Holiness or sinner

[coby]

It does.?

So when Jesus said you are completely clean he lied?



Do you think you can ever make it? perfection, while you walk the earth? How many people in your lifetime do you think reached this completed aspect of sanctification, and could rest from running the race because they made it to the finish line?




Yep. Jesus did that, I and everyone I know try, Sometimes we are victorious, sometimes we fail...

Jesus is the only one who every did what God demands..


.

WHAT?????????????????????????????????????

If Jesus was not perfect. His death was nullified, and you my sister, are dead in your sin .. and have no hope whatsoever of ever seeing heaven, let alone experienceing it.

The only hope we have is that hell is not as bad as the bible says it is.



Yes paul had not attained it yet, So who am I to think I can make what Paul could not do.

second, your right, we will never be perfect until we are eye to eye with Christ and see him as he is..

So tell me, Then how could we ever earn salvation, if we never live up to Gods standard?

It's not about earning salvation, but getting sanctified. Jesus became perfect, in the end He was perfect. He (His ego) didn't want to die. He gave over His own will completely to God, that is becoming perfect, perfectly obedient unto death. What if someone can choose: food and a mark of the beast or your head chopped off and they choose the first, then they're not obedient unto death and not saved.

Who am I to think I can attain, it's about striving for the same goal, Paul said follow me like I follow Christ. It's quite easy to say: oh Paul was so holy. I can't attain that anyway, so I'll just go fishing.
I think we can make perfection here on earth just before the rapture, not me alone, but the bride without spot or wrinkle, the mature One New Man, but that's just my opinion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG - Thanks for raising the idea of goals.

A goal close to my heart is to be able to communicate the love I have for Jesus into a dynamic reality that others can understand and walk in. It is clear from the state of the church and a lot of its history many of the issues are lost, between the works rules based fulfillment to the mystical, nothing happens unless the Spirit moves.

The truth is probably in every generation there is a fulfillment of this that captures that generations way of expressing life within the constraints they have, though the actual content is always the same as taught by the Holy Spirit.

I am accused of sharing to build up my own righteousness. I am actually sharing because I have a need to share, it is called love of Jesus. It is a right thing to do, but I do it because it is a passion. Having a passion is a very emotional thing, it reinforces itself and drives you on. Over analysis does not help, being a fool for Christ does.

You really want to share Gods love? Then share his real love, which is unconditional, not the psuedo love so many want to show him as having (a love that is conditional)

For God so loved the world (you and me) that he sent his only son (jesus) that whoever believes in him shall never die, but has (It is there's, they can keep it) eternal life.

God gave his life, so he could not only save our eternal souls. but give us life more abundantly.

anything short of this, Gives God a bad name. and does not really show his true love.

 

[coby]

Not really,

If you looked at yourself in the eyes of God You would see you did a lot more than just make a boo boo or an oopsie from time to time.

That is something legalism can't see, their eyes are blind to how sinful they really are.

That's also why they talk so big. and are judgmental. Their security is in how much better they are than everyone else.

Come on, everyone can see that I am holier than thou. I have to use a veil when I look in the mirror or my eyes get blinded.
Sorry but it's hard to humble when you're as good as me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DByDafyGzlY

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's not about earning salvation, but getting sanctified.

Thats what I have been saying all along, But thats not what others in here are trying to get you to see.

Jesus became perfect, in the end He was perfect.

Where do you get this stuff?

Jesus was perfect from the day he was born until the day he died, He did not commit one sin. Ever, if he did, Your lost and so am I, Because God rejected his sacrifice. The guilty can not redeem the guilty.

He (His ego) didn't want to die. He gave over His own will completely to God, that is becoming perfect, perfectly obedient unto death. What if someone can choose: food and a mark of the beast or your head chopped off and they choose the first, then they're not obedient unto death and not saved.

Not wanting to suffer is not sin, It is a normal thing, God never intended it to be that way.

Not acting, now that is a different topic.

Who am I to think I can attain, it's about striving for the same goal, Paul said follow me like I follow Christ. It's quite easy to say: oh Paul was so holy. I can't attain that anyway, so I'll just go fishing.

Can you attain perfection or not? That is all I am asking.

I think we can make perfection here on earth just before the rapture, not me alone, but the bride without spot or wrinkle, the mature One New Man, but that's just my opinion.

So what about all the people that did not make it to rapture? Are they in hell because they did not obtain perfection?

 

[PeterJens]

Gods love is Gods love. God is love.
If this love meant everything is acceptable, all would be saved, righteousness would not be an issue.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

Eternal life, not being destroyed in the second death, being burnt up in the lake of fire, is conditional on belief.

Gods unconditional love sent Jesus for sinners, yet it is bounded by the condition of faith.

So in the very breadth you say Gods love is unconditional you quote a conditional verse. That is a contradiction.
Or has logic left your ability to reason.

I have seen this before where to question someones simple words is wrong, not the fact they cannot reason properly.
Sorry to be blunt, but it just looks stupid.

 

[coby]

Thats what I have been saying all along, But thats not what others in here are trying to get you to see.

Where do you get this stuff?

Jesus was perfect from the day he was born until the day he died, He did not commit one sin. Ever, if he did, Your lost and so am I, Because God rejected his sacrifice. The guilty can not redeem the guilty.




Not wanting to suffer is not sin, It is a normal thing, God never intended it to be that way.

Not acting, now that is a different topic.



Can you attain perfection or not? That is all I am asking.


So what about all the people that did not make it to rapture? Are they in hell because they did not obtain perfection?

Where did I get this stuff? Well one day I saw that text that Jesus was perfected which baffled me. He was Always sinless, but made perfect through suffering, so we could become perfect: free from the will of the flesh.
I think we can attain it yes. Never heard that dream of that giant bound by tiny demons and then he stood up and it became a perfect spotless bride who got raptured? The texts seem to indicate it, the mature sons of God that will stand up.
No they're not in hell of course.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gods love is Gods love. God is love.
If this love meant everything is acceptable, all would be saved, righteousness would not be an issue.

Saying God loves unconditionally is not saying God is saying everything is acceptable.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

Eternal life, not being destroyed in the second death, being burnt up in the lake of fire, is conditional on belief.

Gods unconditional love sent Jesus for sinners, yet it is bounded by the condition of faith.

So in the very breadth you say Gods love is unconditional you quote a conditional verse. That is a contradiction.
Or has logic left your ability to reason.

How is it a contradiction?

Gods love is unconditional. But he will not force it on us, or make us take it, he wants us to trust him, and receive it freely.

The promise is he gave us eternal life based on what he did, No matter what we have done, or will do.. Because he knows we will never live up to his standard (perfection) so he loved us, and died for us.

No greater love has any man than he give his life for the one he loves..

Thats God..

And he does not make you pay for his love, HE PAID FOR IT HIMSELF.

Mans love is I will love you as long as you give me and pay for it, Once you stop doing that, I will give my love to someone who deserves it.

That is not Love, That is manipulation and that is how the world loves.

I have seen this before where to question someones simple words is wrong, not the fact they cannot reason properly.
Sorry to be blunt, but it just looks stupid.

Sorry to be blunt, But you made a stupid argument, because like you always do, You do not bother to read and contemplate what a person said.

You so hell bent on proving me wrong, you will spend hours if you have to finding one thing that may be wrong in what I said, Then you make silly comments like this, And say I contradicted myself.

Whatever man..


I guess Jesus lied.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where did I get this stuff? Well one day I saw that tekst that Jesus was perfected which baffled me. He was Always sinless, but made perfect through suffering,

So he was always sinless (perfect) but was made perfect in suffering.

This makes no sense at all..

so we could become perfect: free from the will of the flesh.
I think we can attain it yes. Never heard that dream of that giant bound by tiny demons and then he stood up and it became a perfect spotless bride who got raptured? The texts seem to indicate it, the mature sons of God that will stand up.
No they're not in hell of course.

so what happens if you do not attain it?

And by the way, Paul never attained it,, Why do you think you can do what Paul never did?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Budman. If you cannot walk in purity, why is Paul telling Timothy to live a pure life?

We are called to walk a particular way. You appear to be saying it is meaningless because it is not absolute perfection.
Where did you read this is scripture? Which words did Jesus say "absolute perfection" or the apostles or the law of Moses.

It sounds like you are making up your own views and measure.
Now Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, but we are not perfect. We are redeemed sinners walking in faith with is reckoned as righteousness. Our goal is to walk as Jesus walked.

I think that this is a spirit of unbelief that has been baked into most of western Christian theology through the Augustinian concept of total depravity.

 

[PeterJens]

EG I am not wanting to prove you wrong.

Gods love given to man is only till judgement day. The door is open to that point. After that it is closed.

And the condition on man is that he believes on Christ and repents. Now some have said all sin is actually forgiven so the repentance is only of unbelief in Christ. Grace7x77 is following this line. Ben holds to talking about law brings condemnation.

Now Peter emphasises walking in righteousness and not walking in sin anymore. This is changed into not walking in unbelief anymore, so it nullifies the possibility of believers falling away, unless they fall into unbelief. Does not work so well then.

One point readers miss this is not point scoring or proving yourself right, this is a discussion about life and death, eternity and salvation. We all have a stake in the outcome. If the argument does not work for me, I will simply tell you why. I cannot do anything else. Now the reason I am so anchored in my viewpoint is because I am anchored in real life, real relationships and what love means. Mans love reflects the source Gods love. People express all aspects of love in their lives, and even die for their friends. Jesus used this language himself, finishing with no one dies for their enemies, as Jesus did.

A live seed needs to produce live growth with live fruit. This is how we know we are in the Kingdom. Now everyone takes the words the way they want, but Jesus says this simply time and again. All I can do is repeat these simple principles.

What Peter shows is it happens, so amen, do not worry, just walk in it. Somehow this is not enough, but hey I am only a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ and His love, expressed through the cross. Please show me where I have got it wrong.

If the bible confirms all I say, you have to argue with the bible not me. When you get the bible and the Holy Spirit to agree I will happily say Amen. But as Grace7x77 keeps saying "use the lens", sounds very much like distort the words with another meaning, and magically another gospel pops out.

 

[coby]

So he was always sinless (perfect) but was made perfect in suffering.

This makes no sense at all..



so what happens if you do not attain it?

And by the way, Paul never attained it,, Why do you think you can do what Paul never did?

Sinless is not the same as perfect. If you do not attain it you attain it in the end with the rest. Because then the church wasn't mature and the One New Man in Christ and there was no total unity.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

I'm not sure when this is:

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG I am not wanting to prove you wrong.

Gods love given to man is only till judgement day. The door is open to that point. After that it is closed.

]

So Gods love is closed after judgment day?

What then, he returns to the God satan depicted him to be?? What, I dont get this..

And the condition on man is that he believes on Christ and repents. Now some have said all sin is actually forgiven so the repentance is only of unbelief in Christ. Grace7x77 is following this line. Ben holds to talking about law brings condemnation.

Now Peter emphasises walking in righteousness and not walking in sin anymore. This is changed into not walking in unbelief anymore, so it nullifies the possibility of believers falling away, unless they fall into unbelief. Does not work so well then.

One point readers miss this is not point scoring or proving yourself right, this is a discussion about life and death, eternity and salvation. We all have a stake in the outcome. If the argument does not work for me, I will simply tell you why. I cannot do anything else. Now the reason I am so anchored in my viewpoint is because I am anchored in real life, real relationships and what love means. Mans love reflects the source Gods love. People express all aspects of love in their lives, and even die for their friends. Jesus used this language himself, finishing with no one dies for their enemies, as Jesus did.

A live seed needs to produce live growth with live fruit. This is how we know we are in the Kingdom. Now everyone takes the words the way they want, but Jesus says this simply time and again. All I can do is repeat these simple principles.

What Peter shows is it happens, so amen, do not worry, just walk in it. Somehow this is not enough, but hey I am only a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ and His love, expressed through the cross. Please show me where I have got it wrong.

If the bible confirms all I say, you have to argue with the bible not me. When you get the bible and the Holy Spirit to agree I will happily say Amen. But as Grace7x77 keeps saying "use the lens", sounds very much like distort the words with another meaning, and magically another gospel pops out.

If you think Gods love will ever end, You do not understand Gods love at all.

If I love my son, and he choses to disobey me, and gdts killed doing it.

I still love my son, He is still my son.

 

[gb9]

EG I am not wanting to prove you wrong.

Gods love given to man is only till judgement day. The door is open to that point. After that it is closed.

And the condition on man is that he believes on Christ and repents. Now some have said all sin is actually forgiven so the repentance is only of unbelief in Christ. Grace7x77 is following this line. Ben holds to talking about law brings condemnation.

Now Peter emphasises walking in righteousness and not walking in sin anymore. This is changed into not walking in unbelief anymore, so it nullifies the possibility of believers falling away, unless they fall into unbelief. Does not work so well then.

One point readers miss this is not point scoring or proving yourself right, this is a discussion about life and death, eternity and salvation. We all have a stake in the outcome. If the argument does not work for me, I will simply tell you why. I cannot do anything else. Now the reason I am so anchored in my viewpoint is because I am anchored in real life, real relationships and what love means. Mans love reflects the source Gods love. People express all aspects of love in their lives, and even die for their friends. Jesus used this language himself, finishing with no one dies for their enemies, as Jesus did.

A live seed needs to produce live growth with live fruit. This is how we know we are in the Kingdom. Now everyone takes the words the way they want, but Jesus says this simply time and again. All I can do is repeat these simple principles.

What Peter shows is it happens, so amen, do not worry, just walk in it. Somehow this is not enough, but hey I am only a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ and His love, expressed through the cross. Please show me where I have got it wrong.

If the bible confirms all I say, you have to argue with the bible not me. When you get the bible and the Holy Spirit to agree I will happily say Amen. But as Grace7x77 keeps saying "use the lens", sounds very much like distort the words with another meaning, and magically another gospel pops out.

these things are true. but, they are the outcome of being saved, not the cause. this is the sticking point. salvation is not earned by obeying, obeying follows salvation.

I can say this because for many years of my life, I believed there was a God, he had a Son, the Son died and did came back to life. I believed these things, but did not care much what Jesus was really all about. when I came to him, I wanted him to be my Lord and Savior, and do what he said. hope that makes sense.

 

[Willie-T]

If we could only get past... "I believe and trust totally... BUT........... "

 

[gb9]

If we could only get past... "I believe and trust totally... BUT........... "

wish I could like this about 100 times.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we could only get past... "I believe and trust totally... BUT........... "

Mark 9:24
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

Thank God for his unconditional love, who heals us even when we say, I believe, but....

 

[PeterJens]

]
So Gods love is closed after judgment day?

You do not do very well with simple ideas. A sinner has till judgement day to repent, or more precisely to the day they die or before Jesus returns. Then judgement falls.

At that point blessing is taken away and the lake of fire is for everyone not written in the book of life.

God is love, so ofcourse love does not stop, but love has finished for judged people.

Or are you preaching something else?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You do not do very well with simple ideas. A sinner has till judgement day to repent, or more precisely to the day they die or before Jesus returns. Then judgement falls.

Well I could have assumed what you said like you do me, But I wanted to reiterate first.

I disagree, Gods love still is there, He just allowed the person to chose to reject his love, Gods love never stops.

At that point blessing is taken away and the lake of fire is for everyone not written in the book of life.

God is love, so ofcourse love does not stop, but love has finished for judged people.

God still loves them,, Please do not insult God like that..

They chose their bed, He in love, let them sleep in the bed they chose..



I preach the truth, God loves unconditionally.

 

[PeterJens]

these things are true. but, they are the outcome of being saved, not the cause. this is the sticking point. salvation is not earned by obeying, obeying follows salvation.

I can say this because for many years of my life, I believed there was a God, he had a Son, the Son died and did came back to life. I believed these things, but did not care much what Jesus was really all about. when I came to him, I wanted him to be my Lord and Savior, and do what he said. hope that makes sense.

Thankyou. And yes spiritual reality only comes after being saved. I would not share as I do unless the Lord had given me new life. There are some here who doubt that because I do not agree with them, but thankfully I have a bigger view of Gods love than they do.

I wonder why people believe I am preaching works salvation because I continually say faith in Christ alone, trust Him, walk in the Spirit, Jesus plants love in your heart, you conquer sin by communion with God. This is what being saved means. But maybe you guys really do not even understand this first step.

Do you feel you are in Gods plan or in the broken world?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thankyou. And yes spiritual reality only comes after being saved. I would not share as I do unless the Lord had given me new life. There are some here who doubt that because I do not agree with them, but thankfully I have a bigger view of Gods love than they do.

I wonder why people believe I am preaching works salvation because I continually say faith in Christ alone, trust Him, walk in the Spirit, Jesus plants love in your heart, you conquer sin by communion with God. This is what being saved means. But maybe you guys really do not even understand this first step.

Do you feel you are in Gods plan or in the broken world?

Your view of Gods love,

1. God adopts a child
2. Child does not live up to Gods standard (whatever standard you happen to impose)
3. God kicks child out of his family

Please stop. You do not have a bigger view of Gods love than most people in here.. You view of Gods love is tainted, and human.