Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
Soo, did you get your question answered? :giggle:
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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Jim, you've pretty much been the one attacking me this whole time - more than once telling me I'm not saved. And just because I don't accept your interpretation of scripture, you call me a troll.

And far from "deceiving" her, I was trying to give her some encouragement. And it is a fact that one should not put their trust in the behavior of other Christians (as many believers have fallen into carnality) and simply place their trust in Christ - in what he said and did, is the polar opposite of being a "deceiver".




Of course. But read it carefully, Jim. When it says it was crucified, it means it's complete control over us is over. So that the body of sin "might" be done away with. So that we "would" (not "will") be slaves to sin no longer.



Have you? Have you stopped sinning? (evil practices).



Do you continue to sin?



Yet again, do you still sin? If you sin every single day, how else would one define "living" in it?

Jim, stop being a hypocrite. You toss out verses regarding not sinning while you yourself remain a sinner. So save your self-righteous proclamations.

We have two natures Jim. Two. And just like Paul said in Romans 7, they war against each other, just like they did in him.

That's why the Bible says in regard to our new nature "Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

And it's also why Paul can say: "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

I am (present tense) - not I "was".
Wow, I just cannot talk to you. Now you are arguing with Paul, and scripture. I can't even find common footing when you refuse to listen to anything I say. You have asked me if I still sin 7 million times. The very first time when I said I yes I do, why was that not sufficient for you? Let's slow down and take these 1 at a time so there's no misunderstanding. I am answering this question for you once and for all, so please do not ask me again, because it's a cop out question you think makes your whole case, as if it could, and when you even suggest I answered it any other way it's your own fabrication. After this post you will KNOW my answer, and there will be no need to throw this stupid question at me ever again, because just typing "do you still sin?, do you still sin?,do you still sin?", over and over is not an argument. It's a mantra. So for the last time.

Do I still sin? "Yes". And I never said otherwise.

Can we now move past this and start to talk about what changed and what we are doing (works) for the Lord? Or is that not okay? Do we just stay here and repeat we still sin, we still sin, we still sin?

I answered one of yours, now you answer one of mine, by what I believe not what you think I believe, please. My official question is. How does the fact I still sin or not effect whether or not I am (willingly, desiring to, this change you now started allowing for empowers me to) working for my Lord by His power?
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Busman. When are you going to go forward from Romans 7 reality to Romans 8 realty?
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's what I'm saying, there is so much more of God's word that all works together for a fuller picture, the idea that Budman thinks he just gets to declare "if the flesh (the "Old Man") was dead, we would no longer sin." as absolute truth, when in fact he is dead wrong on this point, and I don't say that lightly, gives us evidence to point to the fact he is in error. What makes it even more concerning to me personally, is the way he makes his arguments and comes at much of these things the same way the unbelievers do, they are very flesh centered arguments in my opinion, and when asked what a Christian truly is the very last thing mentioned was anything about the Spirit, and even then only after I pressed in harder twice, then still just kind of came off like a catch phrase "we have the Holy Spirit".

Honestly when I am ask what makes a Christian different from the lost, it is that my spirit was made alive and through the sacrifice of Jesus the Christ, reconciled to God. It was reconnected to His Spirit, as it was created to be, giving us in Him wholeness and peace the flesh CAN NOT offer. It's ALL by His grace, and ALL for His glory, praise Jesus name. Amen. Not that I think anyone should answer any certain way at all, but I can't help but find it telling when being indwelt by His Spirit is the last thing dragged out when asked what makes a Christian a Christian, however to be fair what he said at the end about "what being a Christian is", I agree with, again it was just being the last thing he got around to saying when pressed 2 more times to be more specific.

God is so much more than "a Christian still sins", and he just refuses to even understand what I'm speaking against. My only point this whole time is NOT we don't sin, it was more pointing out that's all you are saying, and it doesn't glorify God to talk about our weakness. Heck he still apparently thinks I disagree with that statement even though I have clearly stated multiple times what I believe. This truly leads me to believe he may just like the attention. I'm truly going to try question by question this time so there is no room to "make up" what I believe between comments. Just question for question, answer for answer. We will see. :sneaky:
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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Yes, sorry Milee, about being part of your thread getting hijacked. That was not my intention.
Wow. After two more long post I saw this and felt strait up ashamed. I got caught up to and pulled from the whole point of this thread too. Milee I too am sorry, and will stop right now :censored:(as if it's not WAY too late for this). And anything else I have to say I will message them or start out own thread. Internet rudeness.(n) I'm sorry, and was honestly most interested in what you were saying asking anyway.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Wow, I just cannot talk to you. Now you are arguing with Paul, and scripture. I can't even find common footing when you refuse to listen to anything I say. You have asked me if I still sin 7 million times. The very first time when I said I yes I do, why was that not sufficient for you?
But then you turn right around and say things like: " Your so scared of the word "works" that you rather embrace "I will always sin". No you wont we are in the process of being made like Him, we will not ALWAYS sin anyway."

Let me know when you go through a SINGLE DAY without committing a sin.

Never gonna happen, Jim. Not while you possess a human body.

How does the fact I still sin or not effect whether or not I am (willingly, desiring to, this change you now started allowing for empowers me to) working for my Lord by His power?
Sorry, but to get a little more clarity, I have to answer your question with a question:

Can a Christian resist doing good works?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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"do you still sin?, do you still sin?,do you still sin?", over and over is not an argument. It's a mantra.
So is your "works, works, works, works, works" one.
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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But then you turn right around and say things like: " Your so scared of the word "works" that you rather embrace "I will always sin". No you wont we are in the process of being made like Him, we will not ALWAYS sin anyway."

Let me know when you go through a SINGLE DAY without committing a sin.

Never gonna happen, Jim. Not while you possess a human body.



Sorry, but to get a little more clarity, I have to answer your question with a question:

Can a Christian resist doing good works?
What do you mean? Can one be a Christian with no change? I mean I am a human being and can only do so much, and be so many places, so I gets in a sense that every single work I could have possibly done that day and didn't do I resisted. Am I still a human being in time and space that makes decisions in my head. Yes, so yes to appease you question, yes I can choose what ever I want.

I do have to be honest though, I never think of it how you do. It seems to me the most important thing to you is being free to sin. This whole case you make is fallacious on it's face because whether or not I still sin or not has NOTHING AT ALL to do with works of God being evidenced in me the reborn believer. So WHAT is your point with this. Saying works are evidence of salvation is no different at all than saying that there is a change in us when we are saved and the Holy Spirit indwells us. NONE. But see you want to go into tra-la-la-la land and make it seem I am saying works are "proof", or required to maintain salvation. NOPE not at all. What I am saying is that if you are save by the GREAT Creator of everything, a change WILL be evident. You are arguing than no, you can meet God and be the same, technically. I get it and disagree, and screw technicalities, I strait up TESTIFY and proclaim that if you meet my God, you will be changed.

So see I get what you mean. "IF" in a galaxy far far away, once upon a time, maybe if the stars aligned and one was facing the eastern wind at 3:28 EST can one be saved and chose to do nothing. I can not speak on "maybe hypothetical's" let alone make doctrine on such shifting sand. Did you change as a result of being born again? How about the people you know?

I also want to point out how scared you are to answer a simple question, you " have to answer your question with a question", because your position is weak and you don't want to get tripped up.
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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So is your "works, works, works, works, works" one.
No it's not, if anything "change, change, change", but since you are lying on me right here, please produce one comment from me that makes the claim I am saying works save, or keep salvation. If you don't show me one or admit what you just did was wrong then you are a liar here and now. I posted your "We sin,We sin, We sin" comments, now post the ones where I'm saying works save or your exposed, hopefully to yourself.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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It seems to me the most important thing to you is being free to sin.
No, Jim. I simply point out the hypocritical notion that the flesh is dead. You can tap dance around that all you want (and you do) but the fact remains, if the Old Man is dead, why do you still sin?

Oh, and it seems to me the most important thing for you is pointing to your works as evidence, or proof, or whatever word you want to use, of "a change".

This whole case you make is fallacious on it's face because whether or not I still sin or not has NOTHING AT ALL to do with works of God being evidenced in me the reborn believer.
And again, members of cults, people who are "spiritual", and even atheists can do just as many, if not more, good works than most Christians. It actually proves nothing.

What I am saying is that if you are save by the GREAT Creator of everything, a change WILL be evident.
Like the change in Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or......etc.

I also want to point out how scared you are to answer a simple question, you " have to answer your question with a question", because your position is weak and you don't want to get tripped up.
Nope. Your question was vague. I simply sought clarity.

You really don't like me, do you? Because you certainly love the personal jabs (I'm a "troll", "scared", "unsaved", etc.)
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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No, Jim. I simply point out the hypocritical notion that the flesh is dead. You can tap dance around that all you want (and you do) but the fact remains, if the Old Man is dead, why do you still sin?

Oh, and it seems to me the most important thing for you is pointing to your works as evidence, or proof, or whatever word you want to use, of "a change".
Wrong you are wrong here and misunderstanding, I NEVER said proof, never. Saying my works prove my salvation" is TOTALLY different from "works are evidence of my salvation". You have to get this. Evidence Do NOT "=" proof. 2 different things. Is this clear now?



[/QUOTE="And again, members of cults, people who are "spiritual", and even atheists can do just as many, if not more, good works than most Christians. It actually proves nothing.



Like the change in Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or......etc."[/QUOTE]

And again absolutely NOT at all what I'm saying. I am not saying the JUST BECAUSE someone works the means they are saved. See again here you are saying I believe something I don't. I just don't believe what you're saying I do.



[/QUOTE]Nope. Your question was vague. I simply sought clarity.[/QUOTE]

No it wasn't. What does whether or not the Christian can sin have to do with that Christian doing work for God? What's not clear?

You really don't like me, do you? Because you certainly love the personal jabs (I'm a "troll", "scared", "unsaved", etc.)[/QUOTE]

I can't say I've treated you is how I should have, and for the troll accusation I apologize. And I don't dislike you, I don't even know you. Honestly I believe that if we met face to face and spoke on these same matters it would go much different. This is why I even get into these thing online ever. This thread is case and point.

Just for the record you produced no comments from me making any of these claims. Kind of leaves the liar if you're not going to acknowledge your mistake with the "works,works,works" comment.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Wrong you are wrong here and misunderstanding, I NEVER said proof, never. Saying my works prove my salvation" is TOTALLY different from "works are evidence of my salvation". You have to get this. Evidence Do NOT "=" proof. 2 different things. Is this clear now?

So works are"evidence" of your salvation but not "proof" of it?

Do you ever re-read what you write before you post it?

And again absolutely NOT at all what I'm saying. I am not saying the JUST BECAUSE someone works the means they are saved.
But you just said works are "evidence" of salvation. If so, then Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Moonies, etc., have evidence by the bus-load.

What does whether or not the Christian can sin have to do with that Christian doing work for God?
Again, let me ask you this question and I think it will become crystal clear for me.

Can a Christian resist doing good works?

I can't say I've treated you is how I should have, and for the troll accusation I apologize.
Thank-you. And I apologize for the Voodoo doll I made of you. 😊

I believe that if we met face to face and spoke on these same matters it would go much different.
I agree. 👍
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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So works are"evidence" of your salvation but not "proof" of it?

Do you ever re-read what you write before you post it?



But you just said works are "evidence" of salvation. If so, then Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Moonies, etc., have evidence by the bus-load.



Again, let me ask you this question and I think it will become crystal clear for me.

Can a Christian resist doing good works?



Thank-you. And I apologize for the Voodoo doll I made of you. 😊



I agree. 👍
"Do you ever re-read what you write before you post it?"
Do you read anything I write the first time?

Here you are right, I didn't mean "proof" of it. Evidence and proof are the same thing. What I am saying is my works are evidence, or "proof" of being saved, what that does NOT mean, and what you obviously think I am saying, is that these works PROVE my salvation, like I am saying they are the "deciding factor" in salvation. NOPE! Otherwise you would not make the "but Mormons do good works too, are they saved?" fallacious argument against me that has NOTHING to do with what I'm saying. What I am saying is that ANYONE truly reborn in Christ will display works, they will have been changed, this seems to be so foreign to you how can I conclude you know anything about His Spirit? You can't be saved and not changed. You just have to voice we can be saved and not work? Why? Really? Is this your testimony? If not name me one Christian you know to be truly saved that doesn't have any works.
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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I think it's perfectly fine to be refreshed and renewed in looking how our walk has changed because we have been saved by Grace through faith. In fact, Peter tells us to make our election sure. Everybody in this discussion understands that the walk is not what saves, but it's assuring to look back at what I was, vs. what I am.

2 Peter 1:
Fruitful Growth in the Faith
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control [d]perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither [e]barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make YOUR CALL AND ELECTION SURE, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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See. This is the thing. If our flesh WASN'T crucified, we would STILL be slaves to sin. The ONLY way to be free is to be in Christ and crucified with Him. If our flesh is still alive, we aren't a NEW Creation. Our New heart doesn't live alongside of a living fleshly heart.

This is why Paul tells us to reckon ourselves dead. Now we still sin. And we will until we receive our glorified bodies. The struggle Paul felt, that we ALL feel, is that our New heart lives in our dead flesh, that tries to deceive us that it is still alive.

I would highly recommend the book "The normal Christian life" by Watchman Nee. He deals with this issue brilliantly. $5 bucks on Amazon.
He is just blind to this whole concept completely. He just can't speak righteousness, or allow anyone else to. I think I'm just going to accept that he is just blind to this spiritual truth, he can parrot the catch phrases but it seems any depth escapes him. He doesn't seem to understand the idea of harmonizing ALL of Gods word, and only wants to repeat "but, but, but, we are always going to sin", which in my experiences seems like such an anti-power of God, and makes whole point of salvation seem useless. In my opinion. It's like he is trying to tickle the ears of people who haven't even entered the church yet. His whole everything is just weird to me. I do not hear the Shepard's voice in his message, and KNOW he has a wrong view on at least the old man thing. I think this is more a case of tribalism than anything else because everything he tries to rebuke me on I don't believe, and have never said. I told him he is a liar for saying I preach works, and if he couldn't produce a quote from me saying what he was accusing me of, and just like most every question asked to him, he ignores it.

But he produced no comment and didn't apologize for bearing false witness about my belief, so I have no choice to but to conclude he's a liar. Which is no problem for him of course because "We all sin", "We will always sin", "we sin everyday", "sin","sin","sin","sin","sin". It's all he speaks, and has no clue that was the only point I was ever making was why not speak about better parts of salvation. Maybe of what changes instead of what doesn't. Maybe find something else to teach in Jesus name. How is this so hard for a Christian to understand? It shouldn't be.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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He is just blind to this whole concept completely. He just can't speak righteousness, or allow anyone else to. I think I'm just going to accept that he is just blind to this spiritual truth, he can parrot the catch phrases but it seems any depth escapes him. He doesn't seem to understand the idea of harmonizing ALL of Gods word, and only wants to repeat "but, but, but, we are always going to sin", which in my experiences seems like such an anti-power of God, and makes whole point of salvation seem useless. In my opinion. It's like he is trying to tickle the ears of people who haven't even entered the church yet. His whole everything is just weird to me. I do not hear the Shepard's voice in his message, and KNOW he has a wrong view on at least the old man thing. I think this is more a case of tribalism than anything else because everything he tries to rebuke me on I don't believe, and have never said. I told him he is a liar for saying I preach works, and if he couldn't produce a quote from me saying what he was accusing me of, and just like most every question asked to him, he ignores it.

But he produced no comment and didn't apologize for bearing false witness about my belief, so I have no choice to but to conclude he's a liar. Which is no problem for him of course because "We all sin", "We will always sin", "we sin everyday", "sin","sin","sin","sin","sin". It's all he speaks, and has no clue that was the only point I was ever making was why not speak about better parts of salvation. Maybe of what changes instead of what doesn't. "Find something else to teach in Jesus name. How is this so hard for a Christian to understand? It shouldn't be.
It's ok brother. We are all in different phases of our walk and sanctification. I can remember when I first partially understood Grace, I would stamp out the very mention of ANYTHING to do with a Godly walk or works, EVEN if the person told me over and over again that their walk or works have NOTHING to do with justification.

Don't take offense. NONE of us have everything exactly right. But the one thing we DO need to get right is loving one another. I love you and Budman. Let's agree on that.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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It's ok brother. We are all in different phases of our walk and sanctification. I can remember when I first partially understood Grace, I would stamp out the very mention of ANYTHING to do with a Godly walk or works, EVEN if the person told me over and over again that their walk or works have NOTHING to do with justification.

Don't take offense. NONE of us have everything exactly right. But the one thing we DO need to get right is loving one another. I love you and Budman. Let's agree on that.
Very wise words, and your right. We are all on a walk and I don't believe the same as I did 5 years ago. That's for sure. Thanks man, it's easy to get caught up sometimes, and this helps me see I should reel it in a bit, it's just hard when you can use the same words and mean two completely different things. Anyway, I hope you and Bud have a great weekend. :)
 

Macabeus

Active member
Dec 27, 2018
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But then you turn right around and say things like: " Your so scared of the word "works" that you rather embrace "I will always sin". No you wont we are in the process of being made like Him, we will not ALWAYS sin anyway."

Let me know when you go through a SINGLE DAY without committing a sin.

Never gonna happen, Jim. Not while you possess a human body.



Sorry, but to get a little more clarity, I have to answer your question with a question:

Can a Christian resist doing good works?[/QUOTE

Jimbone, we need to stop feeding the troll
 

Macabeus

Active member
Dec 27, 2018
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Sorry to all for the fact that I got argumentative here. Apparently there is a lot of misunderstanding and disconnect between some of us, but no excuse to get frustrated. Sorry to all, especially Milee