then they stand condemned'

AND THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE EARLIER:

I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong'





And you have also stated that in your opinion according to scripture a person must believe Christ is the son of God and God Hismelf unto salvation, one or the other of those is not enouigh belief on its own as to who Christ is unto salvation

But despite what you believe you will not condemn as unfit to preach the Gospel any minister who refuses to state from the pulpit salvational belief to their flock in rspect of telling them they must believe Christ is the son of God and God Himself unto salvation
Ansd so all that learning you have done of scholars and theologians can't help you here can it, in truth it leaves you in an impossible position, where you have to try and user your undoubted dexterity skills with words to get you out of trouble

It seems you have a real problem following conversations. I have restated myself many times, yet you don’t even slightly seem to get the gist of what I’m saying. Never did I say or even suggest that “nearly all of Trinitarian ministers stand condemned.” I do not believe that nearly every Trinitarian minister stands condemned. That’s something you are assuming. Yes, I believe it is a minister’s responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong. I also said, “if they do not adhere to what the Scriptures proclaim, that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by nature, then they stand condemned.” And it is true, I absolutely do believe that… now what exactly is your point? Do you even have one? I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade.

Consider for a moment that Jack believed Christ was the Son of God, yet he believed that Jesus' physical body was an illusion, as was his crucifixion; that is, Jesus only seemed to have a physical body and to physically die, but in reality he was incorporeal, a pure spirit, and hence could not physically die. Is Jack saved?

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

So if Christ, and the Spirit accompanied the Israelites, but God did not go with them, how can the Holy Spirit or Christ be Termed God Himself(the one true God)

Just because one is called "God" does not preclude the other from also being called "God." We see examples of this throughout Scripture, such as John 1.1 ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"), John 1.18 ("No one has ever seen God;the only One, Himself God, who is at the Father's side, He has made him known"), et al.

 

[mark54]

It seems you have a real problem following conversations. I have restated myself many times, yet you don’t even slightly seem to get the gist of what I’m saying. Never did I say or even suggest that “nearly all of Trinitarian ministers stand condemned.” I do not believe that nearly every Trinitarian minister stands condemned. That’s something you are assuming. Yes, I believe it is a minister’s responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong. I also said, “if they do not adhere to what the Scriptures proclaim, that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by nature, then they stand condemned.” And it is true, I absolutely do believe that… now what exactly is your point? Do you even have one? I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade.

Consider for a moment that Jack believed Christ was the Son of God, yet he believed that Jesus' physical body was an illusion, as was his crucifixion; that is, Jesus only seemed to have a physical body and to physically die, but in reality he was incorporeal, a pure spirit, and hence could not physically die. Is Jack saved?

You've lost me with Jack, and I am afraid what I have highlighted of your post makes no sense to me, but not much point in keep going over it. I appreciate it is a difficult point for you to forthrightly address, but I will compliment you, that you have gone further than has anyone else in trying to

 

[mark54]

Just because one is called "God" does not preclude the other from also being called "God." We see examples of this throughout Scripture, such as John 1.1 ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"), John 1.18 ("No one has ever seen God;the only One, Himself God, who is at the Father's side, He has made him known"), et al.

So where is the scripture that states a person must believe Jesus is the Son of God, AND the one true God Himself in order to inherit eternal life, THE PLAIN SCRIPTURE

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

John's statement in 1 John 5.20 shows that the One who is eternal life is also the true God. In the context, the Lord Jesus Christ is the nearest antecedent of "He is" (houtos). This point, along with 1 John 1.2, makes it apparent that John is calling the Lord Jesus the true God.

You may disagree and claim that John has already identified someone else as the One who is true, namely God. Furthermore, the Lord Jesus in John 17.3 called the Father the only true God, however, in context neither of them deny that Christ isn't God, and I have referred you to my work on a previous thread, here.

However, should you object, this doesn't solve the dilemma for you, but only strengthens the Trinitarian argument. Your interpretation leaves us with two individuals who are called eternal life, the Father and the Son. This would only prove that the Lord Jesus is equal to the Father in essence and nature, having a characteristic that only God intrinsically possesses. That is unless, of course, you want to claim that even creatures can be called eternal life.

As I have also pointed out previously, 2 Peter 1.1 describes the faith of the author and his audience, while maintaining that Christ is both, "our God and Savior."