Cain's Offering

[Dino246]

The Bible teaches Cain is a atheist as in no faith that comes from hearing God. Cain wanted it his way not believing in a God not seen .

Iincorrect; an atheist is someone who doesn't believe that God exists. Cain knew very well that God exists. A person who does not have faith in God is faithless, not an atheist.

A person cannot believe in God a little .

Where is that in Scripture?

Atheism represents all the pagan religions of the world in respect to the imaginations of ones heart.

No it doesn't. Hindus, Sikhs, JWs, Mormons and Moslems all believe in the existence of "gods" which means that they are NOT atheists. There are many religious systems that are atheistic, but many are not.

Claiming not to be a atheist does not cause one to be born again.

True; they are distinct concepts, but neither is the subject of the thread.

Just as was Abel offering the work of his hands as in self edification until he heard the voice.. . "keep bringing what you have been it is what required".

What does Abel's offering have to do with self-edification (as you use the term)?

 

[Dino246]

All men are born atheists.

Atheism is the active belief that there is no God. People are not born with such a belief; they are taught it.

 

[TLC209]

Iincorrect; an atheist is someone who doesn't believe that God exists. Cain knew very well that God exists. A person who does not have faith in God is faithless, not an atheist.


Where is that in Scripture?


No it doesn't. Hindus, Sikhs, JWs, Mormons and Moslems all believe in the existence of "gods" which means that they are NOT atheists. There are many religious systems that are atheistic, but many are not.


True; they are distinct concepts, but neither is the subject of the thread.


What does Abel's offering have to do with self-edification (as you use the term)?

I agree. An Atheist is someone who denies God exists. They believe in the big bang, the universe, and the planet as well as evolution. (Maybe even aliens??)

Cain knew the Lord. So is the devil an Atheist as well? Using this logic Garee is using? Thats absurd. Cmon lets not make up theories that dont line up with scripture. Cain is not an atheist. He is a reprobate.

Seems like people want to categorize Cain as something far removed from themselves when in reality people need to do self examination. Many here are reprobates as well. Cain being an atheist is an easy way diferentiate Cain from ourselves because no one here is an atheist... as the referee would say "SAFE!!" But no gentlemen Cain knew God and spoke to God and brought his offering and was rejected. Reprobate not atheist. Sorry.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

How do u know it was a sin offering? And who kills their brother because they gave a better gift? Theres a level of hatred or a level of COLDNESS meaning NO LOVE. You dont just kill your brother. He clearly didnt like his brother and God knew..

I see the offerings brought by Cain and Abel in Gen 4:3-4 as offerings in which God gave both Cain and Abel instruction -

Genesis 4:

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.


The reason I believe God gave instruction to Cain and Abel about these offerings is because:

The offerings were made in process of time (Gen 4:3) which means "at the proper time". In order for there to be a "proper time", there had to be instruction as to what was the "proper time" to bring the offering. I do not believe these are sin offerings.

We know that Abel brought his offering through faith (Heb 11:4). Because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17), Abel must have heard the Word of God. Both Cain and Abel heard the Word of God, but only Abel's hearing resulted in faith. Cain rejected God's Word and had no faith. His offering was made through his own vanity.

When Cain saw that God had respect to Abel and to his offering, and God did not have respect to Cain and his offering, Cain became very wroth and his countenance fell (Gen 4:5). Cain thought he had followed the instruction God had given to him. However, we know he did not because if he had, God would have had respect to Cain and to his offering.

God knew that Cain was angry and tried to get Cain to repent. God told Cain that he would be accepted if he did well. In Gen 4:7, I believe the word "sin" actually should be "sin offering". The Hebrew word is chatta'ath and many times the word is translated "sin offering" (see Ex 29:14, 29:36, 30:10; Lev 4:3 (2nd usage), 4:8, 4:20, 4:21, 4:24, 4:25, and many more times).

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, chatta'ath lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

I believe the meaning of the verse is God is giving Cain instruction that there is a sin offering Cain can make. The sin offering is crouching at the door and Cain has dominion over the sin offering.


Cain became very angry over this and rather than humble himself before God, acknowledge his error, and repent, Cain focused his anger and bitterness on his brother, Abel, and killed him.

 

[TLC209]

I see the offerings brought by Cain and Abel in Gen 4:3-4 as offerings in which God gave both Cain and Abel instruction -

Genesis 4:

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.


The reason I believe God gave instruction to Cain and Abel about these offerings is because:

The offerings were made in process of time (Gen 4:3) which means "at the proper time". In order for there to be a "proper time", there had to be instruction as to what was the "proper time" to bring the offering. I do not believe these are sin offerings.

We know that Abel brought his offering through faith (Heb 11:4). Because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17), Abel must have heard the Word of God. Both Cain and Abel heard the Word of God, but only Abel's hearing resulted in faith. Cain rejected God's Word and had no faith. His offering was made through his own vanity.

When Cain saw that God had respect to Abel and to his offering, and God did not have respect to Cain and his offering, Cain became very wroth and his countenance fell (Gen 4:5). Cain thought he had followed the instruction God had given to him. However, we know he did not because if he had, God would have had respect to Cain and to his offering.

God knew that Cain was angry and tried to get Cain to repent. God told Cain that he would be accepted if he did well. In Gen 4:7, I believe the word "sin" actually should be "sin offering". The Hebrew word is chatta'ath and many times the word is translated "sin offering" (see Ex 29:14, 29:36, 30:10; Lev 4:3 (2nd usage), 4:8, 4:20, 4:21, 4:24, 4:25, and many more times).

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, chatta'ath lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

I believe the meaning of the verse is God is giving Cain instruction that there is a sin offering Cain can make. The sin offering is crouching at the door and Cain has dominion over the sin offering.


Cain became very angry over this and rather than humble himself before God, acknowledge his error, and repent, Cain focused his anger and bitterness on his brother, Abel, and killed him.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing.3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.

Cain killed his brother. He did not love his brother. Out of these 2 brothers we can see one was righteous and had faith. If we have faith we therefore have love. Without love our faith means nothing. God said Abels offering was given with faith. So it must be true. Cain on the other hand was rejected. He was warned to do well or else sin was waiting at the door calling for him, desiring him. Cain gave in to sin.

James 1:12 God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. 13 And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. 14 Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

Matthew 15:16 “Don’t you understand yet?” Jesus asked. 17 “Anything you eat passes through the stomach and then goes into the sewer. 18 But the words you speak come from the heart—that’s what defiles you. 19 For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.20 These are what defile you. Eating with unwashed hands will never defile you.”

The last passage Jesus explained its not the food we eat that defiles us, but rather what comes from the heart that defiles us. Murder and all evil lie waiting at the door for those who refuse to do well.. It all starts in the heart, starts with a thought. If we give in to sin the consequences lead to death. Spiritual death as well as physical death.

Cain and Abels story is a reflection of 2 brother who knew the truth, knew God yet one of whom was rejected. For the evil that lurked in Cains heart towards his brother. If the story was flipped and Abel had offered his fruits to the Lord with love and thanksgiving Im sure Abel would not have been rejected. God sees the heart in our actions.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Cain and Abels story is a reflection of 2 brother who knew the truth, knew God yet one of whom was rejected. For the evil that lurked in Cains heart towards his brother.

Both Cain and Abel heard God's Word (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God - Rom 10:17).

Abel believed God and brought his offering in accordance with God's Word.

Cain rejected what he heard and brought his offering in accordance with his own vain reasoning.

Romans 1:18 tells us exactly what happened:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Cain suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. God's Word did not reach the heart of Cain (which is where God brings increase) to the end that Cain would bring his offering in faith.

Abel did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, God brought increase, and Abel brought his offering in faith. God had respect to Abel and to his offering.

Both heard ... one rejected ... one did not reject.

 

[49]

I see the offerings brought by Cain and Abel in Gen 4:3-4 as offerings in which God gave both Cain and Abel instruction -

Genesis 4:

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.


The reason I believe God gave instruction to Cain and Abel about these offerings is because:

The offerings were made in process of time (Gen 4:3) which means "at the proper time". In order for there to be a "proper time", there had to be instruction as to what was the "proper time" to bring the offering. I do not believe these are sin offerings.

We know that Abel brought his offering through faith (Heb 11:4). Because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17), Abel must have heard the Word of God. Both Cain and Abel heard the Word of God, but only Abel's hearing resulted in faith. Cain rejected God's Word and had no faith. His offering was made through his own vanity.

When Cain saw that God had respect to Abel and to his offering, and God did not have respect to Cain and his offering, Cain became very wroth and his countenance fell (Gen 4:5). Cain thought he had followed the instruction God had given to him. However, we know he did not because if he had, God would have had respect to Cain and to his offering.

God knew that Cain was angry and tried to get Cain to repent. God told Cain that he would be accepted if he did well. In Gen 4:7, I believe the word "sin" actually should be "sin offering". The Hebrew word is chatta'ath and many times the word is translated "sin offering" (see Ex 29:14, 29:36, 30:10; Lev 4:3 (2nd usage), 4:8, 4:20, 4:21, 4:24, 4:25, and many more times).

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, chatta'ath lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

I believe the meaning of the verse is God is giving Cain instruction that there is a sin offering Cain can make. The sin offering is crouching at the door and Cain has dominion over the sin offering.


Cain became very angry over this and rather than humble himself before God, acknowledge his error, and repent, Cain focused his anger and bitterness on his brother, Abel, and killed him.

Cain became very angry over this and rather than humble himself before God, acknowledge his error, and repent, Cain focused his anger and bitterness on his brother, Abel, and killed him.

Something to think on.

Thank you!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Another thing too: you think Cain was maybe lazy about it? Flippant? Like “eh I’ll just give God this.”

Then why was Cain angry as garee said?

 

[rodders2828]

Genesis 4: 1-7 (KJV)

1) And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. 2) And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3) And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. 4) And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5) But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6) And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Have three questions (for now) pertaining to this:

Why did God not have respect unto Cain and to his offering?

What sin was at the door, that Cain did not do well?

What did God mean when He said "and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"?

Do not see much to go on, unless it is explained later in scripture. Thanks in advance.

i haven't read through all the comments, so at risk of repeating someone else (which is unlikely), here is my take. Well, it is not my original idea, but I certainly have a strong tendency to agree with it. It goes like this..

Note, we will need a little license with translations, but bear with me (..and remember, the translators don't always get it right!).

Firstly, step back to the previous chapter where God is dealing with Adam and Eve's fall. Instead of the promised punishment of death, God introduces the first substitutionary sacrifice (ie. instead of Adam and Eve dying for their sin, an animal sacrifice was made instead). This is evidenced in Gen 3 where God replaced their clothing of fig leaves with garments of 'skin'. (Where do you think the skins came from?).

Next, let's look at Gen 4.3; Cain and Abel bring a sacrifice to the Lord, 'in the process of time'. It's an odd phrase and doesn't mean much, but some translations have "at the end of days". Is it possible then, this was an appointed day and not just some random act of goodwill? Could it be in the light of the animal sacrifice provided in the previous chapter that God had instituted it as an ongoing requirement and not just a once off? We cannot know, but let's roll with it..

Now, the 'sin' at the 'door'..
The Hebrew word for 'sin' is interchangeable with 'sin offering' (as is sometimes elsewhere translated).
The Hebrew word for 'door' means 'openinng' and is sometimes translated 'gate'.

And also, a few verses down (4.16) we read 'and Cain went out from the presence of the Lord'. Implying he was physically IN the presence of the Lord. Speaking face to face?

So then, putting all this together, is it possible Cain and Abel brought their sacrifice TO the entrance (gate) to Eden, IN the presence of the Lord. And God, rejecting his non-animal offering, told Cain that there was a ready 'sin offering' available right there, only he had to choose to take it. But Cain being of the evil one, chose to rebel against God and would NOT?

I know this is a little out of the box, but I do think it is quite a plausible scenario. Something to ponder at least.

 

[garee]

Yes but Cain knew there was a God, he talked with God, so saying Cain was a atheist doesn’t line up.
Cain spoke to the Lord he wasn’t an atheist

Gen 4
13But Cain said to the LORD, “My punishmentd is greater than I can bear.14Behold, this day You have driven me from the face of the earth, and from Your face I will be hidden; I will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

The Lord speaks to a unbelievers heart in the same way he speaks to one that does believe. Just as in Hebrews 6. Atheists are blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world coming ahead . But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone. In order to show his unbelief in a God not seen he murdered his brother who did have the faith needed to believe.. there is no limbo in between. Either ones believes exercising their new faithto the salvation of their souls or nothing changes... no faith, no God.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John3:18

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Instead of the promised punishment of death, God introduces the first substitutionary sacrifice (ie. instead of Adam and Eve dying for their sin, an animal sacrifice was made instead).

The punishment of death was experienced by Adam and Eve. Gen 2:17 states

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Heb. muth muth ... or dying you shall die).

In the day that Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they experienced death which resulted in their eventual physical death.

And, yes, at that point, God provided covering for their sin and promised there would be a Seed of the woman Who would crush the head of the serpent (satan, the devil) ... Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So then, putting all this together, is it possible Cain and Abel brought their sacrifice TO the entrance (gate) to Eden, IN the presence of the Lord. And God, rejecting his non-animal offering, told Cain that there was a ready 'sin offering' available right there, only he had to choose to take it. But Cain being of the evil one, chose to rebel against God and would NOT?

In agreement that "sin" in Gen 4:7 could be rendered "sin offering" and the offering was available to Cain. Cain could have repented ... but he turned from God, did not repent, and murdered his brother.

 

[JamOn]

The Lord speaks to a unbelievers heart in the same way he speaks to one that does believe. Just as in Hebrews 6. Atheists are blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world coming ahead . But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone. In order to show his unbelief in a God not seen he murdered his brother who did have the faith needed to believe.. there is no limbo in between. Either ones believes exercising their new faithto the salvation of their souls or nothing changes... no faith, no God.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John3:18

Cain did not show his unbelief by killing his brother. Cain was angry, mad, upset in a rage, your trying to twist in atheists and Cain.

Both brothers spoke with God and both believed in a God. it’s clear in scripture Cain believed there is a God.

 

[garee]

Iincorrect; an atheist is someone who doesn't believe that God exists. Cain knew very well that God exists. A person who does not have faith in God is faithless, not an atheist.

I see that a little differently .Yes faithless those with no God as our Faithfull Creator in their hearts.

Some might define it in the way you offered . (philosophical) and not what is the law of God or law of faith. The demons believe and shudder. Knowing the end of those who have no faith.

The gospel defines those who believe in one God, who alone reveals himself through his word, as it is written. Atheism is a religion under the god of this world the spirit of error

According to scripture and atheist is a unbeliever. Having no faith that comes by hearing God as it is written or called sola scriptura.

Many have a form and even use biblical characters as a law of the fathers .But in the end they prove to be a fool, No God in their hearts like those in Hebrews 6.

Not foolish as a believer when they deny Him in unbelief. There is no limbo stuck between atheist and Christianity.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

 

[Dino246]

I see that a little differently .Yes faithless those with no God as our Faithfull Creator in their hearts.

The definition of the word is not a matter of "seeing that a little differently". You are using the wrong word. It's as simple as that. If you use the wrong word, your statements are not truth.

According to scripture and atheist is a unbeliever.

No it is not. The word "atheist" does not appear in Scripture, so there is no "according to Scripture" on the matter.

There is no limbo stuck between atheist and Christianity.

You are incorrect on this matter. Please stop being stubbornly unteachable.

 

[garee]

Cain did not show his unbelief by killing his brother. Cain was angry, mad, upset in a rage, your trying to twist in atheists and Cain.

Both brothers spoke with God and both believed in a God. it’s clear in scripture Cain believed there is a God.

A god or the God?

Just as those in Hebrews 6 that tasted the power of the age to come and fell away having no faith. . not mixing faith in what they did hear therefore no gospel .Or the demons that believe God that not subject to salvation. Natural man that believe in the imagination of their own hearts..

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 4:1-3

Natural man when angry with God who moves others in our life to build character naturally looks for fault in people seen . Wrestling against flesh and blood against flesh and blood.

Cain plowed his brother under the fruit of the field . . out of sight out of mind. No faith. . . the gift needed to believe God who did work in Abel. . freely giving him a new spirit and heart. But no mercy was given to Cain. He is identified a restless wanderer (no sabbath).There is no spirit of grace, the gospel working in him to give him rest.

Below I would offer what I would call given a valuable tool needed to lean how to mix faith called walking by faith. Cain could not see past the tip of his nose. The father does not draw and then change His mind.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[JamOn]

A god or the God?

Just as those in Hebrews 6 that tasted the power of the age to come and fell away having no faith. . not mixing faith in what they did hear therefore no gospel .Or the demons that believe God that not subject to salvation. Natural man that believe in the imagination of their own hearts..

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 4:1-3

Natural man when angry with God who moves others in our life to build character naturally looks for fault in people seen . Wrestling against flesh and blood against flesh and blood.

Cain plowed his brother under the fruit of the field . . out of sight out of mind. No faith. . . the gift needed to believe God who did work in Abel. . freely giving him a new spirit and heart. But no mercy was given to Cain. He is identified a restless wanderer (no sabbath).There is no spirit of grace, the gospel working in him to give him rest.

Below I would offer what I would call given a valuable tool needed to lean how to mix faith called walking by faith. Cain could not see past the tip of his nose. The father does not draw and then change His mind.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Abel was not transformed into a new spirit and heart, he was the same Abel crying out from the grave and God heard him. that is trying to mix the old and new test together, the Old Testament was judgements the new is salvation.

 

[garee]

The definition of the word is not a matter of "seeing that a little differently". You are using the wrong word. It's as simple as that. If you use the wrong word, your statements are not truth.


No it is not. The word "atheist" does not appear in Scripture, so there is no "according to Scripture" on the matter.


You are incorrect on this matter. Please stop being stubbornly unteachable.

It would seem you are using the wrong source of faith. The Bible defines the spiritual things of God.

What would be the word that describes no faith in the God of creation. A fool? Atheist ?

Please stop being stubbornly unteachable.

 

[garee]

Abel was not transformed into a new spirit and heart, he was the same Abel crying out from the grave and God heard him. that is trying to mix the old and new test together, the Old Testament was judgements the new is salvation.

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Abel's new born again spirit left his corrupted body . The body returned to the corrupted dust it was formed from (lifeless clay).

His new spirit enter the New Jerusalem as the bride of Christ. The first martyr to enter eternal rest. The judgment as to the work needed was performed from the foundation of the world. Its all one testament divided in two.

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[Dino246]

It would seem you are using the wrong source of faith. The Bible defines the spiritual things of God.

What would be the word that describes no faith in the God of creation. A fool? Atheist ?

Please stop being stubbornly unteachable.

Don’t be ridiculous. The meaning of the word is not a matter of faith, but of fact. You are simply incorrect.

 

[garee]

Don’t be ridiculous. The meaning of the word is not a matter of faith, but of fact. You are simply incorrect.

A matter of fact in respect to whose faith . A fool? Or the faith of Christ as it is written ? Law of faith or the philosophies of men? No limbo in between.