Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot
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The full context is with several section of scripture combined.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Grace is a free gift from God.
Faith creates works.
No works no faith.
As James states it faith without works is dead.
Works doesn't save but no works no faith.
There are those who think they need to earn their way to salvation and at judgement time Jesus will say begone I never knew you.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Grace is a free gift from God.
Faith creates works.
No works no faith.
As James states it faith without works is dead.
Works doesn't save but no works no faith.
There are those who think they need to earn their way to salvation and at judgement time Jesus will say begone I never knew you.
The four gospels were not until the new testament. How did all of the old testament saints get saved eternally without the gospel? Answer; Just like any of the elect that Christ died for, by being born again in regeneration and receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Not by their obedience of the gospel. There is a deliverance (salvation- not eternally) received in obedience to the gospel.
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Look at Genesis 3:15 and Genesis 15:6. This is the gospel. Then in John 5:39 Jesus said...
39-40 “You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me the life you say you want.(John 5)
Now, the OT scriptures had the gospel in them my friend. The gospel is not some sort of NT construct, but has ever been since Genesis.
39-40 “You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me the life you say you want.(John 5)
Now, the OT scriptures had the gospel in them my friend. The gospel is not some sort of NT construct, but has ever been since Genesis.
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10-11 But because God was so gracious, so very generous, here I am. And I’m not about to let his grace go to waste. Haven’t I worked hard trying to do more than any of the others? Even then, my work didn’t amount to all that much. It was God giving me the work to do, God giving me the energy to do it. So whether you heard it from me or from those others, it’s all the same: We spoke God’s truth and you entrusted your lives.(1 Cor. 15)
Here Paul is speaking about people believing the gospel. He labored harder than most of them, yet it was God working through him to proclaim it. Then the Hardshells come along with some new fangled idea of a twofold salvation and twofold faith that is not found anywhere in the bible. They have to twist it to fit their ideologies.
There is only one salvation, not two, my friend. There is no time salvation but one eternal salvation.
Here Paul is speaking about people believing the gospel. He labored harder than most of them, yet it was God working through him to proclaim it. Then the Hardshells come along with some new fangled idea of a twofold salvation and twofold faith that is not found anywhere in the bible. They have to twist it to fit their ideologies.
There is only one salvation, not two, my friend. There is no time salvation but one eternal salvation.
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God's religion according to his faith that works in us alone will because it alone can.. He will not forget the good works we worked with him offering the fruit toward his name.
In order to work something out you must have it to work with first. As always he must do the first works. the reveling of our first love. hearing God. when we fall we are to do the first works believe God as he gives us the faith to make it possible.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Philipian2:12-13
If Christ does not work by his faith or reasoning process to offer you His gospel. Then where would you get the faith to believe him?
I would offer if we would search out the spiritual meaning in the parable below (James 1:27) It would be encouragmente to help each other as those previously not having a heavenly father and were widowed, not married to Christ, (fatherless and widows ) as a special love to comfort one another with.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
You can never know what kind of surprise he has in store for us.
Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Their mutual work the father and Son saved as many as the father gave to the Son to be His eternal bride.
In order to work something out you must have it to work with first. As always he must do the first works. the reveling of our first love. hearing God. when we fall we are to do the first works believe God as he gives us the faith to make it possible.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Philipian2:12-13
If Christ does not work by his faith or reasoning process to offer you His gospel. Then where would you get the faith to believe him?
I would offer if we would search out the spiritual meaning in the parable below (James 1:27) It would be encouragmente to help each other as those previously not having a heavenly father and were widowed, not married to Christ, (fatherless and widows ) as a special love to comfort one another with.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
You can never know what kind of surprise he has in store for us.
Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Their mutual work the father and Son saved as many as the father gave to the Son to be His eternal bride.
E
I see no mention as to how the old testament saints had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and had never heard the gospel. You will never be able to harmonize the King James version of the scriptures with your lack of knowledge until you rightly divide the salvation scriptures. Most of them have reference to a deliverance here on earth and not on eternal deliverance. Acts 2:40 - An with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, SAVE yourselves from this untoward generation. Are you going to tell me that the word "save" has reference to eternal life? If so, then it would be eternal salvation (deliverance) by the works of man.
And I was quite clear in my post #585 when I responded ForestGreenCook's statement that "before a person can hear and believe the spiritual gospel they would have to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is given at regeneration".
I then asked if a person must be born again before he/she can hear the gospel.
You then jumped into the discussion with your statement "God works this in the heart of the elect when they hear the Gospel."
Which prompted my questions to you:
Can everyone "hear the Gospel"?
In other words, does a person have to be "elect" to be able to "hear the Gospel"?
Questions you refuse to answer until I discuss some side issue you brought up.
I asked you a question. You do not want to answer until I go down some rabbit trail with you. Not interested in further discussion with you concerning this issue. Thank you.
I then asked if a person must be born again before he/she can hear the gospel.
You then jumped into the discussion with your statement "God works this in the heart of the elect when they hear the Gospel."
Which prompted my questions to you:
Can everyone "hear the Gospel"?
In other words, does a person have to be "elect" to be able to "hear the Gospel"?
Questions you refuse to answer until I discuss some side issue you brought up.
I asked you a question. You do not want to answer until I go down some rabbit trail with you. Not interested in further discussion with you concerning this issue. Thank you.
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True. At the same time, we are told IN THE NEW TESTAMENT that the Gospel was preached to the Israelites in the wilderness, yet they did not believe.
HEBREWS 3 & 4
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached -- (εὐηγγελισμένοι = having had the Gospel preached) -- as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
We know of at least one incident referred to by Christ which would fit this:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:14,15)
This once again refutes limited atonement. *Whosoever believeth* means anyone and everyone who believes the Gospel, not *whosoever is elect and believes*.
HEBREWS 3 & 4
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached -- (εὐηγγελισμένοι = having had the Gospel preached) -- as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
We know of at least one incident referred to by Christ which would fit this:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:14,15)
This once again refutes limited atonement. *Whosoever believeth* means anyone and everyone who believes the Gospel, not *whosoever is elect and believes*.
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In Post #649 you stated
According to your own statement:
So in Post #649, it appears you are saying Holy Spirit is given in regeneration.
You also state:
It appears you are saying a person is born again before hearing, trusting, believing.
So according to you, a person must be regenerated (born again) before he or she hears, trusts, believes.
That is not what is stated in Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
Heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation
Then believed the word of truth the gospel of your salvation
Then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.
You've got people born again [regenerated] before they can hear the word of truth the gospel of salvation.
Regeneration occurs before hearing, trusting and believing in spiritual things. No Holy Spirit (which is given in regeneration = being born of the Spirit) no spiritual discerning).
According to your own statement:
No Holy Spirit (which is given in regeneration = being born of the spirit)
So in Post #649, it appears you are saying Holy Spirit is given in regeneration.
You also state:
Regeneration occurs before hearing, trusting and believing in spiritual things.
It appears you are saying a person is born again before hearing, trusting, believing.
So according to you, a person must be regenerated (born again) before he or she hears, trusts, believes.
That is not what is stated in Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
Heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation
Then believed the word of truth the gospel of your salvation
Then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.
You've got people born again [regenerated] before they can hear the word of truth the gospel of salvation.
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