Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims

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Are all believers, individually, empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will?

  • Yes, all believers are empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will.

    Votes: 8 32.0%

  • No, but some believers are empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will

    Votes: 2 8.0%

  • No, but collective prayer of the saints and individuals sometimes result in miracles

    Votes: 14 56.0%

  • No, and collective prayer of the saints and individuals never result in miracles

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 4.0%
  • Total voters
    25
J

Judges1318

Banned
#141
Nov 16, 2019
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#141
UnitedWithChrist said:
The disdain for such well-ordered exegesis is another facet of the charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith movement. They hate the academic understanding of God's word. Some of them don't even prepare for sermons, but stand up and speak what flows from their mouth under the guise of the "leading of the Holy Spirit".
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While I agree that this is a joke these days, there was a time this was in fact a legitimate and real way God spoke in the church, I mean in churches that believed in and sought the falling of the Holy Spirit in their meetings. Really exciting. As far as I can tell, though, this is gone from those kinds of churches today. Fame and riches ruined any credibility and truthfulness that these movements had in the past. :(
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

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#142
Judges1318 said:
While I agree that this is a joke these days, there was a time this was in fact a legitimate and real way God spoke in the church, I mean in churches that believed in and sought the falling of the Holy Spirit in their meetings. Really exciting. As far as I can tell, though, this is gone from those kinds of churches today. Fame and riches ruined any credibility and truthfulness that these movements had in the past. :(
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I should have qualified my words a bit on this one too by the way.

I believe the Holy Spirit sometimes delivers teaching in this way, such as Peter's inspired sermon at Pentecost. And, I know the Holy Spirit inspires men of God to speak a particular message that may not be planned in a given situation.

However, what I"m talking about is mindless blabbering that is not coherent. The person has no real direction, he simply connects sentences together that don't lead anywhere.

I attended Free-Will Baptist churches as a kid and that's what they call "preaching". That, and making choking sounds every few minutes in their theatric deliverances. Free-will Baptists are very much into emotionalism, too. I think they are more Pentecostal in their mindset than they would acknowledge.
 
T

TheLearner

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#143
UnitedWithChrist said:
A common claim by charismatics is that Christians are performing all the works that Jesus did during his earthly ministry.

Here's a verse that they commonly go to:

John 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

This claim came to a test recently with claims that Bethel Church (pastored by Bill Johnson) made concerning the death of a child of a member.

They "declared" that God would resurrect this child. However, this resurrection never occurred, and Bethel Church, again, is proved to be in gross error by claiming that they have such powers as believers.

Anyone who wants to research this can go to Youtube where various podcasts have clips from Bethel services concerning this.

Is this sort of delusion harmful? I think it is, because deceived believers are left with unmet expectations when claims like this are proven to be false.

Anyways, here's some discussion questions:

1. Are Christians, individually, able to do all the miracles of Jesus now?
2. Are Christians, collectively, able to do all the miracles of Jesus now?
3. What are we to conclude about Christians who claim they are doing such miracles? Are they deluded, lying, mentally ill, telling the truth? Or, is it a mixture?
4. What incidences of miracles have you seen? Were these miracles a result of church prayer, or individual prayer?
5. Do you claim personally to have miraculous gifts such as healing or resurrecting the dead?
6. Do you think that you personally can perform the miracles of Jesus at your will?
7. Is suffering a necessary part of the Christian lifestyle?

Now, before we start answering these questions, here's my view:

I believe most charismatics making audacious claims are either lying or deluded. Why would they do that? Maybe to get attention or to gain credibility as a great spiritual person

I believe it is possible for God to perform a miracle based on the prayers of the Church or the prayers of an individual. However, I believe such miracles are mostly attached to the proclamation of the gospel, and that they are mainly due to collective church prayer and not an individual.

I believe that irresponsible charismatic claims harm the Church, because, unfortunately, they are associated with Christianity and if the claims are lies or delusions, they reflect badly on the church as a whole, and in fact are causing God's name to be blasphemed amongst unbelievers (a violation of the second commandment regarding taking God's name in vain). As a former cultist, Christianity as a whole was disregarded by me, in part, because of the antics of the Word of Faith/charismatic/Pentecostal believers.

I don't believe that Christians as a whole perform miracles at will. When God wants to perform a miracle for his sovereign purposes, he prompts the prayer that leads to the miracle. However, his sovereign purposes may include suffering. In fact, I don't believe sanctification occurs without suffering.

Guys like Bill Johnson of Bethel claim there is no place for a theology of suffering. I am left wondering if he has even read the Bible. Scripture clearly teaches that suffering is used by God to bring the person to sanctification and glorification. In many ways, the life of the Christian mirrors Jesus Christ, in the sense that his suffering led to his exaltation and glorification. It really takes a theological buffoon to say some of the things I've heard from Word of Faith/charismatics in regards to suffering, and claiming that it is not God's will for believers to suffer.

That is one way I can tell whether someone is a babe in Christ, still nursing and in diapers, versus a mature believer. At best, the guy who thinks God is his cosmic Genie who is there to keep him from experiencing bad circumstances is a babe in Christ. He is still nursing and still in diapers, and unfortunately many in the Word of faith/charismatic movements are still there.

But, getting back to the Bethel antics regarding the resurrection of this child, I wonder how they will deal with that. Their shame is evident. And, I imagine the parents will feel guilty..what didn't we do right that this declared resurrection did not occur?

This is part of the madness of the charismatic/Word of Faith movement.

Additionally, be aware that Bethel purportedly has some sort of "resurrection squad" that follows first responders around and attempts to resurrect people needing emergency services. My understanding is that they claim they have resurrected 15 people this way.
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There is a group of Christian Doctors who put together guidelines for testing miracles. They meet together yearly to discuss the ones that have been verified. According to news papers I have died and others have claimed responsibility for my resurrections. I have never died yet.
 
CS1

CS1

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#144
UnitedWithChrist said:
My position would be that the "greater works" involve the scope of the gospel preaching, and the miracles of the apostles.

Regarding Bill Johnson, you are correct in that he doesn't represent all charismatics. Perhaps I should have qualified my criticism with the word "some" or maybe "many" or "most".

One reason I am not doing it is that I am not the entire church, and I am focused on my field, not someone else's. I am not a vain charismatic who believes he is doing a greater work than Jesus personally. I am humble enough to realize this, and to check out the commentaries of others, especially older, well-educated believers who know the original languages in depth.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with commentary. I am aware that I am one member of the body of Christ, and that other brothers have researched issues thoroughly and their input is coherent.

The disdain for such well-ordered exegesis is another facet of the charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith movement. They hate the academic understanding of God's word. Some of them don't even prepare for sermons, but stand up and speak what flows from their mouth under the guise of the "leading of the Holy Spirit". Those are the ones who say anything intelligible.

This anti-intellectualism arose in the early 1800's with Charles Finney and his "New School" movement. Unfortunately this is the norm within Christianity. It mostly came from "frontier religion" where the audience wasn't well educated, and emotionalism appealed to them over studying God's word in a systematic fashion.

By the way, I"m not surprised that charismatics are enraged by my position. However, if one of them claims they do greater works than Jesus, in terms of healings, resurrections, exorcisms, etcetera..show me. Show me any one person who does those kinds of works.
I totally believe God heals upon the collective prayers of his people if it is his sovereign will. I woudn't have a great problem with believing that God sometimes heals upon the prayers of individuals either.
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You do presuppose what you think I mean in your bias here you posted
(unitedwithChrist) "And, don't tell me that God won't show me because I am unbelieving".

Again you show your bias:
(UnitedwithChrist) "they hate the academic understanding of God's word. "

I do not hate nor do I agree with your unfounded assertion that We Pentecostals dislike Academics. I have address the context and provided an application with scripture using Greek translation for the word " Greater" found in John 14:12. Nor am I enraged by your post. That too was a false narrative you assumed. Another unfounded attacks on "they" who you distain or have issues with, you did not comment on my application of "greater works' from scripture I provided.

For one to understand what Jesus was meaning:
"He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (jn. 14:12 KJV)

We must look at what Jesus said he would do, what Jesus did do, and what he told his disciples to do.

Of course Jesus came to die for us as He said. Jesus also did not speak words without meaning nor did he lie as man does.


Jesus said I came to testify of the Truth
Jesus said He came to die and raise again
Jesus said He came to heal and to save

After looking at all Jesus said and HIS works, The authorial intent of John 14:12 does have valid applications that we too can do the same works Jesus did and more of it.
AS we do them we must have a servants heart and remain humble. Intellectual superiority does not count much with God, Truth does.

You say you don't have problem with God healing the collective prayers of his people if it is his sovereign will or sometimes heals upon the prayers of individuals. It's only wrong when those who you disagree with do that in HIs name?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#145
NayborBear said:
Even I don't believe Jesus raised himself from the dead!
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Well the Bible says otherwise. There are passages in the Bible which say that:
1. The Father raised Jesus from the dead.
2. The Son raised Himself from the dead.
3. The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.

There are no contradictions here since the triune Godhead was involved in this stupendous miracle. So you will need to revise your thinking on this matter.

Getting back to the OP, a couple of alternative options could also have been included. In any event Christians need to be aware of several things that are revealed in Scripture regarding signs, wonders, and miracles:

1. Christianity as such is supernatural. The New Birth itself is a miracle. The power of the Holy Spirit within the children of God is also supernatural.

2. Miracles are "signs" and generally for unbelieving Jews. Christ condemned those who always looked for a sign. On the other hand He commended simple faith.

3. Miracles occurred at specific times during the history of Israel, not all the time.

4. Miracles during the ministry of Christ and the apostles were to authenticate the fact that (a) Christ was truly from God, thus the true Messiah and (b) the Gospel was truly from God, thus the signs, wonders, and miracles of the apostles. On the Day of Pentecost, supernatural tongues were given to show the Jews that the Gospel was divine.

5. Healing was not guaranteed even while the apostles were on earth, and Paul's *thorn in the flesh* (a physical infirmity or disability, probably very poor eyesight) would not be healed deliberately. He even had to pray for Epaphroditus, and could not heal Timothy's ailing stomach.

6. According to James, the prayer of faith of the elders of the church was guaranteed to bring healing to a sick Christian. Whether this is put into practice in churches today is questionable.

7. The history of the Church shows that many men and women of God who were outstanding servants of God were in very poor health or seriously disabled. (And this does not even address the question of all the Christian martyrs who were brutally killed and executed).

8. Church history is clear that after the apostles passed on signs, wonders, and miracles ceased. Not one of the Apostolic Fathers claimed to be an apostle or a prophet.

9. Church history also reveals the the Roman Catholic Church began reporting counterfeit miracles, stigmata, levitation, etc. among Catholic *saints*. We also have charlatan *faith healers* today claiming to be miracles workers while promoting false doctrines and heresies.

10. Christians are always to pray and bring their needs to God, but physical healing is NOT guaranteed to believers. It is the healing of the soul which God is primarily involved with, since He has already told us that He will give His children glorious, immortal, perfect, eternal bodies at the Resurrection/Rapture.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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#146
NayborBear

NayborBear

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Dec 6, 2015
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A deplorable! (so you know, what "state" I'm in!)
#147
@Nehemiah6
@preacher4truth
I thought I had "qualified" my statement earlier, by stating that "Jesus alone" did not raise Himself from the dead. But, that the "Spirit of God" raised Jesus from the dead!
Did Jesus have the "Spirit of God" within Him? He sure did!

But, to flat out state, and teach, in such an "insinuating manner", that Jesus Himself, raised Himself from the dead?
WITHOUT God?
Is placing our Lord and Savior HERE!:
2 Thessalonians 2
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

And this is EXTREMELY MISLEADING! ESPECIALLY, to non-believers!
Either by uneducated "ignorance!"
Or? (worse) "WILLFULLY Ignorant!"
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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#149
Dec 28, 2016
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#149
NayborBear said:
@Nehemiah6
@preacher4truth
I thought I had "qualified" my statement earlier, by stating that "Jesus alone" did not raise Himself from the dead. But, that the "Spirit of God" raised Jesus from the dead!
Did Jesus have the "Spirit of God" within Him? He sure did!

But, to flat out state, and teach, in such an "insinuating manner", that Jesus Himself, raised Himself from the dead?
WITHOUT God?
Is placing our Lord and Savior HERE!:
2 Thessalonians 2
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

And this is EXTREMELY MISLEADING! ESPECIALLY, to non-believers!
Either by uneducated "ignorance!"
Or? (worse) "WILLFULLY Ignorant!"
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Now you're being silly. None of us stated Jesus did it "without God." Stop being so disingenuous and misrepresentative.

However, no one misrepresented you. Here is what you said, and you in fact ridiculed that Jesus raised Himself, which he, in fact, did:

NayborBear said:
Even I don't believe Jesus raised himself from the dead!

I do believe Jesus was raised from the dead, by the Spirit of God, however!

Jesus raising himself from the dead? Horse :poop::poop::poop::poop:!
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You should just own up and lose your accusations and defense of the above. You misspoke and now you're adding things we never stated. Be a Christian and stop the fabricating things not said, and own your misguided words.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#151
#151
preacher4truth said:
Our wills have zero power. It is "if God wills."
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really? scripture for that please

God continually says to us we must choose from the creation on throughout the Bible

you would have God tempt Adam and Eve through the serpent and that makes God frivolous and unfair

we could then blame Him directly for every sin we commit
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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#153
Guojing said:
You believe God loves you very much, more than any earthly father would?
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You're placing human criteria upon God for him to be God according to your rules. Take a biblical approach, not a sentimental approach.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#154
NayborBear said:
But, to flat out state, and teach, in such an "insinuating manner", that Jesus Himself, raised Himself from the dead? WITHOUT God?
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You are the one who started out with a wilfully ignorant statement. And since I said that the TRIUNE GODHEAD was fully involved with the resurrection of Christ, why did you come up with this nonsense about "without God"? Jesus Himself is God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit constitute the Godhead.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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#156
Lightskin said:
Regarding the parable of the persistent widow it seems both wills were in play.
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You don't understand Scripture very well and not just in this instance. This passage is a different subject altogether, it isnt the subject at hand nor is it salvific. No person wills to seek or petition God unless God moves them to do so.
 
Lightskin

Lightskin

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Aug 16, 2019
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#158
preacher4truth said:
You don't understand Scripture very well and not just in this instance. This passage is a different subject altogether, it isnt the subject at hand nor is it salvific. No person wills to seek or petition God unless God moves them to do so.
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You feel better pussycat with your little snide comment in the beginning of your post? I could have insulted you with your stupid post previous to this one but I chose not to, but don’t worry, I meet people where they are in life. If you want me to meet you in the gutter I’ll be happy to do so.
 
E

EleventhHour

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#159
#159
UnitedWithChrist said:
I pray that you experience and endure suffering, because it is part of the experience of every real Christian. Suffering is a tool that God uses in the process of conforming one to the image of Christ.
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Sounds like antiquated Roman Catholicism to me... yeah I grew up on that stuff.. ...overjoyed as a born again believer to learn that in reality...... God grace is really the only power to a holy life with or without suffering.

We are a new creation according to scripture..... suffering does not make us a new creation.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
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#160
Lightskin said:
Regarding the parable of the persistent widow it seems both wills were in play.
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In the view of some doctrine human is equal to "automaton" utterly incapable of anything but sin and a mind and heart so constrained by that sin they cannot even seek God... and yet how many times does Jesus tell us to seek Him.
 
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