Grace and Law.

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Here's a thought for some here
Jesus fulfilled the law for us therefore we are not under the law.
The two commandments that he left us with are to love the LORD with all we have and our neighbors as ourselves.
These two things Jesus cannot do for us....its totally up to us.
Jesus also said if you love me you'll keep my commandments which are...???
Peter was asked three times by Jesus.".do you love me"? Peter replied by the three love terms of the greek.
Jesus replied..feed my sheep.
By doing the word of God you become servants. By doing the will of God you become sons.
What is the will of God....to believe his son.
My perspective only cause this is a hard one for me. We have the law written in are hearts. Paul talks of gentiles who naturally obey the law right? So yes the law is should be obeyed. It can't be perfected. Are you people done yet? I don't want a pagan judging me. That would bite.
 
Brother I need to know more yes. Knowledge puffs up love edifies. Knowledge I need more. It's gonna take years. But thanks.
FYI, Not every reply posted to the thread is a reply to you...but you will receive all notifications of replies because you are part of this thread. When members want to reply to a specific member, they quote their post like I just did. If other members do not post anyone's quote, they're usually making general statements or answering the thread's topic/question.
 
Listen I'm done with you. We can't live up to the law perfect. No one can. I'm not going to continue here. I'm not coming back to Bible discussion. I'm not here to debate. And no God's word yes we have to accept the whole book. You obviously don't understand that. I'm done before I lose my patience and show some love and Grace to you by saying Good night brother. Blessings.
Please hold on, I just started talking with you and you haven’t even responded to my first post to you. I said nothing about needing to have perfect obedience to the Law of God. I believe that the whole Bible is true and that no part of it should be interpreted in a way that contradicts another part. Good night.
 
FYI, Not every reply posted to the thread is a reply to you...but you will receive all notifications of replies because you are part of this thread. When members want to reply to a specific member, they quote their post like I just did. If other members do not post anyone's quote, they're usually making general statements or answering the thread's topic/question.
Ok. That's weird. I get alerts on every one
 
Since there is so much confusion and so much false doctrine here, let's see what God's word has to say. By "Law", I mean primarily the 10 Commandments. Some believe that all 613 Levitical laws still apply. I suggest that they try to implement them exactly as God commands. That will make for an interesting court case.

"For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world was not given through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith is useless and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression." Romans 4:13-15

Is the Law the covenant? Not according to God's word:

"By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13

"........by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace....." Ephesians 2:15

"For Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4

"So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian." Galatians 3:25

"Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it legitimately. We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for killers of father or mother, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching that agrees with the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted." 1 Timothy 1:8-11

A word to the legalists:
Galatians 3:3-5
Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?

I realise that those enslaved by legalism will reject God's word. So my hope is that some who are falling under the SDA spell will be awakened by the truth of God's word.

I will speak about grace in another post.
It's important to go back to the tabernacle in the wilderness, back to what happened about two months out of Egypt, to fully understand this topic. Without the proper foundation, one incorrectly pits the Law against Grace and vice versa, which leads to a misapplication of Paul's letters, especially to the Galatians. Also, what trips up scholars is weak translations.

There are two elements to "The Law":

#1. The stuff a person is supposed to follow to avoid sin

#2. The stuff a person is supposed to follow to cleanse/pay for sin after it is committed

Christ came and showed us how to do #1, while He fulfilled #2 because #2 was always a rehearsal of His work that only He could do. After Christ resurrected and ascended to heaven, we are still required to do #1 while now having faith that He is doing #2 in heaven. He sent us His Holy Spirit and Grace to help us do #1, and if we stumble, we can boldly go to His throne and ask forgiveness for the stumble because He's doing #2.

What was nailed to the cross was #2. He saved us from having to do #2 ourselves (because the price was too great), so that we can learn to do #1, stumble, and get better and better at it. But to say we don't need to do #1 is false doctrine and is why Christians can spend their entire lives after conversion never growing in likeness of Christ because they were taught never to even try.

The Galatians continued to do #2 after Christ / the Cross. Paul correctly told them they were wrong in what they were doing. They were going backward.

As Paul says in Romans, all will be judged by how well they do #1 (based on the portions of #1 that they know and understand and that apply to them). Make no mistake, those who do #1 and teach others to do #1 will be called greatest in the kingdom, while those who do not do #1 and teach others not to do #1 will be called least in the kingdom.
 
Ok. That's weird. I get alerts on every one

Hi Michael, the site sends you an alert when someone replies to a thread that you have posted in, but usually the person's reply is not directed at you personally.

However, if you get an alert that tells you someone quoted your post (as I did here above), that means they are talking to you directly. Also if they type @Michaelarc then you should get an alert that you were mentioned.

It takes some practice but you will get the hang of it! 💪😎👍
 
My perspective only cause this is a hard one for me. We have the law written in are hearts. Paul talks of gentiles who naturally obey the law right? So yes the law is should be obeyed. It can't be perfected. Are you people done yet? I don't want a pagan judging me. That would bite.

And what is written in your heart?
 
It is important to recognize that a servant of God can speak against obeying God for an incorrect reason without speaking against obeying God, so the fact the the Law of God was never given as a way to earn our righteousness or to earn the promise does not mean that we are not obligated to obey what God has commanded. While it is true that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he was a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God because he believed God (Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works (Romans 4). Moreover, the fact that the promise is not earned as the result of our works does not mean that what is promised is not in regard to our works. The Gospel that Jesus spread in Matthew 4:15-23 that called for our repentance from our disobedience to the Law of God was in accordance with him being sent as the promise seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26). The Law of God is how the children of of Abraham know how to be blessed by walking in God's way (Psalm 119:1-3), so the way that the children of Abraham are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and by teaching them to obey the Law of God in accordance with spreading the Gospel.


In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete does not mean that we should no longer obey the Law of God.


The Bible does not use the Greek word "dogma" to refer to the Law of God. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalm 119:160). In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separated from Christ, alienated from Israel and the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world, which is in accordance with Gentiles at one time not being doers of the Law of God, but through faith in Christ all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God, which is in accordance with Gentiles becoming doers of the Law of God.


In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God but it was not based on knowing Him, so they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as though righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursuing it as through righteousness were by faith, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-13, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are committing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation, and in regard to the way to believe the Gospel.


Jesus did not begin his ministry with the Gospel message to stop repenting because the God's Word has ended now that he has come and we are now free to become doers of what it reveals to be wickedness, but just the opposite. In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was send as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness. The reason why God's Word leads us to God's Word made flesh is because he is the embodiment of it and it was given to teach us how to know him through embodying it.


A child no longer needs a guardian to help them cross a busy street when they have been taught how to safely cross it on their own, but that does not mean that they no longer need to safely cross busy streets.


Indeed, the Law of God is good if one uses it legitimately. Those who misuse these verses by saying to say that the Law of God is only for the unrighteous in order to justify their freedom to be a doer of unrighteous works thereby become someone that the Law of God is for.


The Law of God was never given as a way to receive the Spirit as the result, but that doesn't mean that we aren't obligate to obey what God has commanded. Moreover, this is speaking about works of the law rather than about the Law of God.


In Psalm 119:142, the Law of God is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of the Law of God that puts us into slavery while the truth sets us free. In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God spoke to him without departing from it, so you are the one who is rejecting God's Word.


The people in the Bible wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching them to obey His law (Psalm 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Titus 2:11-13), but you seem to want God to be gracious to you instead of teaching you to obey it.
Another clueless comment from someone who has no idea what the gospel is about. I'm glad that I died to the law. I now live by a new law, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. He has already fulfilled all of the righteous demands of the Law so i do not have to. And obviously you do not know what grace is.

The Law made no one righteous and saves no one. God did not save us from the law in order to put us back under it. I'm tired of pointing out the truth to those who won't listen. So you won't hear from me again.
 
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And what is written in your heart?
This answer should take into consideration the declaration that we are not 'under the law' so that there needs to be a distinction between the law that we are not under and the laws written on our hearts, which would be 'the arm' we are 'under.' Ei, we are no longer under the judge's arm, we have been taken into the everlasting Father's arms.
 
Another clueless comment from someone who has no idea what the gospel is about.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message.


I'm glad that I died to the law.
We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around. You should be glad to get the opportunity to follow a set of instructions that are accurately described in Psalm 19:7-11.

I now live by a new law, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ.

He has already fulfilled all of the righteous demands of the Law so i do not have to.
Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus removed our salvation by doing that.

And obviously you do not know what grace is.
In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

The Law made no one righteous and saves no one.
The Law of God was never given as a way of earning our righteousness or salvation, but that doesn’t mean that we are not obligated to obey it for the reasons for why it was given.

God did not save us from the law in order to put us back under it.
In Matthew 1:21, it doesn't say that Jesus saves us from the Law, but from our sin, which is living in transgression of the it.

I'm tired of pointing out the truth to those who won't listen. So you won't hear from me again.
In Psalm 119:142, the Law of God is truth, so you are not pointing out the truth, but rather you are opposed to truth. You post verses that you don't understand in order to try to argue against a position that you don't understand and instead of listing you refuse to defend your position because it is indefensible. In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet is if they speak against obeying the Law of God, so followers of Christ should still follow his example of obedience to the Law of God regardless of whether or not your understanding of the verses that you quoted is correct.
 
Not sure how you understand the "law of Christ"?
My understanding of it is at the very least it is not contrary to anything that Christ taught.

Are you implying that the ceremonial law was not spoken by Jesus?
The Bible never lists which laws are part of the ceremonial law and never even refers to that as being a category of law, so there is no way to establish the set of which laws that they considered to be part of the ceremonial law or even that they considered that to be a category of law, which means that there is no justification for interpreting them as referring to the ceremonial law. Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, which is primarily inclusive of all of the Law of Moses.

At a minimum, no Gentile church submits to the ceremonial law.
The Bible repeatedly calls Gentiles to be holy. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which probably includes laws that you have arbitrarily decided are part of the ceremonial law. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms uses to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to follow the instructions that God gave for how to fulfills those roles. It would be contradictory for a Gentile to want to live as part of a holy nation while not wanting to follow God's instructions for how to live as part of a holy nation.

So every word the Lord spoke to Israel is not valid today, at a minimum.
That is in disagreement with Jesus and is obviously false.

The law was temporary until the Christ arrived.
All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160) and the only way that instructions for how to embody God's righteousness can be temporary would be if God's righteousness were also temporary. Jesus did not begin his ministry with the Bad News to stop repenting because the Law of God has ended now that he has arrive and we are now free to be cursed by becoming doers of what it reveals to be wickedness, but rather he began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness.

Do you believe that Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets?
Indeed, Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets by teaching us how to correctly obey it.

The law is good but is useless to attain righteousness.

Romans 10:3-4
For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own (the Jews), they did not
subject themselves to the righteousness of God
. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to
everyone who believes
.
The Law of God was never given as a way to attain righteousness but rather it was given to describe the life of someone who has attained righteousness.
 
By "Law", I mean primarily the 10 Commandments. Some believe that all 613 Levitical laws still apply. I suggest that they try to implement them exactly as God commands. That will make for an interesting court case.
James 2:8-11 KJV
8) If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

James tells us the Law is a single thing, that you cannot separate one part from another part.

He gives as examples two from the 10 commandments, and 2 from elsewhere in the law, to love your neighbor and to not show partiality.

Remember the covenent, "all that you say we will do", this is why Jesus spoke of "the law and the prophets", as they contain all that God told them to do.

Much love!
 
The Law of God was never given as a way to attain righteousness but rather it was given to describe the life of someone who has attained righteousness.
Actually it was given to condemn men to death.

You cannot actually now keep the Law, it's impossible, as there is no temple, there are no Levites, and so on.

The Law of Love is as high above the OT Law and Prophets as are the heavens above the earth.

Much love!
 
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My understanding of it is at the very least it is not contrary to anything that Christ taught.


The Bible never lists which laws are part of the ceremonial law and never even refers to that as being a category of law, so there is no way to establish the set of which laws that they considered to be part of the ceremonial law or even that they considered that to be a category of law, which means that there is no justification for interpreting them as referring to the ceremonial law. Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, which is primarily inclusive of all of the Law of Moses.


The Bible repeatedly calls Gentiles to be holy. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which probably includes laws that you have arbitrarily decided are part of the ceremonial law. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms uses to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to follow the instructions that God gave for how to fulfills those roles. It would be contradictory for a Gentile to want to live as part of a holy nation while not wanting to follow God's instructions for how to live as part of a holy nation.


That is in disagreement with Jesus and is obviously false.


All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160) and the only way that instructions for how to embody God's righteousness can be temporary would be if God's righteousness were also temporary. Jesus did not begin his ministry with the Bad News to stop repenting because the Law of God has ended now that he has arrive and we are now free to be cursed by becoming doers of what it reveals to be wickedness, but rather he began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness.


Indeed, Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets by teaching us how to correctly obey it.


The Law of God was never given as a way to attain righteousness but rather it was given to describe the life of someone who has attained righteousness.
I have always viewed the Gentiles as apart from the nation of Israel.

Israel was in a blood covenant to obey the book of the covenant with God.

The Gentiles were not in a blood covenant to obey the book of the covenant.

The Gentiles are grafted into the root of the olive tree and stand amongst the cultivated branches.

The Gentiles received commandment to avoid sexual immorality in Acts 15.

The Gentiles are not under the law and never were.

Think Gentile, think the law of Noah.

You quotation from 1 Peter, does not include the Gentiles.

1 Peter 2:9-11
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles.

Jews would need to keep their behavior excellent among the Gentiles.

Only Jews were the chosen nation and especially a royal priesthood.

The Gentiles are dogs that eat the crumbs from the masters table.

The law was temporary until Jesus arrived.

The law of Christ was to love others as He has loved us.

Twice in 1 peter, Peter tells them to fervently love the brethren.

That is the law of Christ.
 
Actually it was given to condemn men to death.

You cannot actually now keep the Law, it's impossible, as there is no temple, there are no Levites, and so on.

The Law of Love is as high above the OT Law and Prophets as are the heavens above the earth.

Much love!

No actually the Torah was given for laws of society for the Jewish people. How they should live with one another, how to entertain strangers. Marriage and worship. Even to the point of dress and appearance.
This was to make them different from other neighboring tribes and nations.
To be a peculiar people.
 
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No actually the Torah was given for laws of society for the Jewish people. How they should live with one another, how to entertain strangers. Marriage and worship. Even to the point of dress and appearance.
This was to make them different from other neighboring tribes and nations.
To be a peculiar people.
All well and good, but do you really believe that God did not know that Israel would continually break the Law? The Law saved no one. It only only brought condemnation. Even as Israel entered the promised land, someone had to break it. Law was introduced to show what sin was. Galatians 3:19 and Romans 5:20
 
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All well and good, but do you really believe that God did not know that Israel would continually break the Law? The Law saved no one. It only only brought condemnation. Even as Israel entered the promised land, someone had to break it. Law was introduced to show what sin was. Galatians 3:19 and Romans 5:20

Of course he did. The law is perfect, man far from it.
But all have sinned and fall short. God created Israel as a example to the world. Can we honestly say we are perfect in our walk?
We dont even have to contend with 613 laws.
As God says its the condition of the heart.
There is no law that can change a man's heart. Israel picked Moses and men (kings) to rule over them. Therefore God set laws to identify his people from the tribe and nations surrounding them. We have direct access to the throne praise God through Christ the King of kings and Lord of lords.
Remember it was the pharisees that corrupted what God had established. God will redeem his people.
 
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No actually the Torah was given for laws of society for the Jewish people. How they should live with one another, how to entertain strangers. Marriage and worship. Even to the point of dress and appearance.
This was to make them different from other neighboring tribes and nations.
To be a peculiar people.
There are many verses that call for Gentiles to be holy, so holiness is not just for Jews.
 
Actually it was given to condemn men to death.

You cannot actually now keep the Law, it's impossible, as there is no temple, there are no Levites, and so on.

The Law of Love is as high above the OT Law and Prophets as are the heavens above the earth.

Much love!
The Law of God only brings condemnation for those who refuse to submit to it, though there is a difference between someone refusing to submit to some of its law and someone not obeying some of its laws because their conditions are not met. For example, Jesus did not meet the condition of being a woman, so he had a legitimate reason to not obey the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. In Deuteronomy 17:18, it instructs the king to write a copy of the Torah, so everyone who is not the king has a legitimate reason for not obeying that law. Likewise, we have a legitimate reason for not following laws in regard to Temple practice when there is no Temple in which practice them.

Everything in the Law of God is either in regard to how to love God or our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so it is the Law of Love and the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. Love is not greater than God’s instructions for how to love and we can’t love God and our neighbor instead of following God’s instructions for how to do that.
 
No actually the Torah was given for laws of society for the Jewish people. How they should live with one another, how to entertain strangers. Marriage and worship. Even to the point of dress and appearance.
This was to make them different from other neighboring tribes and nations.
To be a peculiar people.
The other purpose for the Law, to keep them intact until Messiah arrived.

Much love!
 
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