Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

You mean with Abraham's Seed, right. As in singular? Which is Christ. That's what Paul taught:

"For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

"Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ."

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise."

Paul taught us how to regard the promises given to Abraham.

I'm just teasing Aaron56. I know you to be one of the most gracious and amenable people on the site.

But I believe Christ was always the promise to Abraham.
John 8:56-59.

Consider what I'd put in an old post, regarding what is meant when Jesus said (John 8:56), "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY DAY: and he saw it, and was glad"...


[quoting old post]

As for the Heb11:13 "these all died in faith"...

[quoting excerpt from Wm Kelly's Commentary on Hebrews 11--I tried to place his first paragraph here in such a way as to draw attention to the various Greek words (etc) used for what is most often translated simply as "by faith" in our English, but which are actually distinct Greek words... (inserts in BLUE are mine)]

But "that day" is not yet come; and we return to their fathers. From the rising above difficulties insuperable save to God on whose word they relied (verses 11, 12), we have a summary in verses 13-16, which brings out the patriarchs refusing all temptation, and by faith holding on their pilgrim way to death consistently with the accomplishment of promise. This is the reason why the phraseology chances [changes] in the beginning of verse 13.
It is no longer "in" [en] faith, that is, in virtue (or the power) of faith as in verse 2, where such a force is requisite, [...].
Nor further is it the proximate cause, the dynamic or instrumental dative as in verses 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, and again in 17, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 27, 29, 30, and 31.
Still less does it distinguish faith as the means "through" [dia] which, as in 4, 7, 33.
Here (verse 13), if we say "in," we mean according to [kata] faith, contrasted with sight or possession of the things promised. What indeed would be the sense of saying that "by" or "through" faith all these died?
Nor is it "in" i.e. in virtue of faith, but according to [kata] faith as in verse 7 of our chapter, where the precisely same phrase occurs [that is, in v.7c]. [...] Conformity with faith is here predicated of Abraham and those patriarchs that followed, not for perseverance to the end though this was the fact, but in being content to wait for God's fulfilling the promises in due time.

"According to [kata] faith died these all, not having received promises, but from afar having seen and saluted [or, embraced] them, and confessed that they were ["are," historical] strangers and sojourners on the earth [or, land]. For they that say such things clearly show that they seek after a fatherland. And if indeed they were* calling to mind whence they went out, they would have had opportunity to return; but now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly. Wherefore God is not ashamed of them to be called their God; for he prepared for them a city" (verses 13-16).
[...]
The aim in these verses is to present vividly that common pilgrim path in which the patriarchs walked, even to their death, before the Spirit takes up characteristic workings of faith, even in Abraham as well as in each of those that followed, as far as it bore on the subject in hand and the special help of those virtually addressed. How timely and needful it must have been we may gather, because they expand the truth already set forth briefly in verses 9, 10.

Neither death, nor the unseen state that succeeds, was the accomplishment of the promises. On the contrary their death without receiving what was promised was in accordance [kata] with faith, and the witness of its single-eyed integrity. And the accomplishment of the promises supposed, what they could not as yet understand any more than anticipate, the second advent of the Lord even more than the first, although the first was the far more solemn in itself, and the righteous basis of the blessings and glories which await the second. Hence the force of our Lord's word in John 8:56, "Abraham rejoiced that he should see my day, and he saw and was glad." Neither technically nor substantially was the first [advent] mainly in view as has been thought, but that day when God's word and oath shall be vindicated before a wondering and rejoicing world. The patristic dream, which some dream over again, [i.e. the supposition] that it refers to what Abraham beheld after death when our Lord was here, is as unwarranted a perversion as the Socinian interpretation which Meyer justly stigmatises [...]. The design of our Lord and of that chapter [John 8] is to prove Himself the Light and Word and Son and God Himself; and hence the contrast between Abraham who believed and his seed who did not. Whatever glimpse Abraham may have had of the truth to which the sacrifice on Moriah pointed, it was to the full accomplishment of the promise he looked, and saw by faith what still awaits fulfilment, the period of Christ's manifested glory, "My day." In this hope brightly breaking through the clouds Abraham exulted, and he saw, as faith ever sees, and rejoiced. He, like the rest, saw the promises in their accomplishment from afar off.

And so died these all in accordance with faith as they lived, looking forward to Messiah's day for making good the promises.

--William Kelly, Commentary on Hebrews 11 (From BibleHub) - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/hebrews/11.htm

[end quoting; bold, underline, and some bracketed inserts mine (in BLUE)--including the particular Greek words he's referring to--; parentheses and some brackets original]
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bottom line: the phrase "these [G3778] all died according to faith" refers to those in vv.8-12 in particular.

[end quoting that post]




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Hope that helps you see my perspective on "Abraham rejoiced to see MY DAY" in John 8:56. = )

"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob'”; (Rom 11:25-26, RSV)

If we believe the Jews will come to Christ later, and that now is the time of the Gentiles, should we not then pray more earnestly for the Arabs? For the record, I am certainly not against praying for Jews, but it seems to me that the reconciliation of the Arab people is more at hand.

and that now is the time of the Gentiles

The phrase as you have it ^ here, is not the biblical phrase. That phrase is "the TIMES of the Gentiles" and it is not referring to (something like) "the Church age presently" ('now'), as many suppose.

Rather, where Scripture speaks of it (Lk21:24), it is referring to "Gentile domination over Israel"--think: Neb's "dream/statue/image" with Neb as "head of gold"--it started in 606/605bc and will not be concluded until Christ's Second Coming to the earth (what Dan2:35c and Dan7:25,27 are speaking to), yet future.


The phrase, "the FULNESS of the Gentiles [be come in - G1525]" is something distinct from that (and relates to the post I put at a link in my Post #89 of this thread-- https://christianchat.com/threads/z...contradicted-by-scripture.210116/post-5045274 )

They possessed ALL the land as promised:

"Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to their ancestors that he would give them; and having taken possession of it, they settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their ancestors; not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the LORD had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one of all the good promises that the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass." (Josh 21:43-45, NRSV)

"And you gave them kingdoms and peoples, and allotted to them every corner, so they took possession of the land of King Sihon of Heshbon and the land of King Og of Bashan. You multiplied their descendants like the stars of heaven, and brought them into the land that you had told their ancestors to enter and possess. So the descendants went in and possessed the land, and you subdued before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gave them into their hands, with their kings and the peoples of the land, to do with them as they pleased. And they captured fortress cities and a rich land, and took possession of houses filled with all sorts of goods, hewn cisterns, vineyards, olive orchards, and fruit trees in abundance; so they ate, and were filled and became fat, and delighted themselves in your great goodness." (Neh 9:22-25, NRSV)

They lost the land and kingdom due to disobedience:

"Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that produces the fruits of the kingdom. The one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.” (Matt 21:43-44, NRSV)

"So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy those tenants and give the vineyard to others.” When they heard this, they said, “Heaven forbid!” But he looked at them and said, “What then does this text mean: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone’?" (Luke 20:15-17, NRSV)

"Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him." (John 4:21-23, NRSV)

Many men of God in the past and present believed there was to be a mass conversion of Jews just prior to the second coming, Rom. 11:25ff. But in that passage there is no mention of .....

1. There is no mention of them going back to Palestine
2. There is no rebuilt temple in that passage
3. There are no thrones mentioned
4. Also no sacrifices mentioned as in a regression to the Old Covenant
5. Among the orthodox in the faith, the mass conversion of the Jews was seen to be to Christ and his church, not going back into Old Testament times in Palestine.

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

"Yet God forbid that I should boast about anything or anybody except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, which means that the world is a dead thing to me and I am a dead man to the world. But in Christ it is not circumcision or uncircumcision that counts but the power of new birth. To all who live by this principle, to the true Israel of God, may there be peace and mercy!"
(Gal 6:14-16 Phillips)

As I said, this is a bad weather day for me. But we need to start at the beginning. There were covenants that God made with Abe and his descendants, and that was an unconditional and everlasting covenant. There is where we begin. That promise of land was expanded with the Palestinian Covenant. The Jews have not yet had all the land promised to them and that is where prophesy begins with Israels return in 1948. This is the beginning of the subject. If you're not around to discuss it I will wait until you return so we can continue.

Israel's land promise already fulfilled & completed.

Zionism is a "movement" not a religion,faith ect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism everyone uses the word Zionism as if it is a religion,faith ect. like Christianity,,Judaism ect.

They lost use of the land because of disobedience, but not the deed.

The book of Joshua is dated around 1400 BC

The dispensationalist system is about as convoluted as you can get. No SANE person could read the Bible from scratch and come up with that system of theology! You have to be indoctrinated into it.

The dispensationalist system is about as convoluted as you can get. No SANE person could read the Bible from scratch and come up with that system of theology! You have to be indoctrinated into it.

Yes devised in the 1880's and then how fortuitous Israel became a nation again.