Holiness or sinner

[Budman]

I like the proposal we are what Christ is.

The problem is if we do not walk in purity, can we claim the sense of holiness, purity, righteousness.

First of all, you can't walk in complete purity - not in this life. Because, yet again, if you want to add works to your salvation, the cost is absolute perfection - in thought, word, and deed.

Secondly, Christ's righteousness, sinlessness, holiness, etc. has been credited to us through repentance and faith, via Jesus's redemptive work on the cross - as a gift.

That's how God can declare sinful man; sinless, perfect, and without condemnation.

 

[Grace777x70]

It looks like Jesus with His word sanctifies/washes us....and we participate in His life...

John 17:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

Ephesians 5:26-27 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[SUP]27 [/SUP] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


Hebrews 13:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Believe the gospel and receive His cleansing by grace through faith. Jesus washes us the same way He saved us. - by believing what He has already done in His finished work.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

First of all, you can't walk in complete purity - not in this life. Because, yet again, if you want to add works to your salvation, the cost is absolute perfection - in thought, word, and deed.

Secondly, Christ's righteousness, sinlessness, holiness, etc. has been credited to us through repentance and faith, via Jesus's redemptive work on the cross - as a gift.

That's how God can declare sinful man; sinless, perfect, and without condemnation.

The faith of Christ is complete purity, and we can walk in that. So yes we can walk in complete purity. If you mean that we can and do stumble at times, that would mean that our walk isn't perfect, which is really a different matter altogether.

 

[Budman]

The faith of Christ is complete purity, and we can walk in that. So yes we can walk in complete purity. If you mean that we can and do stumble at times, that would mean that our walk isn't perfect, which is really a different matter altogether.

That's quite a contradiction ya got going on there....You say we can walk in "complete" purity, but we can "stumble" and our walk isn't "perfect".

Make up your mind.

 

[coby]

Let who is clean become more clean.

Peter was told he was clean and on the other hand:

and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren (in Dutch: have come to repentance)

 

[PeterJens]

Let who is clean become more clean.
Peter was told he was clean and on the other hand:
and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren (in Dutch: have come to repentance)

This point makes things very clear. Because your heart is cleansed and you know how to see thing without the distortions of sin or unresolved issues in your heart, does not mean you make the right choices or are guaranteed to not make mistakes.

Holiness and purity are places of being, but only give you the best opportunity to be and see things clearly.
Lucifer still fell from this position, so it is important to continue in love and know who one is and who the Lord is.

A lot of people talk as if arriving is the goal, rather than the goal has always been to serve and bring glory of our King, walking in His ways.

 

[PeterJens]

First of all, you can't walk in complete purity - not in this life. Because, yet again, if you want to add works to your salvation, the cost is absolute perfection - in thought, word, and deed.

Secondly, Christ's righteousness, sinlessness, holiness, etc. has been credited to us through repentance and faith, via Jesus's redemptive work on the cross - as a gift.

That's how God can declare sinful man; sinless, perfect, and without condemnation.

Budman. If you cannot walk in purity, why is Paul telling Timothy to live a pure life?

We are called to walk a particular way. You appear to be saying it is meaningless because it is not absolute perfection.
Where did you read this is scripture? Which words did Jesus say "absolute perfection" or the apostles or the law of Moses.

It sounds like you are making up your own views and measure.
Now Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, but we are not perfect. We are redeemed sinners walking in faith with is reckoned as righteousness. Our goal is to walk as Jesus walked.

This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
1 John 2:6

What you appear to be doing is saying this goal is impossible so it is a lie. You are also claiming our walk is our righteousness, rather than our faith is our righteousness, which is supported by our walk and communion with Christ.

If our walk was not founded on our communion with God, it would be a denial of the gospel and of Christ. The reason we sin is because we do not commune with God and sin brings death. So we have life through our faith and communion with God.

On your ideas we have life because of Christ and our one time faith in him, which is not a dynamic relationship and is not an eternal walk that will never end. There is actually nothing dependent on us or our faith or our continued dwelling or walking in the Spirit. Now in reality those who are called will never fall away, but then that is not what you believe.

 

[coby]

This point makes things very clear. Because your heart is cleansed and you know how to see thing without the distortions of sin or unresolved issues in your heart, does not mean you make the right choices or are guaranteed to not make mistakes.

Holiness and purity are places of being, but only give you the best opportunity to be and see things clearly.
Lucifer still fell from this position, so it is important to continue in love and know who one is and who the Lord is.

A lot of people talk as if arriving is the goal, rather than the goal has always been to serve and bring glory of our King, walking in His ways.

Yes, pressing towards the goal.
Become holy in all your walk.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.
[h=3][/h]
[h=3]1 John 1:7[/h] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[Grace777x70]

I love John 13:1-10 and how we need our daily walk cleansed by the washing of the water of the word. I watched a talk on this subject and it had an illustration of us being like a gold bar which had mud on it helped me to understand some things.

The gold bar still had it’s real value in it even though it had mud on it. Gold in the Bible speaks of God’s righteousness which of course we know He gave to us – we became the righteousness of God in Christ.

It goes on to show how the washing of the water of God’s word about righteousness and grace cleans off the mud from the gold bar which represents us.

2 Corinthians 7:1 always confused me a bit when it says to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How can we cleanse defilement in our spirit when we are righteous because of our new creation in Christ?

The verses that come before 2 Corinthians 7:1 help to put this verse in context.

I see this verse as us believing who we are in Christ now as the verse before in 2 Corinthians 6:18 says we are sons to our Father. The verses before verse 18 talk about being “separate” from the world – like what partnership does righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness..etc. ( verses 14-16 )

Cleansing the defilement from our flesh is obvious but of the spirit confused me. I think this verse is referring to how we view ourselves when defilement comes as when we viewed the mud on the gold bar. This defilement distorts our view mentally of our true selves ( the word spirit has been used in the N. T. to convey our thinking or mindset ) which we are in Christ because we are His righteousness now.

When we believe ( through the washing of the word of righteousness or hearing the word of Christ ) – we view who we really are in Christ. In this “beholding” of ourselves in Christ as in a mirror – we “become” or manifest outwardly who we really are.

Perfecting holiness in the fear of God means to me = fulfilling or accomplishing ( meaning for perfecting in greek ) our “otherness ” ( which holy really means “other” ) or separateness outwardly in the fear of God. ( Fear of God to me is realizing the awesomeness and reverence of God in His goodness ).

 

[PeterJens]

Yes, pressing towards the goal.
Become holy in all your walk.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

1 John 1:7

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

I have been struck recently about the need to share and dwell with the body. We all have many different perspectives and things chime together. We follow a Lord and a gospel which is all about communion and love, yet so often as expressed here fellowship is not high on the list.

"we have fellowship with one another" - I miss this part so often because I have not chimed or shared enough with others, and been so far away. I do not understand how I have changed, but I now see how important this is for all of us.

I know partly it is difficult because often the things of the heart are not understood or shared easily because others have their own issues. But then walking in the light helps see things correctly and so problems evaporate, and become more realistic.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think some (many?) believe in Teflon Christianity in which nothing sticks to them. Why need cleansing when you can't get dirty?

Can you name one person here who teaches that?

Strawman attacks do not help your case at all. they make you look foolish.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The faith of Christ is complete purity, and we can walk in that. So yes we can walk in complete purity. If you mean that we can and do stumble at times, that would mean that our walk isn't perfect, which is really a different matter altogether.

Not really,

If you looked at yourself in the eyes of God You would see you did a lot more than just make a boo boo or an oopsie from time to time.

That is something legalism can't see, their eyes are blind to how sinful they really are.

That's also why they talk so big. and are judgmental. Their security is in how much better they are than everyone else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's quite a contradiction ya got going on there....You say we can walk in "complete" purity, but we can "stumble" and our walk isn't "perfect".

Make up your mind.

If he did not put the word "walk" in there (ie if he did not put the word I did this and I did that)

He may finally get it..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let who is clean become more clean.

Peter was told he was clean and on the other hand:

and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren (in Dutch: have come to repentance)

How can you be more clean than "COMPLETELY CLEAN"?

That's like saying lets be more perfect..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This point makes things very clear. Because your heart is cleansed and you know how to see thing without the distortions of sin or unresolved issues in your heart, does not mean you make the right choices or are guaranteed to not make mistakes.

Holiness and purity are places of being, but only give you the best opportunity to be and see things clearly.
Lucifer still fell from this position, so it is important to continue in love and know who one is and who the Lord is.

A lot of people talk as if arriving is the goal, rather than the goal has always been to serve and bring glory of our King, walking in His ways.

That sounds like you.

Your goal is to arrive at judgment day having made yourself righteous and worthy of heaven.

For the rest of us, We humble ourselves and realize that we will never arrive worthy, So we will ask for God to save us..

That is what salvation is.

 

[coby]

How can you be more clean than "COMPLETELY CLEAN"?

That's like saying lets be more perfect..

Well the Bible says it, how, I think by becoming more holy in your walk, reaching perfection. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Jesus did that.
Even Jesus wasn't perfect. He was perfected through suffering. Paul hadn't attained perfection yet. Perfect is what we are in the end when He is all in all and we see Him as He is and there's total unity.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well the Bible says it,

It does.?

So when Jesus said you are completely clean he lied?

how, I think by becoming more holy in your walk, reaching perfection.

Do you think you can ever make it? perfection, while you walk the earth? How many people in your lifetime do you think reached this completed aspect of sanctification, and could rest from running the race because they made it to the finish line?

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Jesus did that.

Yep. Jesus did that, I and everyone I know try, Sometimes we are victorious, sometimes we fail...

Jesus is the only one who every did what God demands..

Even Jesus wasn't perfect, He was perfected through suffering.

.

WHAT?????????????????????????????????????

If Jesus was not perfect. His death was nullified, and you my sister, are dead in your sin .. and have no hope whatsoever of ever seeing heaven, let alone experienceing it.

The only hope we have is that hell is not as bad as the bible says it is.

Paul hadn't attained perfection yet. Perfect is what we are in the end when He is all in all and we see Him as He is and there's total unity.

Yes paul had not attained it yet, So who am I to think I can make what Paul could not do.

second, your right, we will never be perfect until we are eye to eye with Christ and see him as he is..

So tell me, Then how could we ever earn salvation, if we never live up to Gods standard?

 

[PeterJens]

EG - Thanks for raising the idea of goals.

A goal close to my heart is to be able to communicate the love I have for Jesus into a dynamic reality that others can understand and walk in. It is clear from the state of the church and a lot of its history many of the issues are lost, between the works rules based fulfillment to the mystical, nothing happens unless the Spirit moves.

The truth is probably in every generation there is a fulfillment of this that captures that generations way of expressing life within the constraints they have, though the actual content is always the same as taught by the Holy Spirit.

I am accused of sharing to build up my own righteousness. I am actually sharing because I have a need to share, it is called love of Jesus. It is a right thing to do, but I do it because it is a passion. Having a passion is a very emotional thing, it reinforces itself and drives you on. Over analysis does not help, being a fool for Christ does.

 

[Grace777x70]

If we don't start our Christian life where Jesus finished - we will never run well. We will be trying to accomplished something that is already done.

We reign in this life by receiving the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.

Knowing the word of righteousness that we have in Christ - this is how we grow up in Him and have our true nature that is already in us in the new creation in Christ to be seen outwardly to others so that they too may "see the Lord".

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

Well the Bible says it, how, I think by becoming more holy in your walk, reaching perfection. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Jesus did that.
Even Jesus wasn't perfect. He was perfected through suffering. Paul hadn't attained perfection yet. Perfect is what we are in the end when He is all in all and we see Him as He is and there's total unity.

In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
Heb 2:10

This is a perfect example of the problem with the word perfect.

For Christ to become the perfect sacrifice he had to suffer. Without suffering, paying the price for the effect of sin, the sacrifice would not have become eternal, once for all time.

Now Jesus was sinless, walking in communion with the Father. So Jesus was perfect as far as righteousness was concerned, but not perfect as far as the sacrifice was concerned until he suffered.

Now using this problem in language you can make a phrase appear wrong when it is 100% correct. So I wonder at the motives of someone who continually attempts this. But then maybe these concepts are beyond their understanding.

It strikes me in our walk, as it is a walk, there is always the potential for failure and success each step of the way, so certain language does not work. I cannot say how I will walk tomorrow, only what is before me today, and here I can praise the Lord and uplift His name, knowing I am pure and Holy in his sight. Now that should be enough for all of us, because that is all the Lord is saying we should expect.

It is the unbelievers, spiritists, psychics who are interested in what will happen tomorrow good or bad, while we trust the Lord who we follow and know He has a place in His heart for us and we are in the Kingdom, and He has promised to bring us to glory on the day of judgement. That is good enough for me.