Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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These in Hebrews had the Holy Spirit and fell away. These are Jews in the tribulation who trusted Jesus but then took the mark and will be damned forever.
”True believers” in the Church Age cannot lose the Holy Spirit because we are sealed unto the day of redemption. The tribulation is a whole new ball game. One must endure to the end.
We must take what is said literally, and not try and make it fit the body of Christ when the doctrinal application is to the Jews in a different dispensation.
”True believers” in the Church Age cannot lose the Holy Spirit because we are sealed unto the day of redemption. The tribulation is a whole new ball game. One must endure to the end.
We must take what is said literally, and not try and make it fit the body of Christ when the doctrinal application is to the Jews in a different dispensation.
If I understand your point correctly (and I might not), respectfully, I do not think that I agree.
Instead, it seems to me that the Bible wasn't designed by God to be carved out for consumption by different groups differently in certain situations. By the admonition that no verse of prophecy is of any private interpretation, and to compare the spiritual with the spiritual, God is telling us that, since being written by Him, it is one integrated book and should be read and perceived that way --what was written for one was intended for all. The Bible, in its entirety, and as its foundation, is Christ: He is the common thread linking it all together. Please observe that in book of Hebrews itself, we are informed of that very thig:
[Heb 10:5-7 KJV]
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
One of the main purposes of Hebrews, as is demonstrated above, was to inform us that all religious structures (including the Jewish religion) were done away by, and in, Christ.
This is emphasized in Col 3:11 KJV]:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
Should we do as you' suggest, then we would be in violation of the admonitions mentioned above, and thereby, place us in
Jeopardy of misinterpreting and misunderstanding the Bible's message.
If I've misunderstood your point, my apology.
Instead, it seems to me that the Bible wasn't designed by God to be carved out for consumption by different groups differently in certain situations. By the admonition that no verse of prophecy is of any private interpretation, and to compare the spiritual with the spiritual, God is telling us that, since being written by Him, it is one integrated book and should be read and perceived that way --what was written for one was intended for all. The Bible, in its entirety, and as its foundation, is Christ: He is the common thread linking it all together. Please observe that in book of Hebrews itself, we are informed of that very thig:
[Heb 10:5-7 KJV]
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
One of the main purposes of Hebrews, as is demonstrated above, was to inform us that all religious structures (including the Jewish religion) were done away by, and in, Christ.
This is emphasized in Col 3:11 KJV]:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
Should we do as you' suggest, then we would be in violation of the admonitions mentioned above, and thereby, place us in
Jeopardy of misinterpreting and misunderstanding the Bible's message.
If I've misunderstood your point, my apology.
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The Eleven that Jesus chose, in time, were part of the Eternal Elect. Were not these eleven brought into the ark of safety? Were any of the Eleven lost? Did not the Eleven go onto proclaim the Gospel message as Apostles? Therefore, their election to Salvation, is herein demonstrated in time, when they heard the voice of the Good Shepherd. The Lord knows His own and calls them out by name. Thus, taking us back to John 10.
Appointed to service as Apostles - yes- because they were Elected to Salvation first. Was Judas an Apostle - no - because he was not elected to Salvation.
As to Judas, he was called to fulfill the prophecy, spoken by the mouth of David. Again a form of God's choosing but apart from Salvation. Judas was declared as a Devil (Demon), early on, so as not to confuse the teachings of Election, Salvation and Apostacy. Chosen to fulfill prophecy - yes - but not chosen to Salvation. Followed Jesus Christ as a disciple - yes - but did not believe on Jesus Christ, with all of his heart, soul and mind.
Appointed to service as Apostles - yes- because they were Elected to Salvation first. Was Judas an Apostle - no - because he was not elected to Salvation.
As to Judas, he was called to fulfill the prophecy, spoken by the mouth of David. Again a form of God's choosing but apart from Salvation. Judas was declared as a Devil (Demon), early on, so as not to confuse the teachings of Election, Salvation and Apostacy. Chosen to fulfill prophecy - yes - but not chosen to Salvation. Followed Jesus Christ as a disciple - yes - but did not believe on Jesus Christ, with all of his heart, soul and mind.
To begin with, I don't take cheap shots! I state, what I sadly believe, maybe true. This is why I said: The Lord will have to help you overcome the stubbornness of your heart.
As to your challenge - I will begin. Why? Because I want everyone to see how you try to use God's Word against itself. Scripture being used against Scripture. Only a person, who is defending man's doctrine, would do such. If one, is truly attempting to come to the Truth, then they compare Scripture with Scripture.
Let's begin shall we? Scripture declares the following about Depravity:
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Therefore, the subject of Depravity is described here, as having 7 effects on all of mankind. They are:
1.) ALL are under sin.
2.) None is Righteous.
3.) None has Understanding about the things of God. Obviously man understands somethings: Sciences, philosophy, medicine...etc.
4.) None is seeking after God.
5.) ALL turned aside from God.
6.) ALL became worthless.
7.) None do acts of Good (From God's perspective), NO NOT ONE.
Several questions then rise from these indictments, as to how mankind can achieve Salvation or believe on Christ or Trust God?
1.) If all are under sin and love sin - Then why would they, of their own accord, desire to pursue righteousness?
2.) If none has understanding, about the things of God - Then how can that person ever come to understand the danger they are in?
3.) If none are seeking after God - Then how does one go from that condition, to a condition that desires and seeks God?
4.) If all have turned aside - Then how do they turnback? Through understanding spiritual things and searching after God. BUT WAIT - There is that little problem of none having understanding and none are seeking.
5.) If all are unprofitable or worthless - Then how does that condition change?
6.) If none is doing GOOD but yet we think we are - How does this message penetrate the depraved mind?
If one truly desires to know God's Truth, then they must faithfully answer those questions. If they do not or have no desire for an answer, then they are willingly ignorant and remain deceived.
Other verses on the subject:
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
Gal 5:17a For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other;
As to your challenge - I will begin. Why? Because I want everyone to see how you try to use God's Word against itself. Scripture being used against Scripture. Only a person, who is defending man's doctrine, would do such. If one, is truly attempting to come to the Truth, then they compare Scripture with Scripture.
Let's begin shall we? Scripture declares the following about Depravity:
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Therefore, the subject of Depravity is described here, as having 7 effects on all of mankind. They are:
1.) ALL are under sin.
2.) None is Righteous.
3.) None has Understanding about the things of God. Obviously man understands somethings: Sciences, philosophy, medicine...etc.
4.) None is seeking after God.
5.) ALL turned aside from God.
6.) ALL became worthless.
7.) None do acts of Good (From God's perspective), NO NOT ONE.
Several questions then rise from these indictments, as to how mankind can achieve Salvation or believe on Christ or Trust God?
1.) If all are under sin and love sin - Then why would they, of their own accord, desire to pursue righteousness?
2.) If none has understanding, about the things of God - Then how can that person ever come to understand the danger they are in?
3.) If none are seeking after God - Then how does one go from that condition, to a condition that desires and seeks God?
4.) If all have turned aside - Then how do they turnback? Through understanding spiritual things and searching after God. BUT WAIT - There is that little problem of none having understanding and none are seeking.
5.) If all are unprofitable or worthless - Then how does that condition change?
6.) If none is doing GOOD but yet we think we are - How does this message penetrate the depraved mind?
If one truly desires to know God's Truth, then they must faithfully answer those questions. If they do not or have no desire for an answer, then they are willingly ignorant and remain deceived.
Other verses on the subject:
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
Gal 5:17a For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other;
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That's not an answer from one who has any real desire to come to the Truth. I tried to give you a little incite as to what I have learned over my 35+ years as a believer and you comeback with that.
Perhaps then, you would enlighten me as to how these two areas of Scripture should be understood. Square holes and round pegs or whatever, don't help much.
Perhaps then, you would enlighten me as to how these two areas of Scripture should be understood. Square holes and round pegs or whatever, don't help much.
I try very, very hard, never to exceed the scope of what the Scriptures teach. Nowhere does it say that Judas was redeemed. In Matthew's account it says:
Mat_27:3 Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Judas, according to the context, "repented" or "changed his mind" about taking the money. He took the money back to the chief Priest and elders. It does not say he repented of his sins. Certainly, one who has repented of his sins before God and has received forgiveness - Does not commit suicide.
Scripture also tells us, that Judas returned to the place prepared for him:
Acts 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place.
The Jews believed that "his place", when found in Scripture, sometimes meant the same thing as, a place prepared in "hell". There is a parallel here to what is said in Gen. 31:55, about Laban and Numbers 24:25, about Balaam.
Gen 31:55 And early in the morning Laban rose up, and kissed his sons and his daughters, and blessed them: and Laban departed and returned unto his place.
Num 24:25 And Balaam rose up, and went and returned to his place; and Balak also went his way.
In both of these verses, this was the last time we saw either Laban or Balaam. All other references to them are historical in nature. Looking back at them and their deeds. In Laban's case, there is just one other verse, in Gen. 32:4.
In either case, Scripture clearly says that Judas apostatized the faith - he fell away because he was not in the faith and was used by God to fulfill Prophecy.
Mat_27:3 Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Judas, according to the context, "repented" or "changed his mind" about taking the money. He took the money back to the chief Priest and elders. It does not say he repented of his sins. Certainly, one who has repented of his sins before God and has received forgiveness - Does not commit suicide.
Scripture also tells us, that Judas returned to the place prepared for him:
Acts 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place.
The Jews believed that "his place", when found in Scripture, sometimes meant the same thing as, a place prepared in "hell". There is a parallel here to what is said in Gen. 31:55, about Laban and Numbers 24:25, about Balaam.
Gen 31:55 And early in the morning Laban rose up, and kissed his sons and his daughters, and blessed them: and Laban departed and returned unto his place.
Num 24:25 And Balaam rose up, and went and returned to his place; and Balak also went his way.
In both of these verses, this was the last time we saw either Laban or Balaam. All other references to them are historical in nature. Looking back at them and their deeds. In Laban's case, there is just one other verse, in Gen. 32:4.
In either case, Scripture clearly says that Judas apostatized the faith - he fell away because he was not in the faith and was used by God to fulfill Prophecy.
No, I don't think so:
[Mar 14:20-21 KJV]
20 And he answered and said unto them, [It is] one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Truly terrifying when we consider it, isn't it? Imagine (if we are able) the full and complete realization of no hope throughout all eternity -- I shudder to even think about it.
[Mar 14:20-21 KJV]
20 And he answered and said unto them, [It is] one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Truly terrifying when we consider it, isn't it? Imagine (if we are able) the full and complete realization of no hope throughout all eternity -- I shudder to even think about it.
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As you know, the proof that election is to salvation is a verse that plainly says so. So all your questions don't help the discussion. What you need are verses that SAY that salvation is to election.
This doesn't support election to salvation.
While you may like to throw in parts of verses, none of this is SAID in Scripture. And that is how to prove your theory.
Of course He does, and none of this is even about election.
No, they were elected to service; all of them. If they were elected to salvation, you need to quote at least one verses that actually says that.
Scripture actually says otherwise; that Judas was also an apostle. I do agree that he was never saved.
Matt 10:2-4
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
He was chosen/elected for that service.
None of God's choosing is to salvation. I have pages of verses that specifically show the purpose of being chosen was to service.
No, the Bible didn't "declare" Judas as a devil, but he was described as a devil. And the bible DOES say that Judas was chosen.
John 6:70-71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Fulfilling prophecy IS service. It's ok to admit it.
I don't think he believed at all. He was an opportunist.
Unless you can find and quote a verse that clearly shows election to salvation, you don't have a point.
You are trying to "connect the dots" that aren't connected.
I can show you pages of verses that clearly show election to service.
This doesn't support election to salvation.
While you may like to throw in parts of verses, none of this is SAID in Scripture. And that is how to prove your theory.
Of course He does, and none of this is even about election.
No, they were elected to service; all of them. If they were elected to salvation, you need to quote at least one verses that actually says that.
Scripture actually says otherwise; that Judas was also an apostle. I do agree that he was never saved.
Matt 10:2-4
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
He was chosen/elected for that service.
None of God's choosing is to salvation. I have pages of verses that specifically show the purpose of being chosen was to service.
No, the Bible didn't "declare" Judas as a devil, but he was described as a devil. And the bible DOES say that Judas was chosen.
John 6:70-71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Fulfilling prophecy IS service. It's ok to admit it.
I don't think he believed at all. He was an opportunist.
Unless you can find and quote a verse that clearly shows election to salvation, you don't have a point.
You are trying to "connect the dots" that aren't connected.
I can show you pages of verses that clearly show election to service.
FreeGrace2 said:
Wanna bet? I have challenged her, and now YOU to provide verses that plainly state each point. That means 1 verse per point, not 1 verse that states all 5 points.
Once each of you shows that you can't do that, I will provide verses that plainly refute each of the 5 points. That is, if you claim the 5th point is about perseverance. If you think it is preservation (eternal security), then I'm fully on board with that.
OK, so you believe that it is a waste of time to prove your view is biblical. That is weird indeed.
Rather, this kind of loose talk is from those who know they can't defend their points or views. So they don't.
Nice cheap shot.
So, you've already checked out on trying to prove the 5 points of calvinism are biblical.
Now, once Beckie checks out without any verses, I will provide clear verses that refute each point.
You are in no position to judge my heart. The Lord alone does that. Your judging is anti-biblical.
Well, I'm glad you decided to take my challenge. Thank you for that. However, I've never "tried to use God's Word against itself". That is a bogus charge.
I DO use God's Word against the claims of those who misuse God's Word.
Ok, let's stop here. Rom 3:10-18 is a series of 6 OT quotes. Paul sets the fact in v.9: all are under sin. Then, he begins to quote 6 different OT passages/verses to demonstrate the various ways all people sin.
Do you seriously think that every human being is guilty of EVERY verse from 10-18??
v.10-11 quotes Psa 14:1-3 directly. The subject of that passage? Atheists. Of course they "don't seek God". But there are verses that acknowledge that people DO seek God.
Acts 17:27 - God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.
Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Still doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.
So, I have used God's Word to REFUTE the calvinist claim that no one seeks God. Atheists don't.
None of these potentials prove the calvinist claim about total depravity.
The biblical view of total depravity is simply that man is unable to save himself. Period. That's it.
But calvinism goes too far and claim that man is unable to believe on his own. But calvinism has no verses that say what they claim.
I have not used God's Word against God's Word. I have used God's Word to reveal that calvin's claim about total depravity isn't found in the Bible.
OK, on to the next point: unconditional election to salvation.
Wanna bet? I have challenged her, and now YOU to provide verses that plainly state each point. That means 1 verse per point, not 1 verse that states all 5 points.
Once each of you shows that you can't do that, I will provide verses that plainly refute each of the 5 points. That is, if you claim the 5th point is about perseverance. If you think it is preservation (eternal security), then I'm fully on board with that.
OK, so you believe that it is a waste of time to prove your view is biblical. That is weird indeed.
Rather, this kind of loose talk is from those who know they can't defend their points or views. So they don't.
Nice cheap shot.
So, you've already checked out on trying to prove the 5 points of calvinism are biblical.
Now, once Beckie checks out without any verses, I will provide clear verses that refute each point.
You are in no position to judge my heart. The Lord alone does that. Your judging is anti-biblical.
Well, I'm glad you decided to take my challenge. Thank you for that. However, I've never "tried to use God's Word against itself". That is a bogus charge.
I DO use God's Word against the claims of those who misuse God's Word.
Ok, let's stop here. Rom 3:10-18 is a series of 6 OT quotes. Paul sets the fact in v.9: all are under sin. Then, he begins to quote 6 different OT passages/verses to demonstrate the various ways all people sin.
Do you seriously think that every human being is guilty of EVERY verse from 10-18??
v.10-11 quotes Psa 14:1-3 directly. The subject of that passage? Atheists. Of course they "don't seek God". But there are verses that acknowledge that people DO seek God.
Acts 17:27 - God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.
Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Still doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.
So, I have used God's Word to REFUTE the calvinist claim that no one seeks God. Atheists don't.
None of these potentials prove the calvinist claim about total depravity.
The biblical view of total depravity is simply that man is unable to save himself. Period. That's it.
But calvinism goes too far and claim that man is unable to believe on his own. But calvinism has no verses that say what they claim.
I have not used God's Word against God's Word. I have used God's Word to reveal that calvin's claim about total depravity isn't found in the Bible.
OK, on to the next point: unconditional election to salvation.
FreeGrace2 said:
As you know, the proof that election is to salvation is a verse that plainly says so. So all your questions don't help the discussion. What you need are verses that SAY that salvation is to election.
It appears those without any common sense need literally EVERYTHING spelled out.
Haven't you ever heard the expression, "the proof is in the pudding"? That refers to EVIDENCE. Do you understand what "evidence" means and how it is used?
Another word for "evidence" is FACT. A fact is reality, a truth. It is evidence, facts that prove a statement to be real or truth.
That's why I always ask for a verse that SAYS what a poster believes, claims, believes, preaches.
Why should anyone believe a claim that has no biblical basis?
I do not believe what the Bible doesn't say. Yes, some things go without saying, but that doesn't include a doctrine, such as election.
We MUST know what the Bible says about it. And it says nothing about salvation, and everything about service.
Thanks for your question. Too many believers simply accept what they are taught, without any research to determine the veracity of what is claimed.
As you know, the proof that election is to salvation is a verse that plainly says so. So all your questions don't help the discussion. What you need are verses that SAY that salvation is to election.
It appears those without any common sense need literally EVERYTHING spelled out.
Haven't you ever heard the expression, "the proof is in the pudding"? That refers to EVIDENCE. Do you understand what "evidence" means and how it is used?
Another word for "evidence" is FACT. A fact is reality, a truth. It is evidence, facts that prove a statement to be real or truth.
That's why I always ask for a verse that SAYS what a poster believes, claims, believes, preaches.
Why should anyone believe a claim that has no biblical basis?
I do not believe what the Bible doesn't say. Yes, some things go without saying, but that doesn't include a doctrine, such as election.
We MUST know what the Bible says about it. And it says nothing about salvation, and everything about service.
Thanks for your question. Too many believers simply accept what they are taught, without any research to determine the veracity of what is claimed.
What you've said above beyond doubt is completely and utterly absurd and garbage, and not worth anyone's serious consideration: in effect, you have said that you are unable to substantiate the origin of your demand from the Bible (alone), and yet, you try to impose upon others that same demand - the one you could not satisfy. On the surface, your statements might appear reasonable to some who haven't thought it through deeply enough, but when you continue to make up the rules as you go along as you did, and contradict the very premise of your demand, that flaw becomes obvious to all sooner or later. By not providing any biblical support of your position whatsoever, you place yourself into direct contravention of that which the Bible informs. Your protestations of my reply (above) only serve to demonstrate that fact, and the weakness and folly of your position. Let me educate you on something very important, which, it seems, you've either missed or are incapable of understanding: that the Bible is fully complete within itself needing nothing beyond itself in any respect -- the Bible should not be compared against anything external to it for validation or completion, or to form doctrine. Rather, any and all doctrine one assumes correct, must pass muster against the whole council of the Bible alone, and not the reverse. If you cannot satisfy such a muster, we can then know the doctrine in question is unquestionably garbage - and which is the case with yours. So, unless and until you can meet that minimum requirement, you should cease and desist from spewing your man-made garbage to others on this thread.
Incredible as it is, you've said the following:
"Why should anyone believe a claim that has no biblical basis?
I do not believe what the Bible doesn't say. Yes, some things go without saying, but that doesn't include a doctrine, such as election. "
Here, from the Bible, are those specific verses you've said don't exist. So, it can be clearly seen that your statement is unequivocally false
In 2 Peter 1:19 - 20 we are specifically warned that any one verse should NEVER be used as validation of any assumption, which assumption you've made by demanding that one verse be shown with election and salvation, which demand you imposed on others, but could not satisfy yourself.
[2Pe 1:19-20 KJV]
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
We are expressly informed by the Bible that it alone is fully complete within itself to include the methods of interpretation that we should employ to gain understanding:
[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Incredible as it is, you've said the following:
"Why should anyone believe a claim that has no biblical basis?
I do not believe what the Bible doesn't say. Yes, some things go without saying, but that doesn't include a doctrine, such as election. "
Here, from the Bible, are those specific verses you've said don't exist. So, it can be clearly seen that your statement is unequivocally false
In 2 Peter 1:19 - 20 we are specifically warned that any one verse should NEVER be used as validation of any assumption, which assumption you've made by demanding that one verse be shown with election and salvation, which demand you imposed on others, but could not satisfy yourself.
[2Pe 1:19-20 KJV]
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
We are expressly informed by the Bible that it alone is fully complete within itself to include the methods of interpretation that we should employ to gain understanding:
[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
FreeGrace2 said:
It appears those without any common sense need literally EVERYTHING spelled out.
Haven't you ever heard the expression, "the proof is in the pudding"? That refers to EVIDENCE. Do you understand what "evidence" means and how it is used?
Another word for "evidence" is FACT. A fact is reality, a truth. It is evidence, facts that prove a statement to be real or truth.
That's why I always ask for a verse that SAYS what a poster believes, claims, believes, preaches.
Why should anyone believe a claim that has no biblical basis?
I do not believe what the Bible doesn't say. Yes, some things go without saying, but that doesn't include a doctrine, such as election.
I am not at all surprised at your retort. You are not teachable. Your mind has been made up and you don't want the FACTS. Have it your way. You've been given the truth. That's all I can do.
Yep. I appealed on common sense, and since you can't grasp that, says everything.
I have pages of verses that directly link election/appointment/ordained/called to service.
You have ZERO verses that directly link election to salvation.
And I've given most of them already. But you just dismiss them as if they don't exist.
Again, have it your way. You haven't provided ANY verse that links election to salvation.
So your doctrine is baseless.
It appears those without any common sense need literally EVERYTHING spelled out.
Haven't you ever heard the expression, "the proof is in the pudding"? That refers to EVIDENCE. Do you understand what "evidence" means and how it is used?
Another word for "evidence" is FACT. A fact is reality, a truth. It is evidence, facts that prove a statement to be real or truth.
That's why I always ask for a verse that SAYS what a poster believes, claims, believes, preaches.
Why should anyone believe a claim that has no biblical basis?
I do not believe what the Bible doesn't say. Yes, some things go without saying, but that doesn't include a doctrine, such as election.
I am not at all surprised at your retort. You are not teachable. Your mind has been made up and you don't want the FACTS. Have it your way. You've been given the truth. That's all I can do.
Yep. I appealed on common sense, and since you can't grasp that, says everything.
I have pages of verses that directly link election/appointment/ordained/called to service.
You have ZERO verses that directly link election to salvation.
And I've given most of them already. But you just dismiss them as if they don't exist.
Again, have it your way. You haven't provided ANY verse that links election to salvation.
So your doctrine is baseless.
Supposed "evidence" ascertained by means external to the Bible are subjective to the one examining it, and therefore untrustworthy.
And either you've had a complete failure of comprehension, or you don't care about what God has set-forth regarding the rules of biblical interpretation. The criteria you have described are derived not from God but yourself: your statements fly in the face of the Bible. Therefore, you have no basis for the demands you've imposed upon others for identifying God's truth.
I hope everyone who reads this with take into consideration that your analysis began from a spiritually corrupt foundation, and
therefore, will only lead them if followed to folly and error, not truth. I have clearly posted verses from the Bible that were intended to govern interpretation, Freegrace2 has not, and has only provided self-defined/delusional subjective criteria which violates the Bible's directions and intent -- as a matter of fact even he, himself, could not satisfy his own criteria regarding his own assertion.
As I've said to you so many times before, Freegrace2, you don't get to impose as gospel the rules you like or that may seem right to you - only God can do that. So, by your determined, demonstrated lack of concern for the Bible, I am forced to the conclusion that you are a fraud and a charlatan whether or not you realize it -- at least for now.
And either you've had a complete failure of comprehension, or you don't care about what God has set-forth regarding the rules of biblical interpretation. The criteria you have described are derived not from God but yourself: your statements fly in the face of the Bible. Therefore, you have no basis for the demands you've imposed upon others for identifying God's truth.
I hope everyone who reads this with take into consideration that your analysis began from a spiritually corrupt foundation, and
therefore, will only lead them if followed to folly and error, not truth. I have clearly posted verses from the Bible that were intended to govern interpretation, Freegrace2 has not, and has only provided self-defined/delusional subjective criteria which violates the Bible's directions and intent -- as a matter of fact even he, himself, could not satisfy his own criteria regarding his own assertion.
As I've said to you so many times before, Freegrace2, you don't get to impose as gospel the rules you like or that may seem right to you - only God can do that. So, by your determined, demonstrated lack of concern for the Bible, I am forced to the conclusion that you are a fraud and a charlatan whether or not you realize it -- at least for now.
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