Has the pre trib rapture belief alienated a whole group of people against each other

Does the historicist view see the Pope as the first beast?

One of the problems with the 'pre-trib' view is that it artificially creates "its own little dispensation" out of the last 7 years of the current 'dispensation' - cutting it off in order to form another separate 'dispensation' - so that it may be "assigned" to Israel.

This is not biblically valid - mostly because not everything the 'pre-trib' view tries to place into that 7 years is biblical.

Let me tell you what is in the Bible that is valid to "assign" to Israel - the Two Witnesses and Armageddon.

Everything else is "made up" and inserted into the 7 years to help "prop up" the 'pre-trib' rapture idea.

In truth, there is no separate 'dispensation' - the current 'dispensation' does/will not end until the Second Coming of Christ.

God's dealing with Israel is simply part of the current 'dispensation' - at the very end of it - as it transitions into the Millennium.

Hello! I think the purpose for those who go through the Tribulation is to bring them to God. Israel will turn to their Messiah in that dark day because they will have no-one else to turn to and all Israel will be saved. 'Tribulation saints' are saved in those dark days when they repent and turn to God. For the church, those who have already turned to God, what purpose would it serve? God Bless You

Yes. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

'We who are still alive'. IMHO it must be talking about a pre-trib rapture. Those who refuse the mark of the beast will be killed. God Bless

Has the pre trib rapture belief alienated a whole group of people against each other


Actually conflict, strife, and division is often brought about by people whose primary mission on CC is to use anything they can get their hands on to accomplish the will of their Father, the Devil. Many differences can be discussed in a peaceful and loving way, yet some seem to want to distract from that.

The 'Pope' in particular - no. The 'Roman Empire' / 'Holy Roman Empire' / 'Roman Catholic Church' - yes.

I believe the 42 months in Revelation 13:5 is referring to the time frame of 538-1798 when the HRE/RCC "ruled the earth" and persecuted the saints.

2 Peter 3:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

What you may not realize yet is that the 'Church' is the 'Tribulation Saints'.

Do you think that seeing the most amazing Christian martyrdom imaginable - millions/billions refusing to worship the beast - would make an impression upon Israel as the Two Witnesses arrive on the scene to show them that Jesus was indeed their Messiah and that Christianity is truly in Him?

I shall be rejoicing that my merciful and gracious Lord has given them a second chance to escape eternal damnation in hellfire for the rest of eternity. That is the big picture.

The 'Church' had 'tribulation saints' back in the Dark Ages ("souls under the altar") and will have 'tribulation saints' in the future ("that should be killed as they were").

We will have to rephrase and call them "7-Year-Trib Saints" then.

Whoops, I must be a 44-yr trib saint in The Body Of Christ, eh? Thanks be to
God for His Answer to:

Will The Body Of Christ go through the Great Tribulation?

Because of His:

Great Grace {Mystery} Departure

Amen.

Could you kindly show us where in Scripture THE ENTIRE CHURCH IS BEHEADED? Because that is what happens to the Tribulation saints. Of course since there is no such Scripture, it means that you would rather cling to your false ideas than abandon them for the truth. We need to note that people with false beliefs never give them up. They are more "precious" than the truth. Which is rather perverse, but that's the way it is.

Thank you for taking the time to post to me. I will give what you said some thought. I’m bowing out of the forums - life has been taking me elsewhere helping my sick neighbor and now my own mom has Covid - it’s not a bad case but bad enough to be pretty concerned. May God bless and keep you and give you that wonderful peace. -Andi

What about the millennium in Rev20?

Hi

Perhaps the same purpose the millions of martyrs (witnesses) that have gone before us have served.

"manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God" 2 Thess 1:5

The Church and The Holy Spirit are saying "Come Lord Jesus!"
She is praying during the time of tribulation; Rev 8: 3-4, Her prayers urge The Lord to vengeance.
It's impossible to shoehorn a secret pre-second coming gathering into the latter days without contradicting Paul.



2 Thess 1 (NKJV)

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

“It's impossible to shoehorn a secret pre-second coming gathering into the latter days without contradicting Paul.”

amen or anyone else

“confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭14:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We’re in this situation now

people that have lived and believed and died along the way are here

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

( but those alive in tbe world now and those born now and after are in this boat in the earth )


Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s why Peter is explaining about the devil goin about persecuting them

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.””

as believers in Jesus die they are entering into the heavenly kingdom after they go through the world and it’s tribulation and then eventually they died being believers of the gospel

“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in Gods creation heaven is celebrating the victory Jesus won at Calvary and believers are with him having overcome the world through faith they went through the tribulation of a world where Satan is at war with mankind but they kept faith and entered into salvation as promised

this os current but also what’s happening in earth is current we have an enemy and this world holds much tribulation and suffering for good and decent people often times the bi le teaches us that if we’re going through the worst trouble ever and it’s unfair , keep the faith because of Jesus

“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The beast who looks like a lamb but who speaks like a dragon is the false prophet. He is Jewish.

This is my understanding.

He may well be a future leader of Israel [soon to be] imho he it is who causes all the Jews to return. He is who makes the pact with the Beast.

When the Beast reneges the false prophet [in my understanding] will lead the revolt against him in Jerusalem in defence of the temple and will be killed in so doing.

How long are we going to be in the times of the gentiles?

Hello! Thank you for your reply. Although there will be some persecution of believers in the Great Tribulation the distinction between it and what you're describing is the wrath of God. During the Tribulation the wrath of God will fall on an unbelieving, rebellious world, people will be punished for their unbelief.

Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Everyone on earth tries to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. Why would believers try to hide from the wrath of the Lamb?

They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thessalonians 1:10)
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

Everyone on earth suffers the wrath of God, but believers will not suffer the wrath of God.

God Bless