Do protestants have a reasonable non-Roman-Catholic explanation for John 20:22-23?

[Follower777]

Put in simple words: you are lost.

No ! I have Faith that I'm not lost ... ( = blessed assurance ) I Love, believe and follow my LORD Jesus.

What I experience of the Spirit, is specific to me.. and no one else ... as whether you do or don't, is with you as well.

If you are showing the "fruits of the Spirit" and are obeying the Will of God, then you will be known by your fruits, whether you have the rebellious nature of the lost, or whether you have the righteousness of Christ. If you have Jesus and His Righteousness, dwelling in you, Gal 2:20, then YOU won't be LOST, to Jesus. You will be found of Jesus and will be saved for eternity, UNLESS you reject the righteousness of Christ.. without repentance .. to be judged wanting of righteousness, to where we will be burned up at the soon appearance of our Lord Jesus, as the sin in us will BURN US UP for eternity.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Matt 7:22-23 .. ( ... work iniquity, = lawlessness = disobedience )

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor. 2:14-16

Simply obedience OR disobedience, Love or anti-Love, The Holy Spirit or the Antichrist spirit,.. this decision is up to YOU ..

Choose wisely, friend

 

[beechan]

No worries, bro: but perhaps there are more bad Protestants than than there are bad Catholics!

A little statistics for you:

Looking like Catholics are better people.
(Don't take the figures too seriously.)

 

[beechan]

No ! I have Faith that I'm not lost ... ( = blessed assurance ) I Love, believe and follow my LORD Jesus.

What I experience of the Spirit, is specific to me.. and no one else ... as whether you do or don't, is with you as well.

If you are showing the "fruits of the Spirit" and are obeying the Will of God, then you will be known by your fruits, whether you have the rebellious nature of the lost, or whether you have the righteousness of Christ. If you have Jesus and His Righteousness, dwelling in you, Gal 2:20, then YOU won't be LOST, to Jesus. You will be found of Jesus and will be saved for eternity, UNLESS you reject the righteousness of Christ.. without repentance .. to be judged wanting of righteousness, to where we will be burned up at the soon appearance of our Lord Jesus, as the sin in us will BURN US UP for eternity.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Matt 7:22-23 .. ( ... work iniquity, = lawlessness = disobedience )

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor. 2:14-16

Simply obedience OR disobedience, Love or anti-Love, The Holy Spirit or the Antichrist spirit,.. this decision is up to YOU ..

Choose wisely, friend

I don't see you throwing tons of bible verses have helped you explained anything.

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

A little statistics for you:
View attachment 281433
Looking like Catholics are better people.
(Don't take the figures too seriously.)

@beechan : Excellent stuff, bro! To tell you the truth, I'm actually not surprised: The Catholics I've known have been, generally speaking, more sincere in their Faith, than have a lot of Protestants that I've known, in their Faith!

Most of the Protestants that I went to college with, seemed to be proud Catholic "bashers": which in turn always made me feel a bit uncomfortable, even back then, when I was a young man!

 

[decipher]

Hearing of gospel and believe will have sins removed?
No even the need of baptise?

No need for water baptism. You get baptized in the name of the Father when the Father chooses you by filling you with repentance so that you turn to Him because of your sorrow of committing your sins. You get baptized in the name of the Son when your belief and trust in the Father's plan for the forgiveness of sins by believing in Jesus as our savior. Jesus then baptizes you in the name of the Holy Spirit by indwelling you with the Holy Spirit which acts as a portal through which both Father and Son can enter your being. They change your motivation for living from love of self first to love for God first and all others as you love yourself. The Church is not a denomination, or a building with people in it. The true Church consists of individuals who Get baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the head of His Church and we are connected to Jesus through the Holy Spirit. Since Jesus is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit, he is the temple of the Father because the Father resides in Jesus's being. Through the Holy Spirit we become one with the Father and Son. John 13: 33-35 Glorification occurs when a being receives the Holy Spirit who in Isaiah 63: 9-10 is referred to as " the angel of His presence", which means that where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. That is how Jesus is One with the Father, and we become One with both Father and Son. John 17: 21-23 When Jesus ascended into heaven to get glorified, he received from the Father a spiritual body called his Church which consists of all humans chosen by the Father and baptized by Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit so that both Father and Son can enter their beings. John 17: 3
Those that have eternal life know that the one true God is the Father and that Jesus was sent by Him.

 

[PaulThomson]

3. Authority to Forgive Sins
Matt 20: 23 grants the disciples the authority to “remit” (forgive) or “retain” (withhold) sins. This authority is rooted in the apostolic commission: they act as representatives of Christ, exercising His judgment on earth.

This authority is not a personal power but a delegated responsibility. The apostles “were given the right to bind and loose” because they stood in the place of the Savior. Their role was to proclaim forgiveness through faith in Christ, not to arbitrarily decide who is saved. The “retaining” of sins reflects the reality that those who reject the gospel remain under its condemnation, whereas those who accept it experience remission. (The Great Controversy (ch. 27)

There is nothing in John 20:23 indicating to me that Jesus was "giving authority" to the disciples to forgive sins committed against God. Elsewhere in scripture Jesus instructs His disciples that it is their duty to forgive sins against themselves, and warned them that there would be awful repercussions for disciples withholding forgiveness.

Hi Paul. In order to understand John 20: 22-23 you have to also include John 20: 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you; as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. In verse 22 Jesus breathes on them the Holy Spirit and they received understanding that Jesus lived, suffered death, and rose from the dead the third day. Luke 24: 45-46 In Luke 24: 47 Jesus tells his disciples And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. In John 20: 23 Jesus is telling his disciples that in their journey which they are sent, sins will be remitted and sins will be retained through their preaching. Only God can forgive sins. Mark 2: 7 In Mark 2: 5,10 Jesus is filled with the Holy Spirit (the Father's presence) and is given authority on earth to forgive sins. The Son is the temple of the Father, and it is the Father who speaks and acts through Jesus. It is the Father who forgives sins through Jesus.

The pharisees were spiritually blind. I don't take their opinion that only God can forgive sins (Mark 2: 7 ) as Holy Spirit prophecy, because Jesus commanded his disciples to forgive others, something the Pharisees were saying is not possible for men to do.

 

[PaulThomson]

3. Authority to Forgive Sins
Matt 20: 23 grants the disciples the authority to “remit” (forgive) or “retain” (withhold) sins. This authority is rooted in the apostolic commission: they act as representatives of Christ, exercising His judgment on earth.

This authority is not a personal power but a delegated responsibility. The apostles “were given the right to bind and loose” because they stood in the place of the Savior. Their role was to proclaim forgiveness through faith in Christ, not to arbitrarily decide who is saved. The “retaining” of sins reflects the reality that those who reject the gospel remain under its condemnation, whereas those who accept it experience remission. (The Great Controversy (ch. 27)

There is nothing in John 20:23 indicating to me that Jesus was "giving authority" to the disciples to forgive sins committed against God. Elsewhere in scripture Jesus instructs His disciples that it is their duty to forgive sins against themselves for which they had received an apology , and warned them that there would be awful repercussions for disciples withholding forgiveness from someone who had said sorry,. He also commands us to do the best we can to be at peace with all men before praying or giving an offering to God , taking our complaints about unforgiven offences to the person concerned privately, then with two or three others and then to the church to give the offender all possible opportunities to apologise, or to learn from others that I was the unreasonable one who should apologise.

 

[PaulThomson]

3. Authority to Forgive Sins
Matt 20: 23 grants the disciples the authority to “remit” (forgive) or “retain” (withhold) sins. This authority is rooted in the apostolic commission: they act as representatives of Christ, exercising His judgment on earth.

This authority is not a personal power but a delegated responsibility. The apostles “were given the right to bind and loose” because they stood in the place of the Savior. Their role was to proclaim forgiveness through faith in Christ, not to arbitrarily decide who is saved. The “retaining” of sins reflects the reality that those who reject the gospel remain under its condemnation, whereas those who accept it experience remission. (The Great Controversy (ch. 27)

There is nothing in John 20:23 indicating to me that Jesus was "giving authority" to the disciples to forgive sins committed against God. Elsewhere in scripture Jesus instructs His disciples that it is their duty to forgive sins against themselves, and warned them that there would be awful repercussions for disciples withholding forgiveness.

We have over 40000 christian denominations globally. Many of those are Protestant denominations. Jesus is the head of which church?

Is the church a building? or an international sect that believes a specific sample of detailed dogma drawn from a smorgasbord of differing interpretations of Bible texts? or the community world-wide of believers in Jesus Christ who have set their hearts to follow Him as mankind's Saviour and their Lord?

 

[beechan]

There is nothing in John 20:23 indicating to me that Jesus was "giving authority" to the disciples to forgive sins committed against God. Elsewhere in scripture Jesus instructs His disciples that it is their duty to forgive sins against themselves, and warned them that there would be awful repercussions for disciples withholding forgiveness.

Is the church a building? or an international sect that believes a specific sample of detailed dogma drawn from a smorgasbord of differing interpretations of Bible texts? or the community world-wide of believers in Jesus Christ who have set their hearts to follow Him as mankind's Saviour and their Lord?

You tell us what you think. Then I'll tell you mine.

 

[studier]

It is you who raised up the statement:
2 Timothy 3:16, ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.



I am happy to go deeper to this with you.
The whole verse written in Greek has 13 words:
"Pasa graphe theopneustos kai ophelimos pros didaskalian pros elegchen pros epanorthosin pros paideian ten en dikaiosune." (2 Timothy 3:16 TR)



A word by word translation to English is

1) "pasa" is AN ADJECTIVE which means either "all" or "every", depending on context;
2) "graphe" is A NOUN which means "writing";
3) "theopneustos" is AN ADJECTIVE which means "God-breathed";
4) "kai" is A CONJUNCTION which means "and";
5) "ophelimos" is AN ADJECTIVE which means "profitable";
6) "pros" is A PREPOSITION which means "unto, with, for", etc.;
7) "didaskalian" is A NOUN which means "teaching, learning, doctrine";
8) "elegchen" is A NOUN which means "convincing evidence or reproof";
9) "epanorthosin" is A NOUN which means "correction";
10) "paideian" is A NOUN which means "chastening, instruction";
11) "ten" is THE DEFINITE ARTICLE meaning "the";
12) "en" is A PREPOSITION meaning "in";
13) "dikaiosune" is A NOUN which means "righteousness".



"Every (or all?) writing God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for convincing evidence, for correction, for chastening (or instruction) in the righteousness."

One point about 2 Timothy 3:16 that should immediately attract our attention is that THE GREEK TEXT OF THIS VERSE DOES NOT CONTAIN A SINGLE VERB!

This does not make sense in English.



Translator added in a verb 'is':

"Every (or all?) writing is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for convincing evidence, for correction, for chastening (or instruction) in the righteousness."

It looks good now!



However, the meaning in twisted.

"Every (or all?) writing God-breathed and profitable for teaching,...
'writing God-breathed' which is an adjective phrase now becomes an object.


All scripture is inspired by God: this could possibly also be translated, “All scripture inspired by God is useful for….”

That means scriptures contain words breathed by GOD, but not every word is God-breathed.

I responded to your excerpts from 2Tim3:16.

Unless you're Mr. Nelte, when you copy and paste from an article (linked here) as it seems you've done here and maybe in one other place I noticed, you should reference it. I've read it and thought he did quite a job articulating his view.

I actually have no current issue with this verse not meaning what Protestantism has made of it. Nor do I think it supports the Roman denomination.

 

[PaulThomson]

If ayone is clergy, you don't really have to go to a church.
You worship at home will do.
See how your church pastor would react to this suggestion with his long face.

We goto an assembly to edify one another by sharing with one another what has edified us from the Lord. The church is a community of very diverse people fellowshipping together in loving relationship because of Jesus. You can't have all that church provides by staying at home on your own with Jesus. You need to meet with at least two or three to gain the full benefits of belonging to the body of Christ.

 

[PaulThomson]

You tell us what you think. Then I'll tell you mine.

The church is the community world-wide of believers in Jesus Christ who have set their hearts to follow Him as mankind's Saviour and their Lord?

 

[decipher]

There is nothing in John 20:23 indicating to me that Jesus was "giving authority" to the disciples to forgive sins committed against God. Elsewhere in scripture Jesus instructs His disciples that it is their duty to forgive sins against themselves, and warned them that there would be awful repercussions for disciples withholding forgiveness.


The pharisees were spiritually blind. I don't take their opinion that only God can forgive sins (Mark 2: 7 ) as Holy Spirit prophecy, because Jesus commanded his disciples to forgive others, something the Pharisees were saying is not possible for men to do.

We goto an assembly to edify one another by sharing with one another what has edified us from the Lord. The church is a community of very diverse people fellowshipping together in loving relationship because of Jesus. You can't have all that church provides by staying at home on your own with Jesus. You need to meet with at least two or three to gain the full benefits of belonging to the body of Christ.

Paul Thomson, you posted: You can't have all that church provides by staying at home on your own with Jesus. I agree with that 100%. However, a true Christian would not be staying at home and be unproductive. He would worship and would be in constant communication with both Father and Son through the Holy Spirit. A true Christian would be so full of love that he/she would be driven to help others understand what he has learned during his daily life, and communicate it using different means. Concerning those that run churches and get paid for it for personal use, I personally would caution them that the bible says that they have already received their just reward. Many on this site might not be aware that there are churches where every member has a job or profession outside of church to help support their family. All church activities are performed voluntariy by groups of church members. All money collected are posted and their distribution is posted as well. The money is used to pay for utilities, but most of it goes to missions around the world that they are familiar with, communicate with, and are part of because because of their support. No one is salaried. I don't judge anyone, but this is something to consider. I attended a church service at a particular church for the first time. The pastor stood on the podium and announced that more money will be needed to build another building to expand the church. Meanwhile people are jobless, homeless, and begging for food around the area. Reminds me of the Roman Catholic Church which is the richest institution in the world. At another church which I checked out, the pastor was encouraging those in attendance to give, even if it was their last dollar, because God will reward them many times more. Again, I don't judge. I'll let God the judging.

 

[decipher]

We goto an assembly to edify one another by sharing with one another what has edified us from the Lord. The church is a community of very diverse people fellowshipping together in loving relationship because of Jesus. You can't have all that church provides by staying at home on your own with Jesus. You need to meet with at least two or three to gain the full benefits of belonging to the body of Christ.

I notice that many people go to church thinking that they are satisfying a requirement for which they will get a reward. The Roman Catholic Church has during service a priest who recites a scripted statement and the congregation responds with a scripted reply. They sit in unison, stand in unison, and kneel in unison. Contrast that to another church where the people in attendance, one at a time, stand to express their love, joy, and gratitude for the Father and Son in their lives.

 

[Follower777]

The first century church was made up of poor and illiterate believers. They did not have gospels yet and a copy of OT scripture was expensive. Even they had one they were unable to read. They could only listen to what elders (the church authority) taught. So there was no Sola Scriptura thing back then.
In that case, any church which teaches you Sola Scriptura is not following NT pattern of the First Century Church.

I see the '40000 deniminations' is the strong argument against your claim that your faith is led by 'the only HOLY SPIRIT', it must be truth. so I am not going to drop this point.

You keep on telling the girl : you mother is a woman, your mother loves you, your mother cooks your meals.....(just rubbish!)
The girl needs you to tell her where to find her mother!

I don't see you throwing tons of bible verses have helped you explained anything.

I AM telling you where to find "your mother"~~> The Holy Spirit, and it's up to you, by Faith, in the WORD, the working of the Holy Spirit, to pray to become aware.

You didn't, or couldn't follow the scriptural argument, "tons of bible verses" that I presented to you describing the Spirit led, Christian Church, OR you don't have, or are not listening to the Holy Spirit, dwelling in you, to where you are being"instructed" by the light of God's Word, to understand scripture, that there is ONLY one Holy Spirit, dwelling in SOME, but not ALL, of the different peoples, amongst ALL the different Christian denominations, (40,000+) of ALL the "Nations, Kingdoms and Tongues" irrespective of colour, language or cultural origin, World Wide, who are being presented Jesus, The Truth, by Our God, by His Spirit, to woo us to Love God AND our Neighbors, Matt 22:37.

( I'm sorry, I don't have time to scripturally prove these different terms used here, ( with tons of verses ) for you, but I have to assume that you have read your Bible enuf to understand, AND that you have the Holy Spirit, to lead you into that understanding.)

The Holy Spirit is a universal gift to all who trust in Christ. The Spirit does not discriminate by denomination; He works wherever genuine faith is found, even within churches that have strayed from orthodox teaching. The key to experiencing His presence lies in personal faith, earnest prayer, and openness to the biblical truth that transcends human institutions.

Follow the link below, and reread, the"tons of bible verses" what I posted. When reading ! .. Walk in the Spirit, rather than the flesh ! Gal 5:16

These below verses collectively demonstrate the biblical foundation for each of the characteristics that define the true, Christ‑headed church. ... culminating TODAY, as is Christ's Church mentioned in Rev 14:12 ~"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith OF Jesus."

1. Christ as Head and Founder

2. Doctrine Centered on the Gospel of Jesus Christ

3. Baptism by Immersion in the Name of the Triune God

4. Obedience to the Ten Commandments & the Law of Love

5. Holiness of Life & Moral Purity

6. Unity of Believers under One Faith & One Hope

7. Mission to Evangelize the World

8. Presence of the Holy Spirit

9. Visible Organization with Ordained Leadership
~~~> Blessed Sabbath Folks <~~~
****************** ΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣ ΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣ ******************

Below is the link to a post, from the "False Prophet" thread, describing what a person "looks like" who claims to be a Christian, BUT lacks the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ... "having a form of godliness but denying its power. ( "Power" refers to the H.S. ) And from such people turn away!" 2 Tim 3:5

WHAT & WHO, is a false prophet.
A person cannot reliably distinguish false Christs and false prophets without the help of the Holy Spirit. While human effort—such as studying scripture, testing teachings against the Bible (1 John 4:1-3), and examining the fruits of a teacher (Matthew 7:15-20)—is essential, these efforts depend on the Holy Spirit’s guidance to achieve true discernment.

 

[beechan]

I AM telling you where to find "your mother"~~> The Holy Spirit, and it's up to you, by Faith, in the WORD, the working of the Holy Spirit, to pray to become aware.

You failed to address your issue I raised to you:

why the ONLY ONE HOLY SPIRIT teaches different doctrines to different denominations?

You are aware of this in #150:




While it is not possible to have many HOLY SPIRITS, some denominations must be invented their own HOLY SPIRIT!

I am still raising the same question: On which church should the one true HOLY SPIRIT rest? Find HIM!

 

[beechan]

I notice that many people go to church thinking that they are satisfying a requirement for which they will get a reward. The Roman Catholic Church has during service a priest who recites a scripted statement and the congregation responds with a scripted reply. They sit in unison, stand in unison, and kneel in unison. Contrast that to another church where the people in attendance, one at a time, stand to express their love, joy, and gratitude for the Father and Son in their lives.

May be these pictures help you to see the difference:



Flock of sheep with a shepherd

Flock of sheep without a shepherd:

 

[beechan]

We goto an assembly to edify one another by sharing with one another what has edified us from the Lord. The church is a community of very diverse people fellowshipping together in loving relationship because of Jesus. You can't have all that church provides by staying at home on your own with Jesus. You need to meet with at least two or three to gain the full benefits of belonging to the body of Christ.

I see Catholics have a more profound reason in 'going to church': to have the bread from heaven clearly taught by Jesus!

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

 

[beechan]

I responded to your excerpts from 2Tim3:16.

Unless you're Mr. Nelte, when you copy and paste from an article (linked here) as it seems you've done here and maybe in one other place I noticed, you should reference it. I've read it and thought he did quite a job articulating his view.

I actually have no current issue with this verse not meaning what Protestantism has made of it. Nor do I think it supports the Roman denomination.

I see you use this verse to support Protestant's view of 'sola scriptura' as the only authority, especially emphasizing on the words: 'ALL SCRIPTURES".

Just because ALL SCRIPTURES are God-breathed, Protestants cannot accept scriptures would have errors.

Secular scholars and atheists are actually quoting much contradictions and errors to disparage the bible just because of this protestant doctrine.

 

[studier]

I see you use this verse to support Protestant's view of 'sola scriptura' as the only authority, especially emphasizing on the words: 'ALL SCRIPTURES".

Just because ALL SCRIPTURES are God-breathed, Protestants cannot accept scriptures would have errors.

Secular scholars and atheists are actually quoting much contradictions and errors to disparage the bible just because of this protestant doctrine.

Are you sure you read my post?