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I am not subverting anything. The problem is a lack of understanding on your part. It is silly to form doctrine from one verse of scripture. I have agreed with you over and over: OF COURSE He is coming after the trib. But where is He before that? He is in heaven at the marriage and supper. This...

And Paul tells us of another coming, a coming before God's wrath begins. Go and look: don''t take my word for it: Wrath starts with the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal. This is even before the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments, MUCH LESS after the days of GT. You are forming...

No, it does not say that. It may be how you are reading it, but it does not say what you think it does. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall...

"Judge not lest ye be judged." We are not here to judge others and declare they are lying or following the devil or are under a curse or anything else. We are brothers in the Lord and should reflect this in our messages. With that said, we all should agree that the rapture CANNOT POSSIBLY be...

According to John's timeline, the marriage and supper are NOT "pretrib." God must wait for the resurrection of the Old Testament saints which will happen on the last 24 hour day of "the trib." that is why the 70th week ends in chapter 16, but the marriage and supper are in chapter 19. of course...

For those that care, many people call Daniel's 70th week or the time of Jacob's trouble as "the tribulation." This 7 year period of time will begin in Revelation at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. The entire 70th week will come with God's wrath. In Revelation the 70th week -...

I agree, the 144,000 will begin where the church on earth ends: the great crowd seen in heaven (raptured church) is in the same chapter as the 144,000 being sealed. Both are events that God MUST see accomplished before the 70th week can start. Then the Two Witnesses will begin near the...

I agree. Well said.

Why did you say, "after Rev. 4" That is the start of John's vision of the throne room - it happened around 95 AD or perhaps sooner. That event had very little to do with the church until after Revelation was written so people could read it. The church is still alive and well on earth at the 5th...

One thing is certain in my mind: if the rapture is when Jesus descends as in Rev. 19, then the church will miss the marriage and supper. John places these events before Jesus descends. I refuse to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory. Rather, I form theory from Revelation as written. People have...

Slow down! I don't think either one of us is "lying" or trying to deceive the other. What we have here is a simple disagreement on what the bible says. Christ the LORD says: "Immediately after the Tribulation.....you will see the Son of Man Coming" - is that clear to you??? Of course He is...

I could write something similar: "The lie of post-trib escalates like a avalanche, to smother those under, it with a blanket of many lies." Does writing such nonsense make you feel better? Truly, it solves nothing. "Are you ready to allow the LORD to circumcise your heart from the many lies...

OF COURSE He is coming after the tribulation of those days: it is HIS WORD. We could say it is written in stone. It will certainly happen. But His coming as shown in Revelation 19 and Matthew 24 cannot and does not prove that He will not come 7 years previous FOR His church. Study 1 and 2 Thes...

WHO (to what people group) is the Olivet Discourse directed to? Were Gentile Christians taken to a synagogue to be beating? NO! JEWISH Christians perhaps were taken to a synagogue. Is the 70th week of Daniel for Gentiles? NO! Daniel is clear, it is for HIS people, the Jews and by extension, all...

No, what you wrote is what you THINK Paul wrote.

I disagree that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. I believe it is after both the rapture of the church and the resurrection of the Old Testament saints both. When Jesus comes as shown in Revelation 19, heaven is emptied: all the saints come WITH Him. All the saints will...

True. So why did you write "1 Thess & 2 Thess clearly states there is no pre-trib rapture " That is only your opinion.

Perhaps you can show us where Christ says "I will come for My Elect/Body/Saints/Overcomers AFTER the Tribulation" You know there is no direct and clear scripture where God declares the timing of His coming. That is why there is so much disagreement. However, that being said, God has told us...

Can you prove by scripture that the great crowd too large to number cannot be the just raptured church? John's descripture fits the church. The timing agrees with Paul's timing. Can you prove with scripture that the 70th week does NOT start with the first trumpet judgment? There are many hints...

God said His Resurrection will take place after the Great Tribulation and not a day before. Which resurrection? Certainly the timing of the "Second Death" resurrection will be after the tribulation of those days. Certainly the timing of the resurrection of the beheaded during those days of...