Prayer of Renunciation

[my_adonai_]

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[my_adonai_]

i do not understand what these alters are.. help..

 

[Professor]

I am popping into this thread again without reading the whole of it. I had DID. On July 8 God rescued me from a demon (I didn't even know I had one, but I had a spiritual battle with a demon that night and broke free). Two nights later I found myself crying out to God out of nowhere and He saved me. I was immediately transformed. I used to be on tons of medication. Now I am totally clean. I still struggle with this idea that Christians can have demons.

Missing memories coupled with childhood trauma is typical of DID. I lived 49 years and had no clue I had DID. Alters do a great job of hiding. I suggest you prayerfully seek out a deliverance ministry. Trust me, it can be very rewarding and exciting to see how God brings the pieces of our lives back together.

Symptoms of DID include:

1) Missing memories
2) Childhood trauma(s)
3) Sexual abuse
4) Suicidal thoughts and or attempts at suicide
5) Depression
6) Sudden and explosive temper that seems to come out of no where.
7) Interest in the occult, astrology, UFOs, New Age, etc.
8) Seeing a spirit, ghost or shadow person.
9) History of self harm (cutting, pulling hair out, bitting oneself, etc)
10) Panic attacks and/or phobias


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUaLXDIyfew

 

[Therapon]

i do not understand what these alters are.. help..

Miltiples can have many personalities. They are called alters. To learn about them in detail, suggest you read this book.

http://ellisskolfield.com/pdf/Shining-Man.pdf

 

[zone]

That's not the people in general, but the Pharisees. Every indication is that the people loved Him, particularly publicans and sinners like me. Jesus didn't like the lawyers so much. <smile>

Isaiah 53:3
He was despised and rejected--a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way. He was despised, and we did not care.



John 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

...

He came unto his own - His own "land" or "country." It was called his land because it was the place of his birth, and also because it was the chosen land where God delighted to dwell and to manifest his favor. See Isaiah 5:1-7. Over that land the laws of God had been extended, and that land had been regarded as especially his, Psalm 147:19-20.

His own - His own "people." There is a distinction here in the original words which is not preserved in the translation. It may be thus expressed: "He came to his own land, and his own people received him not." They were his people, because God had chosen them to be his above all other nations; had given to them his laws; and had signally protected and favored them, Deuteronomy 7:6; Deuteronomy 14:2.

Received him not - Did not acknowledge him to be the Messiah. They rejected him and put him to death, agreeably to the prophecy, Isaiah 53:3-4. From this we learn,

1. That it is reasonable to expect that those who have been especially favored should welcome the message of God. God had a right to expect, after all that had been done for the Jews, that they would receive the message of eternal life. So he has a right to expect that we should embrace him and be saved.

2. Yet, it is not the abundance of mercies that incline men to seek God. The Jews had been signally favored, but they rejected him. So, many in Christian lands live and die rejecting the Lord Jesus.

3. People are alike in every age. All would reject the Saviour if left to themselves. All people are by nature wicked. There is no more certain and universal proof of this than the universal rejection of the Lord Jesus.
Barnes

...

He came unto his own - Τα ιδια - to those of his own family, city, country: - and his own people, οἱ ιδιοι - his own citizens, brethren, subjects.

The Septuagint, Josephus, and Arrian, use these words, τα ιδιοι and οἱ ιδιοι, in the different senses given them above.

Received him not - Would not acknowledge him as the Messiah, nor believe in him for salvation.

To receive Christ is to acknowledge him as the promised Messiah; to believe in him as the victim that bears away the sin of the world; to obey his Gospel, and to become a partaker of his holiness, without which no man, on the Gospel plan, can ever see God.
Clarke

...

11. his own-"His own" (property or possession), for the word is in the neuter gender. It means His own land, city, temple, Messianic rights and possessions.

and his own-"His own (people)"; for now the word is masculine. It means the Jews, as the "peculiar people." Both they and their land, with all that this included, were "His own," not so much as part of "the world which was made by Him," but as "THE HEIR" of the inheritance (Lu 20:14; see also on Mt 22:1).

received him not-nationally, as God's chosen witnesses.
JFBBC

...

1:11 He came unto his own, etc. This verse states (1) that he came, personally, to his own. He took upon himself a fleshly form and came to the race to which he was united by fleshly ties; (2) his own received him not.

His own is the Jewish nation, who received him not.
PNT

...

He came (ἦλθεν)

The narrative now passes from the general to the special action of the Word as the Light. The verb came, in the aorist tense, denotes a definite act - the Incarnation. In John 1:10 the Word is described as in the world invisibly. Now He appears.

Unto His own (εἰς τὰ ἴδια)

Literally, his own things: see on Acts 1:7. The Rev. follows the A.V. Wyc., into his own things. Render his own home, and compare John 16:32; John 19:27; Acts 21:6. The reference is to the land of Israel, which is recognized as God's own in a peculiar sense. See Jeremiah 2:7; Hosea 9:3; Zechariah 2:12; Deuteronomy 7:6. Not a repetition of John 1:10. There is a progress in the narrative. He was in the world at large: then he came unto His own home.

His own (οἱ ἴδια)

The masculine gender, as the preceding was neuter. That signified His own home or possessions, this His own people. Rev., they that were His own.

Received (παρέλαβον)

Most commonly in the New Testament of taking one along with another. See on Matthew 4:5; see on Matthew 17:1; see on Acts 16:33. But also of accepting or acknowledging one to be what he professes to be, and of receiving something transmitted, as 1 Corinthians 11:23; Galatians 1:12, etc. Westcott thinks this latter sense is implied here; Christ having been offered by the teachers of Israel through John. Alford adopts the former sense; "expressing the personal assumption to one's self as a friend or companion." De Wette explains to receive into the house. Godet strains a point by explaining as welcomed. De Wette's explanation seems to agree best with his own home. Here again compare the nice choice of verbs: apprehended (κατέλαβεν) the Light as a principle, and received (παρέλαβον) the Light as a person and the Master of the house.
Vincent

...

3. He came to his own (v. 11); not only to the world, which was his own, but to the people of Israel, that were peculiarly his own above all people; of them he came, among them he lived, and to them he was first sent. The Jews were at this time a mean despicable people; the crown was fallen from their head; yet, in remembrance of the ancient covenant, bad as they were, and poor as they were, Christ was not ashamed to look upon them as his own. Ta idia-his own things; not tous idious-his own persons, as true believers are called, ch. 13:1. The Jews were his, as a man's house, and lands, and goods are his, which he uses and possesses; but believers are his as a man's wife and children are his own, which he loves and enjoys. He came to his own, to seek and save them, because they were his own. He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, for it was he whose own the sheep were. Now observe,

(1.) That the generality rejected him: His own received him not. He had reason to expect that those who were his own should have bidden him welcome, considering how great the obligations were which they lay under to him, and how fair the opportunities were which they had of coming to the knowledge of him. They had the oracles of God, which told them beforehand when and where to expect him, and of what tribe and family he should arise. He came among them himself, introduced with signs and wonders, and himself the greatest; and therefore it is not said of them, as it was of the world (v. 10), that they knew him not; but his own, though they could not but know him, yet received him not; did not receive his doctrine, did not welcome him as the Messiah, but fortified themselves against him. The chief priests, that were in a particular manner his own (for the Levites were God's tribe), were ring-leaders in this contempt put upon him. Now this was very unjust, because they were his own, and therefore he might command their respect; and it was very unkind and ungrateful, because he came to them, to seek and save them, and so to court their respect. Note, Many who in profession are Christ's own, yet do not receive him, because they will not part with their sins, nor have him to reign over them.

(2.) That yet there was a remnant who owned him, and were faithful to him. Though his own received him not, yet there were those that received him (v. 12): But as many as received him. Though Israel were not gathered, yet Christ was glorious. Though the body of that nation persisted and perished in unbelief, yet there were many of them that were wrought upon to submit to Christ, and many more that were not of that fold.
Matthew Henry

 

[PeteWaldo]

Didn't notice this because you quoted somebody else, and then followed with a quote from me in the same post.

Yet rather than recognize the treasure of an elder brother steeped in a lifetime of scripture in the genuine ecclesia, brother Skolfield has been met with scorn, false accusation, false characterization, and false witness by doctrinally blinded babes in Christ that exhibit milk still dribbling down their chins - if that.

The more 'elder' of us are prone - if we are not careful - to become "set in our ways" - and, no longer consider where we may possibly be wrong - because, "we have a lock on it"...

I was addressing the false accusation, false characterization and outright lies, rather than respect due of an elder brother.

The younger generations maintain error out of IGNORANCE. The older generations maintain error out of PRIDE.

No question many do. Though it would be easy for some folks to be prone to make false assumptions about someone, simply because they challenged one's pop-eschatology.

I have read many of Therapon's posts - as well as one of his 'PDF' books from his website. I can agree with a lot of what he has said that others who have posted in his threads cannot. There are other things he has stated with which I cannot agree at all. I do not discount everything he says because of the stuff I cannot agree with. Why? Because I try my best to "compare truth to truth" - what is said is more important than who said it.

"I believe that it is true or I believe that it is not - without regard to who said it."

It is his attitude that I don't like. This is the way he comes across to me:

Therapon's Attitude ( <<< click )

If he truly wanted to use his "vast treasure of scriptural knowledge" to help a brother "sharpen iron" -- would he not have tried to answer the questions in my threads - making use of [only] relevant scripture and/or other information to DIRECTLY address the particular issue that my question pertained to? -- INSTEAD of [effectively] telling me that my question was not worth his time and "walking all over" my ['serious-topic'] thread with "anything and everything" except discussion of my topic?

Therapon:

The stuff in your material that I most disagree with is the stuff that seems to be "invented" just to fill the gaps between the more 'solid' stuff that actually makes some sense.

I'm unfamiliar with the specifics to which you refer but they really don't matter, as you may not be fully appreciating the futility of trying to understand and entire approach to bible prophecy, by proof-texting a verse here or there.
There are only 3 approaches to eschatology (not including "Idealism"). Historicism, partial preterism and futurism.
The entire traditional approach of historicism cannot be understood, by trying to wring it through the filter of the partial preterism or futurism that you presently hold.
You would have to set aside your current entire approach to prophecy, before beginning to try to understand the traditional approach of historicism - through which all Jews and Christians approach Old Testament prophecy, and the church, up until a couple hundred years ago approached New Testament prophecy - and then judge the approach entirely on its own merit. My experience has been that it is evermore vindicated by scripture, history, fulfilled prophecy and present day reality.

Can you begin to see what I am suggesting, if only through what we witness between futurists and preterists in this forum? Each must believe the other to be virtually 100% in error regarding Revelation, because a 1900 year gap separates the two views. That is, 1900 years of Christian era history, that is necessarily excluded from even consideration in fulfilled prophecy, by futurism and preterism. 1900 years of Christian era history that includes 1400 years of THE false prophet Muhammad's cult and its conquest of nearly the whole known world once, rising again today, whose followers believe that to even pray in Jesus' name constitutes the single most egregious - and only unforgivable sin - as opposed to child rape or cold-blooded mass murder, which may be forgiven. That same 1/4 of mankind are commanded to conquer all kingdoms, and subjugate all people, to DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ, DENYING the Son of God, and REJECTING His shed blood as ARTICLES OF FAITH in THE false prophet Muhammad alone.
Here's more on this ENTIRE traditional historicist APPROACH to bible prophecy:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...onal-approach-historicism-bible-prophecy.html

All:

This is something that humans do "all too naturally" - BECAUSE we do not like to leave anything "unexplained"- because, 'gaps' create [a false] "uncertainty" in our minds.

However, when it comes to understanding and interpreting scripture - this is THE WORST thing we can possibly do. And, it ALONE has caused more doctrinal error than probably anything known to man.

Why?

Because, people tend to fill the "unknown" spaces with "anything that makes some sense" (true or not) -- and, it "breaks" the doctrine.

It is FAR better to LEAVE the "unexplained" ALONE. We MUST allow it - in our minds - to remain an EMPTY space -- to be filled LATER when we actually have something WORTHY to fill it with.

In order to properly interpret scripture -- you MUST be able to do this -- or you WILL most certainly fall into error...

( Because, Satan is always ready to hand you something 'false' to "fill the gaps" with... )

And if one is entirely unfamiliar with one of the 3 entire approaches to prophecy, it would be advisable to study within the traditional historicist approach, and then judge the whole approach entirely on its own merit, as compared to futurism or preterism. Doesn't that make sense?

 

[GRA]

Didn't notice this because you quoted somebody else, and then followed with a quote from me in the same post.

I was not addressing you. I was addressing everyone - except for the small part between 'Therapon:' and 'All:'.

I was just using your words "an elder brother" to make an implied comparative reference to "older brother".

Remember: A quote is a quote is a quote... ( <<< Click )

I'm unfamiliar with the specifics to which you refer but they really don't matter, as you may not be fully appreciating the futility of trying to understand and entire approach to bible prophecy, by proof-texting a verse here or there.
There are only 3 approaches to eschatology (not including "Idealism"). Historicism, partial preterism and futurism.
The entire traditional approach of historicism cannot be understood, by trying to wring it through the filter of the partial preterism or futurism that you presently hold.

You assume much and judge quickly. Why judge so harshly you-know-not-what...?

I can see that you are very unobservant. I ascribe to neither partial preterism nor futurism.

You would have to set aside your current entire approach to prophecy, before beginning to try to understand the traditional approach of historicism - through which all Jews and Christians approach Old Testament prophecy, and the church, up until a couple hundred years ago approached New Testament prophecy - and then judge the approach entirely on its own merit. My experience has been that it is evermore vindicated by scripture, history, fulfilled prophecy and present day reality.

Sounds VERY familiar ---- VERY similar to something I have been saying around here for a long time now...

Can you begin to see what I am suggesting, if only through what we witness between futurists and preterists in this forum? Each must believe the other to be virtually 100% in error regarding Revelation, because a 1900 year gap separates the two views. That is, 1900 years of Christian era history, that is necessarily excluded from even consideration in fulfilled prophecy, by futurism and preterism. 1900 years of Christian era history that includes 1400 years of THE false prophet Muhammad's cult and its conquest of nearly the whole known world once, rising again today, whose followers believe that to even pray in Jesus' name constitutes the single most egregious - and only unforgivable sin - as opposed to child rape or cold-blooded mass murder, which may be forgiven. That same 1/4 of mankind are commanded to conquer all kingdoms, and subjugate all people, to DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ, DENYING the Son of God, and REJECTING His shed blood as ARTICLES OF FAITH in THE false prophet Muhammad alone.
Here's more on this ENTIRE traditional historicist APPROACH to bible prophecy:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...onal-approach-historicism-bible-prophecy.html

And if one is entirely unfamiliar with one of the 3 entire approaches to prophecy, it would be advisable to study within the traditional historicist approach, and then judge the whole approach entirely on its own merit, as compared to futurism or preterism. Doesn't that make sense?

Can you begin to see what I am suggesting?

"You are preaching to the choir, here..."

I would be the FIRST person on this site to tell you that the past ~2000 years are significant in "the big [prophetic] picture"...

 

[PeteWaldo]

Originally Posted by PeteWaldo

I'm unfamiliar with the specifics to which you refer but they really don't matter, as you may not be fully appreciating the futility of trying to understand and entire approach to bible prophecy, by proof-texting a verse here or there.
There are only 3 approaches to eschatology (not including "Idealism"). Historicism, partial preterism and futurism.
The entire traditional approach of historicism cannot be understood, by trying to wring it through the filter of the partial preterism or futurism that you presently hold.

You assume much and judge quickly.

Sorry, and please excuse me. Perhaps force of habit, since as you likely already know, a near unanimity of the church is either partial preterist or futurist.

Why judge so harshly you-know-not-what...?

I can see that you are very unobservant. I ascribe to neither partial preterism nor futurism.

Since you only described what you are not, I'll presume historicist until you give me a heads up as to which approach to New Testament bible prophecy you do use.

Sounds VERY familiar ---- VERY similar to something I have been saying around here for a long time now...


Can you begin to see what I am suggesting?

"You are preaching to the choir, here..."

I would be the FIRST person on this site to tell you that the past ~2000 years are significant in "the big [prophetic] picture"...

So since you are not a partial preterist, and you are not a futurist, and since you believe the Christian era is of significance in bible prophecy that pretty much leaves out "Idealism".
So which portions of the history of the Christian era are the most significant in your approach to eschatology?

 

[PeteWaldo]

I have read many of Therapon's posts - as well as one of his 'PDF' books from his website. I can agree with a lot of what he has said that others who have posted in his threads cannot. There are other things he has stated with which I cannot agree at all. I do not discount everything he says because of the stuff I cannot agree with. Why? Because I try my best to "compare truth to truth" - what is said is more important than who said it.

Is there something in particular that you most disagree with bro?

 

[Therapon]

Is there something in particular that you most disagree with bro?

Yeah, I'd be interested to know myself.

 

[Stephen63]

I believe there is a great misunderstanding between those on both sides of the coin with this issue. Let me say first and foremost, I do not believe a saved person can be demon possessed. I do believe a Christian can be oppressed by the devil. I notice in this forum that those who say they are saved when this happened to them experienced a great deliverance after the spirit left. There can only be one of two alternatives. Either the person was not saved at the time and thought they were because they joined the church, or the person could have been saved, got drawn away by their own lusts and became backslidden. Those that believe in OSAS will have trouble with this. I believed I was saved at age 9 when the pastor came to my house to ask me if I understood the plan of salvation and wanted to be saved. Of course I said yes, because that's what I wanted. I wanted to be a part of the church. But the Holy Spirit did not draw me to that decision, therefore it was false. I simply tried to do it on my own.
When it comes to spiritual oppression, there is little known about it. Christians have been oppressed by the enemy. It's part of our spiritual warfare. When we are depressed, stressed out, worried over nothing, much of this is spiritual oppression. How far Satan can go with this is unknown...... except we know that a Christian cannot be possessed, period. He who the Son sets free is free indeed! Anyone who has multiple personalities and claim to be a Christian is not saved. More likely than not they are demon possessed. Oppression does not have full control..... never does. Possession has full control..... always does when the demon(s) decide to.
IMHO I think the issue has a lot to do with the lack of spiritual discernment. Those that do not believe in being Spirit led don't even have a clue about what this means. To put it in simple terms, the Holy Spirit shows us what we cannot normally see and understand. Unless God shows us through his Spirit, we cannot truly know. Anything else is a carnal guess at best. This is why there are so many opinions concerning this.

 

[Therapon]

I believe there is a great misunderstanding between those on both sides of the coin with this issue. Let me say first and foremost, I do not believe a saved person can be demon possessed. I do believe a Christian can be oppressed by the devil. I notice in this forum that those who say they are saved when this happened to them experienced a great deliverance after the spirit left. There can only be one of two alternatives. Either the person was not saved at the time and thought they were because they joined the church, or the person could have been saved, got drawn away by their own lusts and became backslidden. Those that believe in OSAS will have trouble with this. I believed I was saved at age 9 when the pastor came to my house to ask me if I understood the plan of salvation and wanted to be saved. Of course I said yes, because that's what I wanted. I wanted to be a part of the church. But the Holy Spirit did not draw me to that decision, therefore it was false. I simply tried to do it on my own.
When it comes to spiritual oppression, there is little known about it. Christians have been oppressed by the enemy. It's part of our spiritual warfare. When we are depressed, stressed out, worried over nothing, much of this is spiritual oppression. How far Satan can go with this is unknown...... except we know that a Christian cannot be possessed, period. He who the Son sets free is free indeed! Anyone who has multiple personalities and claim to be a Christian is not saved. More likely than not they are demon possessed. Oppression does not have full control..... never does. Possession has full control..... always does when the demon(s) decide to.
IMHO I think the issue has a lot to do with the lack of spiritual discernment. Those that do not believe in being Spirit led don't even have a clue about what this means. To put it in simple terms, the Holy Spirit shows us what we cannot normally see and understand. Unless God shows us through his Spirit, we cannot truly know. Anything else is a carnal guess at best. This is why there are so many opinions concerning this.

Rather bold to claim that those who don't see Scripture exactly the same way you do, "lack spiritual discernment," don't you think? I worked with approximately 100 multiples, many of whom gladly declared Jesus as their Savior, who from all appearances loved the Lord Jesus fervently, whose Christian walk supported what they said. Those same multiples also had alters whose demons had to be driven out. That may not be your reality, but it was a reality with which I as a minister of the gospel had to deal.

 

[Stephen63]

You can go to dozens of churches and take a poll of who is saved, and usually 95-100% will gladly say they are saved. Jesus said, "straight is the gate and narrow the way that leads to righteousness, and few there be that find it". There will be those that claim they have done many wonderful works, and Jesus will say, "I never knew you" I would've said the same thing when I was nine.

 

[Abiding]

did i just read a Pentecostal mention spiritual discernment?

 

[Stephen63]

Well, at least you got Pentecostal right. There are a few Internet theologians on here that believe I'm a charismatic

 

[Stephen63]

There are many Pentecostals out there that want every gift but discernment........ just saying

 

[danschance]

I do not believe a saved person can be demon possessed. I do believe a Christian can be oppressed by the devil.

What is the difference between oppressed and possessed?

Now if a Christian can not have a demon, then would you say that if a demon possesed person truly accepted Jesus the demon would have to flee?

I was unsaved and knew I had a demonic problem. I became a christian and still had a demonic problem. I had to go to a deliverance ministry for help and I was helped a great deal. God has been faithful.

I have never once ever read in any deliverance book or heard from anyone familiar with deliverance claim a Christian can not be demon possessed. None of them agree with your above assessment of the situation. Yet many a Christian will dogmatically agree with you. I on the other hand, know better. I have experienced it first hand and know a Christian can be demon possessed.

 

[Therapon]

What is the difference between oppressed and possessed?

Now if a Christian can not have a demon, then would you say that if a demon possesed person truly accepted Jesus the demon would have to flee?

I was unsaved and knew I had a demonic problem. I became a christian and still had a demonic problem. I had to go to a deliverance ministry for help and I was helped a great deal. God has been faithful.

I have never once ever read in any deliverance book or heard from anyone familiar with deliverance claim a Christian can not be demon possessed. None of them agree with your above assessment of the situation. Yet many a Christian will dogmatically agree with you. I on the other hand, know better. I have experienced it first hand and know a Christian can be demon possessed.

Nobody is going to believe you, brother, it goes against their doctrine. Why do you think I am pretty much off this forum? The doctrinal arrogance here is mind-boggling.

 

[zone]

What is the difference between oppressed and possessed?

Now if a Christian can not have a demon, then would you say that if a demon possesed person truly accepted Jesus the demon would have to flee?

I was unsaved and knew I had a demonic problem. I became a christian and still had a demonic problem. I had to go to a deliverance ministry for help and I was helped a great deal. God has been faithful.

I have never once ever read in any deliverance book or heard from anyone familiar with deliverance claim a Christian can not be demon possessed. None of them agree with your above assessment of the situation. Yet many a Christian will dogmatically agree with you. I on the other hand, know better. I have experienced it first hand and know a Christian can be demon possessed.

danschance...

"deliverance ministries" are in the seeing-and-chasing-devils-everywhere business.

they think everything is demon possession.

so if you suffered a hangnail and went to some of them, they'd say it was the demon cuticle or summink.

i recommend reading this and see if it sounds familiar:

How Deliverance Ministries Lead People to Bondage

A Warning Against the Warfare Worldview

by Bob DeWaay

Critical Issues Commentary: How Deliverance Ministries Lead People to Bondage < click

or here for some easy-listening audios

Critical Issues Commentary: False Spiritual Warfare Teachings Radio Broadcasts < click

 

[1still_waters]

Rather bold to claim that those who don't see Scripture exactly the same way you do, "lack spiritual discernment," don't you think? I worked with approximately 100 multiples, many of whom gladly declared Jesus as their Savior, who from all appearances loved the Lord Jesus fervently, whose Christian walk supported what they said. Those same multiples also had alters whose demons had to be driven out. That may not be your reality, but it was a reality with which I as a minister of the gospel had to deal.

Can you qualify these claims with.."in a chat room" or "in the Internet" or "not in person"?

The Internet is the playground for alotta folks to play games.
Basing your cred on interaction with Internet people, in relation to "multiples" and "deliverance", well it's highly suspect.

You talk as if you sat down in person with these peeps.
From my understanding all of this was done online.
Am I incorrect?