50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
- Thread starter cv5
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This is a tricky one, difficult to read.
verse 25 and 26 is the correct order "He must reign till He hath put all His enemies under His feet .... the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
Going back to verse 23
But every man in his own order. Christ the firstfruits THEN they who are His at His coming ... wait a minute there is 2, 000 years there, between Christ's resurrection and then they who are His at His coming.
THEN [there is another gap ... 1, 000 years]
cometh the end when He shall have delivered up the Kingdom to His Father when He shall have put down all rule and power and authority ...
But YOU say there is no kingdom to give up to His Father. But He must reign until He hath put all His enemies under His feet.
So it is
1st Christ
2nd then they who are His
3rd then cometh the end
verse 25 and 26 is the correct order "He must reign till He hath put all His enemies under His feet .... the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
Going back to verse 23
But every man in his own order. Christ the firstfruits THEN they who are His at His coming ... wait a minute there is 2, 000 years there, between Christ's resurrection and then they who are His at His coming.
THEN [there is another gap ... 1, 000 years]
cometh the end when He shall have delivered up the Kingdom to His Father when He shall have put down all rule and power and authority ...
But YOU say there is no kingdom to give up to His Father. But He must reign until He hath put all His enemies under His feet.
So it is
1st Christ
2nd then they who are His
3rd then cometh the end
A Tricky One?
Only to one who desires to bend and twist the very clear words of God below, to maintain a false Zionist Millennial Kingdom on this earth, that will never take place
Yes when Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection and catching up takes place, as the mortal becomes immortal in the glorified body received, as the last enemy death is destroyed (The End)
The Second Coming Is (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom on Earth As You Falsely Believe And Teach
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,
(Then Cometh The End)
(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Only to one who desires to bend and twist the very clear words of God below, to maintain a false Zionist Millennial Kingdom on this earth, that will never take place
Yes when Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection and catching up takes place, as the mortal becomes immortal in the glorified body received, as the last enemy death is destroyed (The End)
The Second Coming Is (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom on Earth As You Falsely Believe And Teach
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,
(Then Cometh The End)
(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
A Tricky One?
Only to one who desires to bend and twist the very clear words of God below, to maintain a false Zionist Millennial Kingdom on this earth, that will never take place (Fact)
Yes when Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection and catching up takes place, as the mortal becomes immortal in the glorified body received, as the last enemy death is destroyed (The End)
There is no 1,000 year Zionist Millennial Kingdom On This Earth Between Verses 23-24 As You "Falsely" Claim, Adding To Scripture
The Second Coming Is (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom on Earth As You Falsely Believe And Teach
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,
(Then Cometh The End)
(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Only to one who desires to bend and twist the very clear words of God below, to maintain a false Zionist Millennial Kingdom on this earth, that will never take place (Fact)
Yes when Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection and catching up takes place, as the mortal becomes immortal in the glorified body received, as the last enemy death is destroyed (The End)
There is no 1,000 year Zionist Millennial Kingdom On This Earth Between Verses 23-24 As You "Falsely" Claim, Adding To Scripture
The Second Coming Is (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom on Earth As You Falsely Believe And Teach
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,
(Then Cometh The End)
(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Not quite.
The N.T. ASSEMBLY and O.T. ASSEMBLY is the BRIDE.
Jesus Never USED the WORD CHRISTIAN or CHURCH. You can look that up.
Here is what HE CALLED US, and it was after the BIBLE was completed, when they Changed the Meaning of ekklêsia to include CHURCH.
QUOTE:
Greek NASB Number: 1577
Greek Word: ἐκκλησία
Transliterated Word: ekklêsia
Root: from 1537 and 2564;
Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation:--
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.
:END QUOTE.
So Here is what JESUS CALLED US:
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
He also called the O.T. ASSEMBLY His ASSEMBLY.
John 10:15-16 (ASV)
15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have {HE said that to the last of the O.T. Assemby, about us, the N.T. Assembly}, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd {At the Rapture we become ONE FLOCK.}.
Isaiah 54:5-6 (HCSB)
5 Indeed, your husband is your Maker— His name is Yahweh of Hosts— and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; He is called the God of all the earth.
6 For the LORD has called you, like a wife deserted and wounded in spirit, a wife of one’s youth when she is rejected,” says your God.
Isaiah 62:5 (HCSB)
5 For as a young man marries a young woman, so your sons will marry you; and as a groom rejoices over ⌊his⌋ bride, so your God will rejoice over you.
The Lord's Final Judgement Will Be By "Fire"
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.
This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!
(Behold, I Make All Things New)
2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.
This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!
(Behold, I Make All Things New)
2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
I disagree. The rapture is only for those "in Christ" while they were living. It was impossible for the OT saints to be "in Christ" for He and not yet died for them. I believe their resurrection will come at the end of the week. We will be one flock during Marriage Supper!
I am not sure if the OT saints will be part of the Bride or just guests. Do you have a verse?
I am not sure if the OT saints will be part of the Bride or just guests. Do you have a verse?
Actually, I go by what is written. I find position in Revelation very relevant. Events written in one chapter will certainly have after events in previous chapters and before events in future chapters - except for what is inside parentheses. In other words, things in chapter 6 are before the trib and nothing in chapter 6 could be moved to chapter 11. Anyone who insists on such rearranging will be proven wrong.
Now where on earth are you getting your theology from, it is not coming from the BIBLE ?
O.T. Assembly = those who believed GOD would send Messiah to pay for their sins.
N.T. Assembly = those who believed GOD did send Messiah to pay for our sins.
NOW HOW IS THAT NOT the Same Faith that Put us IN CHRIST ? ? ?
Psalm 51:11-12 (ESV)
11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.
Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.
That means the SAME WAY HE SAVED PEOPLE IN THE O.T. times is the SAME WAY HE SAVES THEM NOW.
Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
10 “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
11 I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
Deuteronomy 30:6 (ESV)
6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
Has he not Circumcised OUR hearts, so that we will LOVE THE LORD ? ? ?
Matthew 22:37-38 (HCSB)
37 He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and most important command.
Look in my last post for your answer to your question.
Ah! Now you see who that verse was pointed to! 
I want to ask you a question: I hope you will totally honest: Since you believe you will see the man of sin first, suppose Jesus came tonight: can you honestly say you were eagerly expecting Him - "looking for Him?"
I want to ask you a question: I hope you will totally honest: Since you believe you will see the man of sin first, suppose Jesus came tonight: can you honestly say you were eagerly expecting Him - "looking for Him?"
"many [said He] will be offended and fall away and brother will betray brother ... " these are they who have bought the line that the church will not go through the great persecution aka the great tribulation.
... I meant to say "she is the Bride"
Some ancient old latin texts which pre-date St Jerome's vulgate have it "at midnight the cry went up "behold the Bridegroom cometh with His bride ..."
Why did Jerome drop that? I think he saw the virgins as the church and knew that there could not be 2 churches, so he dropped the bride. That solved his problem but it altered the meaning of the parable. All translations have followed Jerome.
But whether she is mentioned or not she is still there conspicuous by her absence.
Some ancient old latin texts which pre-date St Jerome's vulgate have it "at midnight the cry went up "behold the Bridegroom cometh with His bride ..."
Why did Jerome drop that? I think he saw the virgins as the church and knew that there could not be 2 churches, so he dropped the bride. That solved his problem but it altered the meaning of the parable. All translations have followed Jerome.
But whether she is mentioned or not she is still there conspicuous by her absence.
1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
All those that are dead in Christ shall come together with the living in Christ at the pre-trib rapture. This is the Church that will be the Bride of Christ clothed in fine white linen as described in Revelation 19.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
All those that are dead in Christ shall come together with the living in Christ at the pre-trib rapture. This is the Church that will be the Bride of Christ clothed in fine white linen as described in Revelation 19.
-
1
- Show all
No
The ac is the white horseman.
That scene John saw of Jesus taking the scroll is future. It will happen .
You are framing end times in the framework that it already happened.
That entire scene is future.
But that historical view has you also framing a future ac into a mid trib model.
You think the ac is not REVEALED untill he desecrates the temple.
Not so.
The ac is the white horseman.
That scene John saw of Jesus taking the scroll is future. It will happen .
You are framing end times in the framework that it already happened.
That entire scene is future.
But that historical view has you also framing a future ac into a mid trib model.
You think the ac is not REVEALED untill he desecrates the temple.
Not so.