Which Delivered Us from the Wrath to Come. (1Th 1:10)

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Paul refers to the 'church' receiving rest when Jesus comes back, executing vengence on them that believe not in I Thessalonians 2.

There was a sea change and it happened in 70 AD. 70 AD marked the end of the age the disciples and Jesus lived in and talked about. This was when the Law passed away.

Mat 5:

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven (the Temple symbolic of heaven on earth) and earth (the disbelieving Jews) pass away (in 70 AD), one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Are we still living with the Law? NO. When did the Law end? 70 AD. The passing of the Temple, Israel and the Law were fulfilled. IF THE LAW IS NO LONGER WITH US, THEN HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSED AWAY!! IF THE LAW IS GONE, THEN "ALL THINGS" HAVE BEEN FULFILLED!!

What was the "ALL" which was fulfilled?

Mark 13: “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

Luke 21: For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

What were "the days of vengeance?" Let's start by God exacting revenge against all those who killed His Son. In 70 AD, all wicked Jews on the planet were killed, 93% of the population. This left 7%, the righteous and Christian Jews left alive. We all know the meaning of 7.

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10)
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Then would not 'which delivered us from the wrath to come' be referring to the rapture of the Church?

The book of Revelation refers to the saints that will be on earth during. Are they appointed unto wrath or to obtain salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ? According to II Thessalonians 2, the church will receive rest when Jesus comes back executing wrath on them that believed not the truth.

I Thessalonians 4 says the dead in Christ shall rise first. So the resurrection is first, but just right before them which are alive and remain are raptured.

Come on people. The word "Rapture" is not written anywhere in the Bible. It is written in the Latin Vulgate and is means to "take up"
In my opinion the Rapture and the Resurrection are the same event.

Since the tribulation is the great outpouring of God's wrath, obviously His kids won't be on the receiving end of it any more than your obedient kids (If you love Me you will keep My commandments.) receive punishment and wrath from their loving Father. Funny, the one who comes with all the power and deceiving influences of Satan Himself, who is so powerful that he convinced 1/3 of the angels who were with God when the foundations of the earth were laid, cannot be revealed until "He that restrains" "is taken away". Now considering that even Michael, the Ark angel, won't even level an accusation against Satan but says, the Lord God reprove you, who can restrain Satan? Any ideas? Who is here that can restrain Satan himself? Just God, right.

Here's an interesting verse:

Joh 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

The "Helper"/ paraclete cannot be sent until Jesus departed. Does it make sense that that helper would have to depart "before" Jesus comes again? (Note: There is no room to be dogmatic, but that conclusion makes sense to me.)

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Couple of things "sealed" like with a signet ring of a king indicating the only one who has authority to open or take what is sealed. Plus the wording of "pledge of our future inheritance". A pledge is given "until" what the pledge is given for is received. If you never receive what the pledge is given for you keep the pledge. The ONLY time the pledge can be taken back is after you get what is pledged. In other words, if you are a true Christian, you will have the Holy Spirit indwelling you until you actually have received the inheritance ... in heaven.

Couple of things. Jesus is not physically here. The Holy Spirit is here because He indwells every true Christian. Third, the only time the Spirit can leave you is after you are in heaven and have received your inheritance. Next, "He" who restrains has to be gone for the antichrist to be revealed.

Add them altogether and what do you have? A pre-wrath rapture (Because we will not taste of the wrath that is to come.) Then the antichrist has his day, then Christ comes back. From what I see everything fits.

The word is harpadzo in Greek. Exact meaning "Taken or caught" up. Latin "Rapturo" exact meaning: "Taken or caught" up. The meaning is EXACTLY the same it's just in a different language. Arguing that Rapturo is not in the original Greek is like arguing that "caught up together is not in the original Greek. Duh, that's because it wasn't written in English. The same meaning is there.

So why do we use rapture instead of harpodzo? Probably because no one wants to be harpodzoed and we all like rapture. Harpodzo sounds like something people do to an unfortunate whale. As long as you agree that we are all going to be caught up together with Him in the air, we all understand the same thing. BUT the resurrection occurs first before you are harpodzoed. LOL

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

There is an order, and the resurrection is a different event altogether. They just happen rapidly after each other ... in the twinkling of an eye.

This is another example of how pre-tribbers reading into verses. Look at the context:

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The passage does not say the church is in heaven. The voice says 'hiw wife has made herself ready' not 'he has made us ready. The wedding is announced. It does not say the church is there yet. Jesus raptures the church at the parousia, according to I Thessalonians 4. The scene soon after this in Revelation 19 shows Christ on a white horse.



You are reading a lot into that verse, but since the Bible teaches the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at his parousia, this fits that teaching of Paul's as well as it does your theory.



That's not my theory. The saints meet the Lord in the air as He comes.



After the marriage supper of the Lamb is announced, we see the groom.

And this announcement.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;



Revelation doesn't say that. God's wrath is God's wrath. It is not a time period. Look up wrath in the dictionary.



That contradicts your theory since there are believers mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


It is used in the singular of a church in and a church in a house. When speaking of regions, the plural 'churches' is used. We see this in Acts and the epistles. Paul uses it in certain places to refer to the universal church, or the church throughout time and space, or to use the terminology of Hebrews, the general assembly and church of the firstborn.

Paul uses 'church' to refer to a local church at the return of at His parousia, when he comes executing vengence on them that believe not, when he comes to be glorified in the saints (compare to the terminology of Revelation.) The church will be raptured at Christ's parousia according to I Thessalonians 4, and the wicked of II Thessalonians 2 will be destroyed at the brightness of his parousia. Your theory does not even have the man of sin being revealed until after the rapture. That is not consistent with Paul's letters to the Thessalonians.


Paul's direct teaching in II Thessalonians and directly using the word 'church' trumps guesswork based on supposed trues.



If you are going to resort to such allegorical interpretation to try to squeeze a pre-trib rapture out of that verse, why go with a literal interpretation of Revelation at all? Why not just interpret the whole thing with the allegorical approach you are using on this verse?


Paul tells the church they will receive rest when Jesus comes to execute judgment on them that believe not and to be glorified in the church.

My friend, the pre-tribbers and pre-mils are indeed correct. I urge you to please review the relevant scriptures from this perspective. Expect a blessing in wisdom and understanding.

I am premil, but not pre-trib.

In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture and resurrection occur at the parousia/the coming of Christ.

In II Thessalonians 2, which speaks of the man of sin, that wicked one is destroyed at the brightness of Christ's coming/parousia.

But pre-trib has the rapture 7 years before Christ returns and the wicked one is destroyed. Don't you see the problem? Pre-trib rests on reading pre-trib into eschatological passages, assuming that pre-trib is right and then treating scripture as commentary.

No Sir. Two different events, two different subjects, two different times. Please see Chuck Missler he can straighten out this matter for your benefit.

Two parousias. Show us a verse that indicates that there are two more comings of Christ yet to come.

My experience with the late Chuck Missler's teachings is that he assumes pretrib and reads it into passages, too.

Pre-trib rests on reading pre-trib into eschatological passages, assuming that pre-trib is right and then treating scripture as commentary.

I am premil, but not pre-trib.

In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture and resurrection occur at the parousia/the coming of Christ.

In II Thessalonians 2, which speaks of the man of sin, that wicked one is destroyed at the brightness of Christ's coming/parousia.

But pre-trib has the rapture 7 years before Christ returns and the wicked one is destroyed. Don't you see the problem? Pre-trib rests on reading pre-trib into eschatological passages, assuming that pre-trib is right and then treating scripture as commentary.

Sorry man. Been through this hundreds of times. Missler is correct. See his work its quite thrilling really. People may have misunderstood certain aspects of prophecy in the past, but today, Daniels prophecies and so many others fit like a glove, with no loose ends, no omissions, and all covenants and prophecies fulfilled to the letter and precisely on time. We are in the age, specified by the required world-wide communication system, a soon to be worldwide financial system and governmental system and so on and so forth.

The pre-trib rapture and millennial reign is undoubtedly correct. The Church never sees one single wrath seal opened, and are in heaven in Rev 4 & 5 and never see Rev 6-19.

When I heard Missler on the topic, he was taking a passage on the end times, maybe II Thessalonians 2, and assuming pre-trib and commenting on the passage as if that is what it were about. I haven't seen anyone 'derive' pretribe from scripture, except for the argument that the apostasy is the rapture, which does not fit the context of that passage, and is contrary to the way Paul uses it elsewhere.

Pls review these relevant scriptures. Jesus is EXPLICIT in warning He will come as a thief....to those who are NOT watchful and prepared.

John 14:1-3
Rom 8:19
1 Cor 1:7-8
1 Cor 15:1-53
1 Cor 16:22
Phil 3:20-21
Col 3:4
1 Thess 1:10
1 Thess 2:19
1 Thess 4:13-18
1 Thess 5:9
1 Thess 5:23
2 Thess 2:1 (3?)
1 Tim 6:14
2 Tim 4:1
Titus 2:13
Heb 9:28
James 5:7-9
1 Peter 1:7, 13
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 21
Rev 2:25
Rev 3:10

So if you knew the second coming was going to happen to the day because Jesus came back 7 years before, that would be a problem.