Not By Works

Ok, now I knew that Hebrews was to believing Jews and I can make sense of this, but never heard this about James written to the Jews. That's a brighter light....so will reread then with this in mind. Plus, word studies. They have never failed me.

Am lobbing the question back to you Ralph.

Where Magenta?

You said you didn't understand James until you studied it.

Are you only able to be nice to people you agree with? Even 'sinners' do that.

31“Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. Luke 6:31-32

I have to disagree here, If they are coming back in this way, when the owners of this site have banned them,. They are in sin, I would not want to enable their sin, They should have to wait until their ban expires like everyone else has. There are reasons they got banned. Both were pretty severe reasons. Sin has consequences, we should not try to remove the consequences.

The people you are referring to are false teachers and should not be trying to convert Christians to their false teaching in the Church or on an international Christian website. They are deceivers and impostors, Romans16:17, and their lies are sugar coated with sweet words that are taken from the bible but are not rooted and grounded in the truth. When you confront their lies all you get is more sugar coated lies, deceptions. PJ had many anger issues but finally his true colors came through.

False teachers should be confronted because knowingly or not; they lead people who are unaware onto the wrong path. If you say well, they seemed so loving, look out.

True and False Prophets: Matthew7:15
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

Paul and the False Apostles: 2 Corinthians11:12-15
12) And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
13) For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
14) And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15) It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

"I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. "Keep away from them" Romans16

Where Magenta?

Truly feeling sad at this post.

You REALLY think Jesus was saying we need to obey the Law MORE strenuously than the Pharisees did?

And that's how we're going to be saved?

Smack dab in the middle of the Chapter Jesus gives us the answer.

HE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW!

Praise His Holy Name!

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"][/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]You cannot be saved by works
(Ephesians 2:8-9)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]You cannot show that you are savedwithout works (James 2:14,18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]How can a person be saved?


By faith alone (Rom. 3:28)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]How can a person show that he issaved? How can he “show his faith”?

Only by works (James 2:18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith without works saves
(Romans 3:28)
This is a living faith (saving faith)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]Faith without works does not save
(James 2:14)
This is a dead faith (James 2:17,20,26)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith alone saves[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The faith that saves is not alone[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]A person is not saved by works
(“works” are rejected by Paul as themeans of salvation: it is wrong to say that aperson must do good works in order to besaved)

These are meritorious works, that is,works done to try to merit or earnsalvation[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]A saved person will perform good works
(“works” are understood by James to bethe result of salvation: a person doesgood works because he is saved)


These are faith works, that is, works thatspring from a faith that is real and living.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul agreed with James

He taught that good works mustaccompany saving faith (Eph. 2:10; Tit.3:8; Gal. 5:6; Phil. 2:11-12).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James agreed with Paul

He taught that a person inherits thekingdom only by faith (James 2:5) andthat Abraham was justified by faith (2:23)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul used the example of Abraham whenhe first believed in God (Rom. 4:3 andcompare Genesis 15:6).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James used the example of Abrahamwhen his faith was tested by God, about40 years later (James 2:21 and compareGenesis 22)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]The error Paul corrected:
Salvation is by the works of the law (theerror of legalism)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The error that James corrected:
Works are unnecessary after a person issaved (the error of antinomianism)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul wrote about how a guilty sinner maybe justified before God.[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James wrote about how a believer canshow that his faith is genuine(justification or vindication before men)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 100%, colspan: 2"]At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 the key issue was that salvation is by gracethrough faith and not by the works of the law. See the error in Acts 15:1 and Peter’sconclusion in Acts 15:9,11. James, who took a lead role in this discussion never voicedany disagreement with Peter or Paul over this crucial matter.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul’s perspective: He was viewing theguilty sinner who needed to be right withGod. (The sinner is in view)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James’ perspective: He was viewing thebeliever (or professing believer) whoneeded to demonstrate that his faith wasreal. (The believer is in view)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Paul and James did not contradict each other; but rather they complemented each other. What both menwrote was inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16) and true. Paul’s focus was on the unsaved man and how he mightget right with God. James’ focus was on the saved person and how he might show his faith and demonstratethe reality of his faith. www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/JamesPau.htm

Yes. But which isn't a stretch since they didn't keep it (Jesus is showing them this in Matthew 5), and we have the Holy Spirit. They did not.



If you mean to get saved. No.

How did you jump to the conclusion that having to keep the law is how we get saved? Haven't you ever been taught that faith upholds the law, not tramples it underfoot? You can argue the details, but the fundamental fact remains that faith upholds the law, not destroys it-Romans 3:31. I know, I know, the church is not taught this even though the Bible plainly says it.


If you think that means you don't have to uphold the law then you are quite deceived. You probably can't see that because you probably do not know what's in the law. Law to the church usually equates to Sabbaths and Holy Days and nothing else.

'Justified' has more than one meaning. One means to be made righteous. Another is to be shown to be righteous. Paul is talking about the former, while James is talking about the latter. In a genuine salvation experience you have both 'justifications'. You can't have one without the other or else you show that you are not born again.

Paul also withstood Peter face to face, and Paul and Mark where also at odds at one time too.

You said you didn't understand James until you studied it.

Well, truthfully I see a contradiction. And it's a fact that Paul and James had disagreements.

But, there are two James. James the just, and the brother of Jesus. So which wrote the book? Which did Paul disagree with?

You won't discern the answer by studying the passage. You have to know ahead of time that 'justified' has two distinct meanings. We don't know this because it's not a word that we use in everyday communication.

Amen Magenta! Paul and James do not contradict each other.

They are just describing true faith from two different perspectives:

Man is saved by grace through faith (apart from the merit of works - Ephesians 2:8,9).

Yet true faith (does not remain apart from the presence of works - James 2:14-24).

I disagree, If james and paul are in opposition, one of them has to go. Or the Bible is not to be trusted. Because one of. Them are wrong.

As for which james, When I wrote what you said earlier about james and paul fighting, paul fought with peter. Should we be Leary of peter also? Just saying,

Ok, now I knew that Hebrews was to believing Jews and I can make sense of this, but never heard this about James written to the Jews. That's a brighter light....so will reread then with this in mind. Plus, word studies. They have never failed me.

Abraham was justified before he did one work. Paul makes this clear in Romans 4. And it is seen in Genesis.