Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

Being raptured (or dead...) is *A* way Christians can be spared God's wrath, but not the only way. As you illustrated, Lot was not raptured.

In Matthew 13, Jesus gives TWO parables, both of which carry the same message: the parable of the weeds (24-30, 36-43), and the parable of the net (47-52). That is nice--and indeed, it is probably why Jesus needed to illustrate His point with TWO word pictures, not one--because if the meaning you get is contained within both parables, then that is probably Jesus' intended meaning. But if it is only contained in one, then you are probably going off on an tangent somewhere.

The gist of the parables is something along the lines of, "The rain falls equally on the righteous and the wicked." But in the end, the angels will come and sort them all out. They will not be sorted now--but in the end they will be. The reason why they are not sorted now is because--in the first parable--you will accidentally pull up some wheat if you try and pull the weeds now. In the second parable, if you try and throw out the bad fish while they are still in the net, you will end up ripping the net and lose some of the good fish.

These parables were told 2,000 years ago, so even if the sorting happened over the span of 7 years, that is all the end of the age to them. All this talk about resurrections, or something happening first is going off on a tangent, and not inherent to both parables. The only possible reference to tribulation would be that the good and the bad both have to share the same soil, the same net--and one can reasonably infer that that will have ramifications for how this life is going to look like. But that has nothing to do with a 7-year Tribulation at the end--that's the tribulation we have always faced for all time. Believers have always shared the same soil with the non-believing. If anything at all, it weakly suggests post-trib, because pre-trib suggests that believers and nonbelievers will NOT share the same soil for a period of 7 years.

Cults are never interested in biblical truth.

That's why you should pay close attention when Bible-believing Christians show you the errors of your beliefs. You too seem to show an aversion to the truth. Thus far you have not accepted a single truth that was presented.

this is a typical reply only really to be expected. You must be the only Pre Trib enthusiast who doesnt believe that Paul was talking about Gods wrath at the second coming. There is at least one person on site who hardly ever fails to quote this
part concerning Gods wrath as the reason for the Pre Trib Rapture as he believes it.

I could argue round in circles with you forever. I have compared plain scripture with scripture and what I have written is the result of doing so. I leave others to be the judge of it.

That's why you should pay close attention when Bible-believing Christians show you the errors of your beliefs. You too seem to show an aversion to the truth. Thus far you have not accepted a single truth that was presented.

It is appointed to man once to die. Do you believe that?

Of course. Reincarnation is totally false. And what you have quoted corresponds to Romans 5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

All human beings are subject to death. BUT THAT DOES NOT PRECLUDE the Rapture of the saints, which is clearly taught in Scripture and pre-figured in the rapture of Enoch. The Rapture means that living saints are transformed, glorified and taken up to Heaven supernaturally, just like Enoch.

And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. (Gen 5:23,24)
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5)

The case of Elijah is slightly different, since God sent a heavenly chariot with heavenly horses to take Elijah to Heaven.
And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into Heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal... And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold,there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into Heaven. (2 Kings 2:1,11)

Not even remotely correct.

Matt 13:39
and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

Being raptured (or dead...) is *A* way Christians can be spared God's wrath, but not the only way. As you illustrated, Lot was not raptured.

Heb 11:13 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

ALL THESE DIED -->[...FINISH THE *ENTIRE* SENTENCE ]. Did you know Enoch is on that list. Do you believe this?

I've seen some suggest (and I agree) that where it says "ALL THESE," that it is speaking SPECIFICALLY about those IN THAT SECTION (meaning, namely, Abraham and his descendants rather than the entire listing that came before THESE specific ones in this particular SECTION of the text)

In the "examples" Jesus supplied about "Noah" and "Lot" I've mentioned before that these are set in contexts about His Second Coming to the earth (ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come [etc]" passages are speaking about His Second Coming to the earth [to judge and to reign], FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50; Matt24:27,37,39,44 and parallels; Lk12:35,36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (as I've mentioned)... and many more I won't list here (who even examines these?? lol)...];

In view of this (and the other details I pointed out that will be true of that point-in-time, like Lk17:27,29 "and destroyed them ALL" [which is not what happens following "our Rapture," btw--I've supplied details on that/those passages]),
...in view of that (at top paragraph),

...consider the following:

[quoting Commentary excerpt at BibleHub, by Gaebelein on Hebrews 11]

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This we believe that the worlds were framed by the Word of God. Abel is next mentioned. The truth of salvation is seen in his case. Sin and death had come in. By faith, trusting in the promise, acknowledging his true condition, he brought a more excellent sacrifice than Cain. He approached God with that more excellent sacrifice. He obtained witness that he was righteous. He was justified by faith. And Abel himself who died by the hand of his brother is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.

Enoch was translated by faith that he should not see death. In Abel the truth of righteousness by faith is illustrated. Enoch, walking with God, believing God and prophesying (Jude 1:14-15) went to heaven without passing through death. The power of death was destroyed in his case; the power of that life he possessed was manifested in his translation. How blessedly Abel and Enoch show forth that by faith righteousness and life are bestowed upon those who believe. The great sacrifice, typified by Abel’s more excellent sacrifice and also by his death, has conquered death, Through death Christ has destroyed him who had the power of death (Hebrews 2:14).

Enoch is a type of the Church. He prophesied of coming judgment (the deluge) but did not pass through that judgment. Even so the true Church, when the Lord comes, will be taken from earth to glory without dying, before tribulation, wrath and judgment come upon this age [note: I would say, "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" which is distinct], which ends like the days of Noah. Enoch also received testimony before he was translated that he pleased God, for he walked in faith in His presence and in His fellowship. This is the walk into which all God’s people are called and which faith and the power of the indwelling spirit make possible. Without faith (a faith which clings close to Him, trusts in His word and is obedient) it is impossible to please Him.

Hebrews 11:7 speaks of Noah and his faith. In this verse we find mentioned the ground of faith (warned of God); the realm of faith (things not seen); the exercise of faith (he feared); the work of faith (he prepared an ark); the result of faith (he saved his house); the testimony of faith (he condemned the world) and the reward of faith (heir to righteousness). It is the most remarkable verse in the whole chapter. Enoch was caught up to heaven before the deluge came. Noah was warned of the unseen judgment to come (which Enoch had warned would come) and was roused with godly fear. He is a type of the godly remnant of Jews at the end of this present age [meaning, following "our Rapture"], who will pass through tribulation and judgment, after the true Church has left the earth, and having passed through the judgment, as Noah did, will inherit the earth. Noah represents the faith and exercise of this Jewish remnant, which will be saved out of [see Jer30:7 about "Jacob" who will experience "the time of Jacob's trouble"] the judgments at the close of this age [note: again, I would call it more specifically-accurate to say, "the end [singular] of the age [singular]," which is distinct].


--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hebrews 11, Source: BibleHub

[end quoting; bold, underline and bracketed inserts mine; parentheses original]

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= ) Hope that helps you see my perspective (didn't feel like typing out such things entirely by myself, ATM, so placed this here, for it is the point I would be making, on this Subject.

Of course people who don’t believe every word of the Bible perfect will twist it to fit their VERSION of the Bible.

I am more-or-less replying to you and cv5 both here. I don't allegorize either Enoch or Lot. I don't see either as a "type". Lot and Enoch are men.

Enoch I suppose was taken off the planet, though I'm not aware of any particular wrath he was spared in the process.

In the same way, it is possible that Christians might be spared God's wrath by: a) doing what God says, and b) God taking Christians off the grid, or out of the Beast's clutches. But not necessarily off the planet. The Woman and the Dragon (Rev. 12) seems to strongly indicate the Church gets sheltered somewhere, though it does not say where (other than the "wilderness").

Lot had to take very specific steps commanded by God in order to be spared--which indeed, his wife did not obey. A pre-trib rapture not only spares Christians from experiencing any tribulation--but it absolves them from having to obey anything, either. They just get blink-and-you're-gone.

If you have Biblical grounds for a pre-trib rapture, okay, but "Christians are spared God's wrath, therefore Rapture has to be pre-trib" simply does not constitute a complete argument.

I believe it was you (forgive me if I'm mistaken on this) who, not too many posts ago, used one of the passages to say that it is saying "the end OF THE WORLD". The problem with that is, that Jesus (and His disciples later) was saying "the end [singular] OF THE AGE [singular]" Matt13:30,39,49-50, for example, which passage followed what He had just said to them about "[re: age-singular] the one TO COME/COMING" in Matthew 12:32 - "...neither in this age [singular], nor in the age COMING [SINGULAR]". "Age [singular]" is attached with earth-time and -history. His disciples understood Him accurately (regarding this) as their proper "expectation" (the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom--though they were unaware of its TIMING). And it IS their proper expectation, as Acts 3:21 states, "whom heaven must receive UNTIL the timeS of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD SPAKE BY the mouths of His holy prophets from the age" [i.e. the OT prophets concerning this issue ]






[and, by the way, the passages speaking of "one shall be taken, the other LEFT" is what will take place at the time of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (not a Rapture context, here), where just like in Noah's day, the ones "taken" are "taken away in judgment," and the ones "left" will be "left to enter the earthly MK age" in their mortal bodies, JUST LIKE IN NOAH'S DAY ]

Heb 11:13 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

ALL THESE DIED. Did you know Enoch is on that list. Do you believe this?

Yep "End Of The World" right in the good ole KJV, 409 years and going strong!

Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

I am more-or-less replying to you and cv5 both here. I don't allegorize either Enoch or Lot. I don't see either as a "type". Lot and Enoch are men.

The point is, Lot was delivered from God's wrath--by God taking Lot out of SODOM. Not off the planet. Enoch I suppose was taken off the planet, though I'm not aware of any particular wrath he was spared in the process.


In the same way, it is possible that Christians might be spared God's wrath by: a) doing what God says, and b) God taking Christians off the grid, or out of the Beast's clutches. But not necessarily off the planet. The Woman and the Dragon (Rev. 12) seems to strongly indicate the Church gets sheltered somewhere, though it does not say where (other than the "wilderness"). Lot had to take very specific steps commanded by God in order to be spared--which indeed, his wife did not obey. A pre-trib rapture not only spares Christians from experiencing any tribulation--but it absolves them from having to obey anything, either. They just get blink-and-you're-gone.

If you have Biblical grounds for a pre-trib rapture, okay, but "Christians are spared God's wrath, therefore Rapture has to be pre-trib" simply does not constitute a complete argument.

Good grief man! Hebrews 11:5 that reiterates the fact that Enoch did NOT die.

"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God."

Please stop bungling these Scriptures it is very exasperating.