Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

It's funny you say I think I am "proving" salvation by works, NO they are EVIDENCE of ones salvation, because if you've met your Creator, you've been changed.

Yes this is what I was getting at the whole time "The saved have the indwelling Holy Spirit, the unsaved do not." This changes us, causes us to want to please him. You just said it, changes us how? There is a change, the old man dies and all is made new. Oh my goodness man this is ALL I've been saying CLEARLY THE WHOLE TIME. Why have you even been arguing with me at all. Your so scared of the word "works" that you rather embrace "I will always sin". No you wont we are in the process of being made like Him, we will not ALWAYS sin anyway. Here on earth, in the flesh we will, but in Jesus we are being sanctified, yes we still sin, I have not 1 time denied it and challenge you to find anywhere I said anything but the opposite, I know we are on a walk with the Lord, all I've said is that we are reborn, made "ALL NEW" NOT THE SAME. Go back and read. All this time, all these comments, and you end up saying the EXACT same thing I started with. You are just anti works. You hear that word and just retreat into "we still sin". Deny this all you want, but the comments are here for everyone to read. I still say if you don't understand the fact that when this change takes place, this is turning from "our way" and we die to our self. The old man dies brother. You can't tell me he doesn't because I testify in front of God and everyone in Jesus name it happen to me. God granted me repentance in a overnight "road to Damascus", kind of way to where His power could not be denied by me for sure, but even by those closest to me that saw the change.

I get get no credit, nor want any, but He changed me and commands me to "go make disciples of ALL nations". Please go back and show me where I EVER even suggested that what I do, by His power (works), saves me. Because you are lying when you accuse me of that. I do not believe that at ALL and never have. Reread our conversation and see who stands on Gods word and who was standing on 1 question, "do you still sin" to which I answered 1,000 times. You just don't read well. I'm starting to get the impression you're just looking for contention where there is none.

All this talking and now you're back peddling and saying exactly what Macabeus and I have been saying the whole time. The fact you're not seeing it, along with all the fleshly arguments you make from a misunderstanding of what being born of the Spirit truly is, I'm starting to feel like you are in no way trying to find common ground among brothers. You are just trying to be "right" and I and forever preach against working for the Lord in Christ. Why? Do So I think I've said my piece clearly, and stand behind it. apparently you do too since now you changed your mind and acknowledge the change of being born again, that results in you willingly working for the Lord. This has been my position this whole time, and you are the only one changing tunes, since you don't even want to try to come together I think I'm dusting my feet off now. This is EXACTLY why I hate talking online through text. Have a good day man, and my Jesus draw us all ever closer every day. Amen.

Christians have the freedom to disobey. That's why Christians still sin. God will chastise His children who wander away, but their salvation is never in question. If salvation is truly a gift, your behavior cannot negate that.

You do that now. Unless you're going to claim you never sin.

I pray you don't, but the sin of suicide is certainly covered in the atonement. The Bible says all sins have been forgiven, not all sins except suicide.

I pray God grants you healing for your depression. But remember, God never promised an easy road in this life - in fact, He said it would be hard. He also said the journey would be worth it and that He would always be with us, and never forsake us. Do you have a pastor you can speak to who can offer counseling in regard to your depression?

Because Adam was the representative of the whole human race. If Adam had not sinned, those blessing would also have flowed to all of us. That's why Jesus had to come in the flesh as the "second Adam" and live a perfect life in our place - and represented all of us on the cross as God poured out the wrath meant for us, upon Him. And now, through Him, all of mankind has the forgiveness of sins offered.

But you see, as you point to the "evidence" of good works, that is defacto proof of salvation in your mind.

Jim, once again, the Old Man is not dead in us. If it were, we would no longer sin. Read Paul's lament about the Old Man (the "flesh") in Romans: "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

Serve, not "served" - present tense.

Have you ever gone a single day without sinning since your conversion? Be honest before the Lord.

Then you contradict yourself in the next sentence:

See above.

Not a bit. I said believers should seek to live a life pleasing to God. My point is - most don't. But a lack of good works doesn't result in a loss of salvation.

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

Jim, your Old Man (the sinful "flesh") is what causes you to sin - period. That's why there is a constant struggle in believers to obey. You still sin, hence, the flesh is not dead.

But it will be - at the resurrection.

And yet you continue to deny that the Old Man is still alive in you. So, you are continuously contradicting yourself. That is why I keep pointing that out.

No, Jim. I absolutely am not.

Jim, if you truly believe that, then put me on ignore and be done with it.

Yet again, our desires change in regard to the indwelling Holy Spirit, but what I have to keep saying over and over is that a believer can resist, through free will, doing good works. You seem to be saying we will do them in violation of free will. If that is so, then at conversion we become robots without a choice.

If i enter into a Church and meet all grumpy people who choose not to accept me and love me and have their own circles, i would ask the Head of the Church.... '' What the hell is wrong with Your house? ''... But if i enter a Church filled with love like Jesus' s, true compassion and concern... I will say thanks to the Head of the Church and would be in awe of His transformation of human kind... I would feel at home. Because I believe if we have one Father, we are a family..

Milee, I believe you love the Lord, just be wary of placing too much emphasis on the behavior of people as proof of acceptance and love. Christians don't always display the love of Christ. Keep your eyes on Jesus alone, and you'll be just fine.

I entered a Church and was looking for God. The One who is Love. A sense of belonging... yet i saw a bunch of youth group members who were Childhood friends, i was just an unwanted outsider.. It was apparent in their behaviour - i wondered how is a Church different from my school then, from a party... Where u dont want to expand your circle. I don't want to point fingers but a Church is supposed to be run by the Head who is Christ... Isn't it. Why would the Head want me to be left out. I try looking for Him.. But in a certain Church His love was apparent... just by the way a man greeted and hugged everybody with love in his eyes at the entrance. If God ain't present inside a Church... If the pastor is the head... I sense deep pain, and anger. Where is the Father? He knows every member individually and loves each one. Without His presence, it is like a boring party and a feeling that i don't belong.

Yes, this is because this was the example Jesus gave us to follow. To love God, and to love each other. It was created all good, but that is also why you're more attracted to that kind, it's closer to truth, as in Jesus.

quote- You keep pointing to performance as proof one is a Christian

False. I said faith is evidence that you are a Christian.

And later, when I have time, I'm going to post all the dozens of answers I gave to your question. It's not my fault your not following the discussion very well.

CONTEXT says so. You take the passage out of context, later, when I have time, I will show you the context that supports my interpretation.

Try post 552 and 557 as well as about a dozen passages that talk about the difference between struggling with sin and sinning defiantly.

Whatever, i am done with people who do nithing but play games

As i said, i was a prodigal son, i think experience trumps what people think spmething says.

You and budman have fun, i am out

I think this is wrong, and dangerous to say our flesh is alive.
Paul makes the point over and over again that we have been crucified with Christ if we are in Him.

Galatians 2:20 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

This whole passage is about the fact that our flesh has been crucified and died with Christ and it is incredibly important in the sense that we MUST RECKON the flesh dead. It is precisely this reckoning that enables us to walk in the Spirit.

Romans 6 New King James Version (NKJV)
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be [a]done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been [b]freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, [c]reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What happens now is that just how the Devil tries to deceive us on a whole host of issues, our dead flesh tries to tell us that it is still alive!


Paul tells us that this struggle will continue between our old dead flesh, and our New born again spirit.

But we should NEVER reckon our dead, sinful nature as alive again.

You are deceiving her, that is not what anyone here was trying to say. What reality do you live in? I don't get it. I think you might just be a troll, because nothing you attack is accurate, and you listen to no one. You try to understand nothing, just divide and dig in. Wow. Here ya go My last word for ya, then I'll go ahead and make you the first and only on my ignore list, by your request of course. Learn to actually try to understand others instead of making up your own version of them. It is literally crazy, and I'm truly praying for you. I've never seen anything like this. You are delusional for real, and unable you comprehend others words, obviously.


Last comment because you are just so far off on everything I believe that I honestly don’t think you’ve listened to 1 thing I’ve said. I can’t lie, I have never talked to someone like you that just strait up makes the law of what terms mean on the fly, and then judges by that standard alone. You literally made the claim that saying works for salvation and works because of salvation were interchangeable. They are not, they are opposite, as far from the same as you can possibly get, they are. Now here you are just proclaiming that you've been saying this the whole time. No you have not.



“But you see, as you point to the "evidence" of good works, that is defacto proof of salvation in your mind.”



Who said this? Strawman, I say works WILL be evident in the saved, it does not follow that therefore “because someone does works that means they are saved”. Again to connect those two and not see the difference shows you have NO CLUE what I believe, at all, or what you’re talking about, at all.



No, saying that being reborn in the Spirit of God leads to change in the person is not WORKS SALVATON!!! You are now saying this like it was you case and what were saying the whole time, not only that but acting as if I am saying someting different. Show me where I did. It’s aggravating. Who are you to say this is what I conclude? Not only that you are DEAD WRONG, Show me where I said anything like this. What you are saying doesn’t even logically follow, I am not even saying what you’re claiming. You are literally making up your own version of what you think I am, ignoring EVERYTHING I say you are preach "We Sin", and will show you. Let me show you. I can show you where you are preaching sin. You



“Christians have the freedom to disobey…”

“You do that now. Unless you're going to claim you never sin.”

“I pray you don't, but the sin of suicide is certainly covered in the atonement. The Bible says all sins have been forgiven, not all sins except suicide.”

“Have you ever gone a single day without sinning since your conversion? Be honest before the Lord.”



“But a lack of good works doesn't result in a loss of salvation.”

Strawman, and dumb, I never suggested this at all.



“Jim, your Old Man (the sinful "flesh") is what causes you to sin - period. That's why there is a constant struggle in believers to obey. You still sin, hence, the flesh is not dead.”

No your wrong about this and do not get to dictate truth, the thing about you is you don’t even try to understand the other side, only speak of us sinning. How can you not see there are better truths to share. How does preaching sin glorify God? I am telling you strait up the message you are speaking kept me in the dark and made me think that living my life enslaved to sin I was a Christian, but you don’t care because you obviously have me ALL figured out right? And so far batting “0” accurately addressing ANY point I have made. You are just WRONG about everything you “rebuke” me on ZERO. There is more to the story than “you get saved and still sin”. That’s a joke and insult to my King. Again now you’re back peddling and starting to speak of a change, but at first, literally, all you were saying is “we sin, we sin, we sin, we sin, we sin,” go look. NOTHING about change until the last few comments. Look.



“But it will be - at the resurrection. “



Nope my oldman, and everyone truly reborn and MADE NEW, has been given the gift of the old man being put to death and being made new in Christ, spirit made alive and reconciled to His Spirit, leading to all truth, ask around, see. Your wrong about He says the old made must be put to death this because you cling to loving sin, not wanting to get rid of it.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;


Ephesians 4:22-24
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Colossians 3:5-9
Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience
and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.

Romans 6:1-4
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

(continued)
“Yet again, our desires change in regard to the indwelling Holy Spirit, but what I have to keep saying over and over is that a believer can resist, through free will, doing good works. You seem to be saying we will do them in violation of free will. If that is so, then at conversion we become robots without a choice.”


No you haven’t, it wasn’t until I asked you over and over on what is a Christian that you even started saying that. Again I do not believe we are robots without a choice, and I hear you say that over and over and don't know why you feel the need to drill it into people. Can you not see "a believer can resist, through free will, doing good works." is NOT glorifying to God. Okay yes a believer can freely choose to "resist God", but will they? Again a very dumb thing to be "fighting for". Is it possible on a technical level? Yes of course, again I don't think we're robots, but I trust in the power of my Lord enough to know He says His will produce fruit, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT, but will produce.



Comment #527

“It's not grace if you have to work for it in any way.

Salvation is a gift. It was always a gift. It will remain a gift.

Without your "help" whatsoever.”



Please show me where ANYONE said it needed our help??????? Who are you talking to????



Comment #596

“ Christians can choose to be carnal.”

“By our free will, we choose to sin - daily. That's not an excuse, just an obvious fact.”

“never want to acknowledge that they still sin regularly”

Who said they didn’t? Who said anything your talking about? God shows me my sin every morning when I go to Him, yet you never even asked.



“The unsaved cannot say no to sin because it's their only nature. We, having now two natures, have the power to say no. But even when we don't, our salvation is never in question. “

Who said it was? Show me. Who were you talking to?



“You seem to be saying that those Christians who produce little or no good works are only giving "lip service" to Christ and are not saved”

No I didn’t, what's this "you seem to be saying", I speak clearly and I never said a word about an amount required, only that works WOULD be there, you refuse to understand this concept that seems to be a spiritual truth you're blind to. Why I wonder? Do you disagree? Did God change you? If so you think that Jesus Christ could transform someone like He supposedly did you, and them not be changed? I'm not talking about what "they technically might be able to do maybe one day on a planet far far away" I'm talking about the power of KNOWING your creator for real". If so I pity your low view of the POWER of our God. If not I have NO CLUE why your preaching "We Sin".

Comment #598



“I made an honest and biblical statement when I said we all will continue to sin until the day we die. “

Yeah we got it, Christians sin, can we talk about righteousness for a minute, or is that wrong?
How can you possibly think the good news is “We Still Sin!”

It’s the exact opposite of what’s written. You hang everything on Romans 8, there’s a LOT more bible and it all works together. right?


I challenge you to go bad through your post here and see what you’re message is. “We Still Sin!” Reigns supreme off your lips. Am I lying? Why is this. Why is protecting the known fact Christians still sin, when no one is arguing that point, so much. Think about it man. Still I hope you have a great evening, and my God draw us all closer to Him and Each other every day.

P.S. ignoring people is dumb, and even though I disagree with your method, the words you speak are true. I'm just trying to relay to you that the way you lay it out allows false converts to stay in darkness. If God would have let me die in that wreak, I be in lost forever, with a cross around my neck thinking I was a Christian when I wasn't. There was never any mention of a real life CHANGE, and I believe that vital info now. Anyway I'm not the ignoring type, so sorry I'll still see you.

And then you go right on and claim works are evidence of faith.

Then you're having Paul contradict himself when he wrote:

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am (present tense) carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (present tense)
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth (present tense) in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth (present tense) no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (present tense)
For the good that I would I do not: (present tense) but the evil which I would not, that I do. (present tense) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth (present tense) in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present (present tense) with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (The Spirit)
But I see another law in my members, warring (present tense) against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in (present tense) my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve (present tense) the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:14-25)

Again, if the flesh (the "Old Man") was dead, we would no longer sin.

Jim, you've pretty much been the one attacking me this whole time - more than once telling me I'm not saved. And just because I don't accept your interpretation of scripture, you call me a troll.

And far from "deceiving" her, I was trying to give her some encouragement. And it is a fact that one should not put their trust in the behavior of other Christians (as many believers have fallen into carnality) and simply place their trust in Christ - in what he said and did, is the polar opposite of being a "deceiver".


Of course. But read it carefully, Jim. When it says it was crucified, it means it's complete control over us is over. So that the body of sin "might" be done away with. So that we "would" (not "will") be slaves to sin no longer.

Have you? Have you stopped sinning? (evil practices).

Do you continue to sin?

Yet again, do you still sin? If you sin every single day, how else would one define "living" in it?

Jim, stop being a hypocrite. You toss out verses regarding not sinning while you yourself remain a sinner. So save your self-righteous proclamations.

We have two natures Jim. Two. And just like Paul said in Romans 7, they war against each other, just like they did in him.

That's why the Bible says in regard to our new nature "Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

And it's also why Paul can say: "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

I am (present tense) - not I "was".