BEWARE the Lawkeepers

[RedTent]

An Armstrongite is one who follows the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. I used to be one of them. He apparently belongs to one of the splinter groups that descended from them. He made some unsolicited remarks about my testimony concerning leaving them after coming to a better understanding of God's grace.

As I've mentioned to you I have no problem with Sabbath keepers if they don't hold that non Sabbath keepers are still in their sins and unbelievers.

Here's some of the heretical teachings associated with Armstrong's followers:

I have deleted a lot of this lengthy rant against a Christian to save space.

If this post is an effort to say that anytime a Christian has a false idea of God, then everything about them is false? If that is the purpose of this post, then you are asking us to discount everything you say.

 

[Scuba]

"17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19

I find verse 19 very interesting. Those who teach things such as, the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday or Sunday is the Lord's day, without having a full understanding of the will of God and the work of the Beast won't be banned from the kingdom, they will only be least in the kingdom. The reason for this is because they have Jesus and are sincere in believing and teaching what they have been taught. They don't know any better and we know that God only holds people accountable to what the know and understand. God knows that if the truth was presented to them, they would have repented in a flash. That's why I'm afraid for those who have been shown the light and yet they still refuse it. They still hold on to, Sunday is the Lord's day, without one single verse that that says Sunday is the Lord's day. How can God over look this when the Bible is loaded with verses in the Bible that say the seventh day Sabbath is the Lord's day. Jesus Himself plainly says He is Lord of the Sabbath. This will be hard to hide in the day of God's judgement.

 

[just-me]

Long thread ain't it?? There will be no agreement due to lack of taking responsibility. That's why in this day and age the love of many are waxing cold despite the warm fuzziness. The instructions on how to love God's way is defined first in the law. To many the law doesn't have any part in the instruction of righteousness.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Jesus!

Beware of those who follow Jesus because they walk as Jesus walked, even if it is with a limp.

Of course Jesus was the perfect law keeper, Im talking about the people.

 

[chubbena]

Of course Jesus was the perfect law keeper, Im talking about the people.

And beware, Paul said "I can do anything through Him who gives me strength."

 

[Scuba]

Of course Jesus was the perfect law keeper, Im talking about the people.

God doesn't expect us to keep the Law perfectly in our fleshly bodies that's why He made a new covenant. If He thought we could obey Him perfectly He would not have put 1 John 1:9 in the Bible. If we are walking and abiding in Christ God does see us a perfect even if we're stumbling in our walk.

 

[just-me]

God doesn't expect us to keep the Law perfectly in our fleshly bodies that's why He made a new covenant. If He thought we could obey Him perfectly He would not have put 1 John 1:9 in the Bible. If we are walking and abiding in Christ God does see us a perfect even if we're stumbling in our walk.

Amen brother. That's also why He had the temple of the old covenant built for sacrifice. It shows His undying love, compassion, and grace. He has always provided a way for escape.

 

[BradC]

God doesn't expect us to keep the Law perfectly in our fleshly bodies that's why He made a new covenant. If He thought we could obey Him perfectly He would not have put 1 John 1:9 in the Bible. If we are walking and abiding in Christ God does see us a perfect even if we're stumbling in our walk.

Keeping the law and walking by faith are not the same. To keep the law I must conform to what it says through the flesh but to walk by faith I allow the Spirit to lead me in the way of righteousness through the word without any striving to keep the law. The keeping of the Sabbath was part of the law of commandments and it could be transgressed and to do so you received the just penalty as a a transgressor. If you keep the Sabbath today you are keeping it under the dictates of the law and not under grace, for if you violate the Sabbath in any way that would be a transgression unto you.

 

[BlackPlatypus]

Long thread ain't it?? There will be no agreement due to lack of taking responsibility. That's why in this day and age the love of many are waxing cold despite the warm fuzziness. The instructions on how to love God's way is defined first in the law. To many the law doesn't have any part in the instruction of righteousness.

Yes, but Jesus knew those type would appear. And even teach. They are the lesson, that challenge, to recognize and avoid the fork in the road of righteousness. Their fork isn't going where they'd hoped.

Hold them in your prayers that they turn around while there's still time.

(*We really need a prayer smiley as an option in the smiley toolbar here. Hint, hint, maaajor hintingness there. )

 

[Scuba]

Keeping the law and walking by faith are not the same. To keep the law I must conform to what it says through the flesh but to walk by faith I allow the Spirit to lead me in the way of righteousness through the word without any striving to keep the law. The keeping of the Sabbath was part of the law of commandments and it could be transgressed and to do so you received the just penalty as a a transgressor. If you keep the Sabbath today you are keeping it under the dictates of the law and not under grace, for if you violate the Sabbath in any way that would be a transgression unto you.

If I violate the Sabbath I would be a transgressor? So what I should do is do away with the Sabbath so I won't have to obey it? Can we do the same with adultery and stealing? I find the Sabbath to be a blessing since Jesus corrected all the man made rules of the Pharisees. Our rest in Christ, from our struggle to be made righteous in the eyes of God, is carried over to Sabbath observance. I don't keep the Sabbath in order to be made righteous in the eyes of God, I am righteous in the eyes of God and those who are righteous will practice righteousness.

When we are conformed to the image of Christ we will act just like Him and we know He is righteous so we too will practice righteousness.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Only those who are of the devil don't practice righteousness.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Practicing righteousness is a birth thing, not a works thing.

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Righteousness is defined by God through His Law.

 

[JaumeJ]

Here, found within the law, is something to consider.


Deu 18:18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Do not serve Jesus Christ in word only, obedience should be a joy, that is obedience to our new Master and Salvation.


Deu 18:19
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

 

[crossnote]

Our obedience, our love is birthed from Calvary at the Cross, not Mount Sinai.

For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(Heb 12:18-24)

 

[JaumeJ]

I would say with reason that to hearken is to obey or to take heed, the same, and the Prophet foretold is our Salvation, Jesus Christ.

Here, found within the law, is something to consider.


Deu 18:18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Do not serve Jesus Christ in word only, obedience should be a joy, that is obedience to our new Master and Salvation.


Deu 18:19
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

 

[BradC]

If I violate the Sabbath I would be a transgressor? So what I should do is do away with the Sabbath so I won't have to obey it? Can we do the same with adultery and stealing? I find the Sabbath to be a blessing since Jesus corrected all the man made rules of the Pharisees. Our rest in Christ, from our struggle to be made righteous in the eyes of God, is carried over to Sabbath observance. I don't keep the Sabbath in order to be made righteous in the eyes of God, I am righteous in the eyes of God and those who are righteous will practice righteousness.

When we are conformed to the image of Christ we will act just like Him and we know He is righteous so we too will practice righteousness.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Only those who are of the devil don't practice righteousness.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Practicing righteousness is a birth thing, not a works thing.

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Righteousness is defined by God through His Law.

Try this on and see if you can do this by keeping the law or for that matter the Sabbath.

Eph 4:17-32

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Do you for one minute think that (v.22-24) is speaking about keeping the law? Do we put off the old man and put on the new man, which is created in righteousness and true holiness, by keeping the law or by being led by the Spirit? And concerning the rest of the chapter, do we put away lying according to the law or by faith through the Spirit? Do we stop stealing by keeping the law or do we work with our hands the thing which is good? Do we let no communication proceed out of our mouth by keeping the law or by receiving grace through the Spirit that we might edify one another? Do we grieve not the Spirit whereby we are sealed by keeping the law or do we grieve not the Spirit by being lead and walking in the Spirit by faith through the promises of God? Do we put away all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, evil speaking and all malice by keeping the law of Moses or by faith because the old man has been crucified with Christ and we have the Spirit being made new creatures in Christ? Are we kind, tenderhearted and do we forgive one another according to the law or because God has forgiven us through Christ and we have His Spirit dwelling in us?

You and others will deal with this passage of scripture in some abstract way and pervert it by inducting the law into it when it has nothing to do with keeping the law. It is all the law of faith because of Christ and the cross and it is all according to the finished work of Christ and it is all for the NT believer who is under grace and not the law, who are new creatures in Christ with a new testament and new covenant that is better than the old and has excelled the old and made it vanish away because of the glory and ministration of the Spirit. You are demonstrating nothing more than a NT believer who is practicing putting new wine in old wine skins and trying to sow a new patch on an old garment and it will only serve to make things worse, taking away from the old and preserving neither. By being adherents in keeping the old law you are taking away from the new. The new Sabbath for the NT believer, for both Jew and Gentile, is resting in Christ and not in a day, by resting in the Creator who had made us new creatures in Him. Our Sabbath rest is a continual rest that has been made for the people of God and we enter into that rest through faith in the finished work and a labor of love rooted in that finished work.

 

[Scuba]

Try this on and see if you can do this by keeping the law or for that matter the Sabbath.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And who is that new man that we put on?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And what will we do when we put Christ on?

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

So when we have Christ on we are righteous and those who are righteous will practice righteousness. Pretty amazing don't you think? Oh yeah, your God has no power to save nor does He have power to change people. You need to come over and meet my God. My God can do all things and desires to do all things in those who believe. Do you believe?

 

[cfultz3]

And who is that new man that we put on?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And what will we do when we put Christ on?
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

So when we have Christ on we are righteous and those who are righteous will practice righteousness. Pretty amazing don't you think?

You had me until:

Oh yeah, your God has no power to save nor does He have power to change people. You need to come over and meet my God. My God can do all things and desires to do all things in those who believe. Do you believe?

Because his understanding is only obtained through half of the written Scripture (that it seems), he worships a different god than you?

Where is the love in telling another his god is false when it is evident He worships the God whose Son is Jesus?

Your words here are no better then the one who claims Christ's Law of Love. And yet, nothing but degrading harm (evil) comes from that person's mouth.

 

[Scuba]

You had me until:



Because his understanding is only obtained through half of the written Scripture (that it seems), he worships a different god than you?

Where is the love in telling another his god is false when it is evident He worships the God whose Son is Jesus?

Your words here are no better then the one who claims Christ's Law of Love. And yet, nothing but degrading harm (evil) comes from that person's mouth.

You're right.

It was not meant to be mean only that because he does not think God can bring people to obey Him then his God is different than the God that can.

Anyway I apologize since is did sound off beat.

 

[cfultz3]

I ask of you to please bear with me, my Brother of the same Lord,

You're right.

It was not meant to be mean only that because he does not think God can bring people to obey Him then his understanding of God is different than what is spoken about the God that can.

Anyway I apologize since is did sound off beat.

See, my brother, no condemnation for condemnation. Love turns the other cheek....

Thank you for hearing the heed....

 

[Billyd]

"17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19

Verse 17 says that Jesus came not to destroy but to fulfill the Law. That's simple and straight forward.

Read verse 18. It begins by saying that this verse is very important. Then it goes on to say that not one thing will be changed in the Law until Heaven and Earth pass away. In short, he did not make a single change to the Law. Then Jesus adds the key "Till all be fulfilled". With the crucifixion, all of the Mosaic Law was fulfilled. Combining verse 17 and 18, Mosaic Law (not the commandments) was finished.

To clarify verse 18, Jesus added verse 19. The one who breaks, and teaches others to break, one of the commandments, will be called the "least" in the Kingdom of Heaven, not prevented from entering. The one who keeps and teaches others to keep the commandments, will be greatest. Please note the change. Jesus moves from the Law to the Commandments.

No longer is Mosaic Law keeping a requirement to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We are no longer bound by the Mosaic Law of Leviticus.

We can argue whether the Sabbath should must be observed on Saturday, Sunday or any other day. I don't believe that God told us any thing other the seventh day and keep it holy. If you keep every seventh day holy, I believe regardless of the day of the Roman week we observe it on, God will honor it.

There is only one thing that Jesus requires for eternal life. "We must believe (not think we believe, conditionally believe, say that we believe, or acknowledge that he exist) in Him."

 

[RedTent]

Funny you should say this.

This is what God said,

Cursed is everyone who does not confirm ALL the words of this law and obey them. Of course he said this after he gave the law to moses, and demanded everyone agree to this. And paul reiterated this in romans and galations

Thou shalt not covet is a command, It convicts you as guilty if you break it. And proves you are a sinner and in need of Christ.

what it does not do is tell you what it means not to covet, What all forms of coveting are (what constitutes every act which would be considered coveting) and how not to covet.

Of course the law of love does. If you love God and your neighbor. and you are acting out that love in faith. You would never break the law which says," do not covet"

Yep. And paul made it clear who is taking it out of application. Everyone who, after the schoolmaster has done its job, continues to try to be bound to it.

which would include many people in this room, especially all the ones who liked this comment you just made.

I grew up under the law. I know it quite well. I spent over 20 years doing all I could to apply the law to my life. and of course kept failing. I could not understand why, Until I finally found the true purpose of the law. Then my life changed, and If you looked at my life since I figured out what God really wanted, and compared it to when I was trying my best to obey the law. You would so I am more of a law keeper today than I was at any time in my 20 years.

in fact. Growing up in many different churches and spending 14 years in the military traveling to many of the same types of churches in many different states. And all the people I met and had fellowship with. I would put any of them against the people I know who worry more about doing the work of God and living out love then following the law and KNOW that the ones who I fellowship with now are better law keepers than the ones who spent 24/7 doing all they could to obey the law.

Not because the ones I grew up with did not try or did not want to do it. It is just they did not know how. Because they misapplied the law. And could never figure out who to really fulfill the law of Christ.

All those preaching against the Holy law of God, using even the words of scripture, are preaching against God himself.

It is using scripture, even, to condemn scripture. "Curse of the law" "The law kills" And reading this, not to tell Christ gives salvation from sin, but it is to say that even with the forgiveness of Christ, it is the law itself that kills. Even using 2 Cor. 3 speaking against people trying to obey the law by the letter of the law to condemn all law! Using scriptures given us to teach us to rely only on Christ and grace for salvation, not to rely on our obedience for that. Using scriptures that teach us to listen to the Lord in spirit and truth, not only legalistically to say that God wants us to not listen to the law. There are even posts bragging about how well they keep the law to say it is against keeping the law because they don't read it in scripture. Posters are even using the love that is the essence of all law to condemn the law explaining love.

You cannot separate God and the law, the law is part of God. These posts that use any means they can come up with to destroy the law are posts against the Lord.